Christ vs. the Torah

[Randy Kluth]

I was discussing with some Messianic Jews whether the Torah is still valid. And these brothers still see the Torah as belonging to the Jews, and still valid for them. I informed them that animal sacrifices were temporary forms of atonement, that a better covenant was needed that could cover Israel forever--even in times of failure in their covenant with God. They disagreed, insisting that nothing in the Bible indicates the Law was "temporary." Here is what I said:


Yes, we disagree. I find that the NT apostles taught that the Law was only until Christ died on the cross, producing final atonement. Animal sacrifices had been intended by God only to be temporary.

Heb 8.6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises... 9.8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.... 23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.... 10.1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

The temple system was curtailed by God for 2 reasons.
1) Israel failed, during the worst time in her history, their covenant with God.
2) Animal sacrifices were never intended to complete atonement for Israel, which had to cover Israel both in their best times and in their worst times. It had to cover Israel even when they were unworthy of their covenant with God.

Thus, the animal sacrifices and the temple system were always intended to be temporary, because they could not cover Israel during the time of their worst sins and during their failure in maintaining covenant with God. Christ fulfilled that role.

Do you agree or disagree with how I depict this reason for a change in covenants?

 

[justbyfaith]

Hebrews 7:12 shows clearly that with a change in priesthood there would come also a change in law (for our Lord sprang out of Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And therefore, Jesus, in order for Him to be High Priest, as He is High Priest, must be High Priest according to a different priesthood than that of Aaron, the priesthood of Melchizedec).

This change in law has to do with

1) that the Old Testament sacrifices are fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross; and,

2) the moral laws are no longer binding according to the letter (except for those who are seeking to obtain their salvation through law-keeping); however, we obey them according to the spirit or tenor of what is written (Romans 7:6). There is also no condemnation from the law from the outside (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19); but rather we are governed by it from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4); as commandments written on fleshy tables of human hearts (2 Corinthians 3:3).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hebrews 7:12 shows clearly that with a change in priesthood there would come also a change in law (for our Lord sprang out of Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And therefore, Jesus, in order for Him to be High Priest, as He is High Priest, must be High Priest according to a different priesthood than that of Aaron, the priesthood of Melchizedec).

This change in law has to do with

1) that the Old Testament sacrifices are fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross; and,

2) the moral laws are no longer binding according to the letter; however, we obey them according to the spirit or tenor of what is written (Romans 7:6). There is also no condemnation from the law from the outside (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19); but rather we are governed by it from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4); as commandments written on fleshy tables of human hearts (2 Corinthians 3:3).

I would agree mostly with the sentiment expressed here. The only concern I may have is with the possible confusion between the Law of God as a covenant and the Law of God as a universal requirement of human behavior. They are not the same.

The Law of Moses is a covenant that has passed away. But the Law of God is, apart from any covenant, a universal, eternal reality that is fulfilled within those of us who follow Christ. We follow what the Law externally exemplified. That seems to be what you're saying. If so, we agree.

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that the law is written on the hearts and in the minds of New Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4).

So the law of God as a universal requirement on human behaviour is a part of the New Covenant (not just the Old).

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Paul tells us that the Jews “ have a Zeal for the things of God, but without Knowledge”
Nothing has changed....they are still trying to establish “ Their Own Righteousness” via obedience to the Law—- No different than those who may call themselves “ Christians” but are not......they are Religionists who Ape the Ways and behaviors of True Christians without possessing the Secret Thing That is responsible for the New and Improved Ways and Behaviors Of those that are True Born-Again Children. The Secret is Something God kept secret for Millenia—- Christ IN You.....If you lack that— “ you are NONE of His”.......

 

[Randy Kluth]

Paul tells us that the Jews “ have a Zeal for the things of God, but without Knowledge”
Nothing has changed....they are still trying to establish “ Their Own Righteousness” via obedience to the Law—- No different than those who may call themselves “ Christians” but are not......they are Religionists who Ape the Ways and behaviors of True Christians without possessing the Secret Thing That is responsible for the New and Improved Ways and Behaviors Of those that are True Born-Again Children. The Secret is Something God kept secret for Millenia—- Christ IN You.....If you lack that— “ you are NONE of His”.......

If you approach unbelievers as a group that is perpetually in defiance of God you will not find them listening to you, and for good reason.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

If you approach unbelievers as a group that is perpetually in defiance of God you will not find them listening to you, and for good reason.

Interesting.....care to elaborate?

 

[Joseph77]

Animal sacrifices had been intended by God only to be temporary.

Concerning sin, this at least is true.
=======================================

Do you agree or disagree with how I depict this reason for a change in covenants?

Yes, we disagree. I find that the NT apostles taught that the Law was only until Christ died on the cross, producing final atonement.

Not one of Jesus' followers , Apostles or permanent disciples, born again in Him, set apart by the Father for Himself,

ever said the Torah was only until Christ died on the cross.

Jesus Himself said completely different also - so the disagreement is with what God revealed in and through Jesus and Jesus' Own Words.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Concerning sin, this at least is true.
=======================================



Not one of Jesus' followers , Apostles or permanent disciples, born again in Him, set apart by the Father for Himself,

ever said the Torah was only until Christ died on the cross.

Jesus Himself said completely different also - so the disagreement is with what God revealed in and through Jesus and Jesus' Own Words.

God found “ Fault” with the Old Covenant, so He devised a “New and Better” One.....The Cross changed everything.....mainly for our own Good.......thank God that He did it...

 

[Joseph77]

The crucifixion did not change Torah - as Jesus Himself said it did not.
Only a Perfect Sacrifice for sin, Jesus Himself, was made once for all as written, eliminating the animal sacrifices for sin.
And a PERMANENT HIGH PRIEST, BY PROMISE, JESUS MESSIAH, as written,
instead of sinful high priests who had to offer offerings for themselves first, repeatedly, as written...

 

[justbyfaith]

The crucifixion did not change Torah - as Jesus Himself said it did not.

The crucifixion did not subtract from the Torah.

Change it, it did (Hebrews 7:12).

 

[Joseph77]

The crucifixion did not change Torah - as Jesus Himself said it did not.
Only a Perfect Sacrifice for sin, Jesus Himself, was made once for all as written, eliminating the animal sacrifices for sin.
And a PERMANENT HIGH PRIEST, BY PROMISE, JESUS MESSIAH, as written,
instead of sinful high priests who had to offer offerings for themselves first, repeatedly, as written...

 

[Joseph77]

Matthew 5:
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the ...

Tradition and the doctrines of the enemy of course say otherwise.

 

[justbyfaith]

Heb 7:11, If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12, For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13, For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14, For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

 

[Joseph77]

Cool - copy paste what you do not understand yet..... the "change" is from human high priests to

the PROMISED MESSIAH JESUS is HIGH PRIEST. (all with Torah remaining rock solid - no change in Torah) Sinning against Torah is still sinning against Torah -
(or perhaps better said - sinning against God is still transgressing Torah; transgressions are the breaking of Torah....

transgressions are still transgressions as God says in Torah, Psalms, Prophets, and New Testament.

 

[justbyfaith]

The change in law has to do with moving from being bound to the letter to being obedient to the spirit of what is written (Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

This is not a Calvary Chapel teaching as far as I know...

But as believers in Christ, we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), we are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and we are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6).

As such, as concerning condemnation, it is as if there is no law (because the law does not apply as concerning condemnation).

Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13; Romans 4:8.

This does not mean however, that as believers in Christ we are not governed by the law.

We are governed by the law from the inside as born again believers (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4);

as written on fleshy tables of human hearts (2 Corinthians 3:3).

 

[Joseph77]

(what do those references say ? without printing it out, we don't see what you mean there)

If you disobey Torah, you are not obedient in spirit nor in truth - no one who disobeys Torah is "obedient in the spirit" ...

 

[justbyfaith]

(what do those references say ? without printing it out, we don't see what you mean there)

If you disobey Torah, you are not obedient in spirit nor in truth - no one who disobeys Torah is "obedient in the spirit" ...

Was Jesus disobedient in spirit when He violated sabbath in John 5:1-18?

(again, I was not taught about this by Calvary Chapel; but learned it in personal reading and Bible Study).

 

[justbyfaith]

(what do those references say ? without printing it out, we don't see what you mean there)

I can see that you are not a serious Bible student (because you are not willing to take out your Bible and look up the verses).