WHY IS THE CHURCH GOING OUT BACKWARD?

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Truther

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If you reject the Nicene/Constantinople Creeds then you reject the book of Acts. You can't have it both ways. The Church is apostolic because Christ founded it upon the Apostles. the selection of Matthias to succeed Judas (Acts 1:16-26). That includes taking note that the word for “office” in 1:20 is episkopos: the word for “bishop.” Thus, we have some sort of equation of apostles and bishops, which is necessary, for we believe that bishops are indeed the successors of (but not identical to) the apostles.

This is the point where you deviate from Acts, and deny succession in Acts 1:16-26.

The argument stems from how the Jerusalem council (Acts 15:1-32; 16:4) is presented in Holy Scripture. Note the high authority of the Jerusalem council, guided by the Holy Spirit Himself (15:28) This is why we deem the Jerusalem Council as infallible, a term incomprehensible to sola scripturists and Modalists. It was infallible because the Holy Spirit was there, as Acts 15:29 clearly states. Changing the meaning of infallibility is a dishonest self-created stumbling block to it's true meaning. You deny the infallibility of the council of Jerusalem by ignoring Acts 15:29.

The Apostle Paul “delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (16:4; RSV, as throughout). This is the very opposite of sola Scriptura modes of thought. The Jerusalem council doesn't even seem (from what we know) to have been primarily concerned with biblical arguments and justifications. But however the decision was arrived at, regarding abstaining “from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity” (15:28), and the non-necessity of circumcision (15:5), it was authoritative and binding. As such, it is a compelling biblical argument for an infallible Church and against sola Scriptura, which precisely denies this.

Now I will be using it as an argument for apostolic succession, too. Here is how it works: the Jerusalem council presents “apostles” and “elders” in conjunction six times:

Acts 15:2 . . . Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

Acts 15:4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, . . .

Acts 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.

Acts 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, . . .

Acts 15:23. . . “The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili'cia, . . .

Acts 16:4 . . . they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.

“Elders” here is the Greek presbuteros, which referred to a leader of a local congregation, so that Protestants think of it primarily as a “pastor”, whereas Catholics, Orthodox, and some Anglicans regard it as the equivalent of “priest.” In any event, all agree that it is a lower office in the scheme of things than an apostle: even arguably lower than a bishop (which is mentioned several times in the New Testament). No matter what word games you wish to play or bible versions you prefer, all agree that it is a lower office in the scheme of things than an apostle.

What is striking, then, is that the two offices in the Jerusalem council are presented as if there is little or no distinction between them, at least in terms of their practical authority. Note there is no mention of common believers present at this council, just apostles and elders.

Therefore, if such a momentous, binding decision was arrived at by apostles and elders, it sure seems to suggest what Catholics believe: that bishops are successors of the apostles. We already see the two offices working together in Jerusalem and making a joint decision. It's a concrete example of precisely what the Catholic Church claims about apostolic succession and the sublime authority conveyed therein. Again, you deviate from Acts you claim to adhere to.
There are three additional sub-arguments that I submit for consideration:

1) The council, by joint authority of apostles and elders, sent off Judas and Silas as its messengers, even though they “were themselves prophets” (15:32). Prophets were the highest authorities in the old covenant (with direct messages from God), and here mere “elders” are commissioning them.

2) St. Paul himself is duty-bound to the council's decree (16:4), which was decided in part by mere elders. So this implies apostolic succession (and conciliarism), if elders can participate in such high authority that even apostles must obey it.

3) Paul previously “had no small dissension and debate” with the circumcision party (15:1-2), but was unable to resolve the conflict by his own profound apostolic authority. Instead, he had to go to the council, where apostles and elders decided the question. All he is reported as doing there is reporting about “signs and wonders” in his ministry (15:12). He's not the leader or even a key figure. This is not what the Protestant “Paulinist” view would have predicted.
I reject all extra Biblical doctrines and creeds, and only adhere to scripture.

This contradicts the entire program of the RCC.

The RCC was founded on creeds, as you so eloquently just showed me.
 

Truther

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WOW... that is about all I can say... and your defence will undoubtedly win to keep him here ... the fact that you enjoy this rude banter is well.... INTERESTING.... I will just make a note to stay out of conversations that the two of you engage in... HOWEVER... with respect to common courtesy... I think these fowl exchanges would do better in private message... but WHATEVER... I can't take back the fact that I contacted Administration already... How sad that you promote engaging with someone who is ARROGANT and RUDE with his words.

This little lamb is so confused at what Christians seem to think is ACCEPTABLE behaviour.
Here is why I dabble with BOL.

He is a lost soul.

He get's pounded scripturally by 100% of my posts.

He will eventually succumb to his wounds, then repent, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins, then for the 1st time in his life, receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

This is called "unchurching" and "rechurching" a person.

Some are easy, but some are tough cookies to crack.

I specialize in the tough ones.:)
 

Truther

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I see you’re still under the delusion that the Bride of Christ is your online paramilitary cult - aggressivechristianity.net”.
Not so, my confused friend.

Their beginnings can only be traced back to 1980unlike the Catholic Church, which can be traced ALL the way back to the Apostles . . .
The Roman Catholic Church is straight out of Rome, not Acts.

You are a ROMAN Catholic, so be proud of your headship.

Constantine loves you.
 

BreadOfLife

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You are silly again.
Many receive the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism.
The promise was the Holy Ghost, not the promise that God would let them baptize each other in water.
Lol
The example s of the Holy Spirit being bestowed upon some prior to Baptism in the NT was the exception and NOT the norm.
That’s where YOU do off the rails . . .

Simple hermeneutical rule:
NEVER form your doctrines around the exception . . .
 

Truther

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The example s of the Holy Spirit being bestowed upon some prior to Baptism in the NT was the exception and NOT the norm.
That’s where YOU do off the rails . . .

Simple hermeneutical rule:
NEVER form your doctrines around the exception . . .
I beaned you with that scripture of Jesus promising the Holy Ghost.

You went back to the dugout with a concussion.

They had to send in an unnamed pinch runner, which I will pick off on first.

You are being shut out.
 

Truther

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That promise is the Holy Ghost, not water baptism.

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high...

....and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 

BreadOfLife

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The Roman Catholic Church is straight out of Rome, not Acts.

You are a ROMAN Catholic, so be proud of your headship.

Constantine loves you.
That’s fine – because I don’t belong to the “Roman” Catholic Church. I’m not even sure if that entity exists. MY Church – the Church that goes ALL the way back to the Apostles is “The Catholic Church”.

“Roman” simply refers to the Liturgical Rite that I belong to – of which there are some TWENTY others that comprise the ONE Catholic Church.

Do your homework, Einstein . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I beaned you with that scripture of Jesus promising the Holy Ghost.

You went back to the dugout with a concussion.

They had to send in an unnamed pinch runner, which I will pick off on first.

You are being shut out.
Yup, I guess I'd resort to idiotic baseball euphemisms too, if I just lost an argument . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Do you think you are the first to say what you said to BOL He has being around here forever. Left more spiritually broken bruised people in his wake than any other i know. And he is actually being "nice" right now.
Only the ones I catch lying.
I leave everybody else alone . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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Do you think you are the first to say what you said to BOL He has being around here forever. Left more spiritually broken bruised people in his wake than any other i know. And he is actually being "nice" right now.
WELL then... perhaps he has met his match... as I dislike bullies... with a passion... and I am not afraid of them. When a Christian comes in here and behaves like this person does... it sets a very BAD example. This thread NEEDS to be shut down.
No “bullies” here. As I’ve warned BOTH of you – don’t LIE – and you’ll never hear from me.

A bully is a person who unfairly assaults a weaker person for NO reason other than to show how “tough” he is. All I’m doing is holding you accountable for your nonsense - unless you think you ARE weaker and that there's nothing wrong with lying . . .

Do the math. This is essentially a Protestant forum. I disagree with MOST people here on a doctrinal level – but I don’t debate with everybody. I ONLY debate the ones who lie about or misrepresent the Catholic Church.

I do, however, get involved in political threads here on occasion . . .
 

Truther

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That’s fine – because I don’t belong to the “Roman” Catholic Church. I’m not even sure if that entity exists. MY Church – the Church that goes ALL the way back to the Apostles is “The Catholic Church”.

“Roman” simply refers to the Liturgical Rite that I belong to – of which there are some TWENTY others that comprise the ONE Catholic Church.

Do your homework, Einstein . . .
Oh yes you do...you are ROMAN Catholic, not just "Catholic".

Your mother is in Rome, and how dare you distance yourself from mama.

The Pope is your Shepherd, and he reigns over you from...ROME.

So, every time I think of the RCC, I think of you...
 

Marymog

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Here is why I dabble with BOL.

He is a lost soul.

He get's pounded scripturally by 100% of my posts.

He will eventually succumb to his wounds, then repent, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins, then for the 1st time in his life, receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

This is called "unchurching" and "rechurching" a person.

Some are easy, but some are tough cookies to crack.

I specialize in the tough ones.:)
How do you determine who is a lost soul?

Is their some criteria?

You can use @BreadOfLife or me as an example. What doctrine do we hold that makes us a lost soul?

Thank you in advance..... Mary
 

mjrhealth

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A bully is a person who unfairly assaults a weaker person for NO reason other than to show how “tough” he is. All I’m doing is holding you accountable for your nonsense - unless you think you ARE weaker and that there's nothing wrong with lying . .
Dont worry God will call you to account for every word you have spoken.
 

BreadOfLife

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Dont worry God will call you to account for every word you have spoken.
Yes He will.

That’s why I don’t let you guys get away will telling lies about his Church. He’ll ask me why I stood by and said nothing in witness to Him – so I stand up for his truth . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Oh yes you do...you are ROMAN Catholic, not just "Catholic".

Your mother is in Rome, and how dare you distance yourself from mama.

The Pope is your Shepherd, and he reigns over you from...ROME.

So, every time I think of the RCC, I think of you...
Oh, make NO mistake – I AM Roman Catholic. But that’s NOT the name of the Church, Einstein.
It’s the Liturgical Rite.

Do your homework, dude.
Ignorant and clueless is NO way to go through life, son . . .
 

Jay Ross

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Has anyone considered that God's Church is not going backwards as it is marching forwards towards fulfilling it called purposes.

The people in their respective "churches" are not necessarily part of God's Church and this can be seen in the fruit output of what they do. Many churches today are going backwards with a few pews only filled with snowy haired people. I have snowy hair and I often weep while sitting in the churches that I attend grieving in my spirit.

The question is, "Why is this so?" Because God's spirit does not rest in these churches today.
 

BreadOfLife

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Here is why I dabble with BOL.

He is a lost soul.

He get's pounded scripturally by 100% of my posts.

He will eventually succumb to his wounds, then repent, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins, then for the 1st time in his life, receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

This is called "unchurching" and "rechurching" a person.

Some are easy, but some are tough cookies to crack.

I specialize in the tough ones.:)
I think Barney Fife just entered the room . . .
latest
 
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mjrhealth

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Yes He will.

That’s why I don’t let you guys get away will telling lies about his Church. He’ll ask me why I stood by and said nothing in witness to Him – so I stand up for his truth . . .
Oh you do carry on.