The Devils Believe...are they damned?

[whirlwind]

• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
• 
  James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils know there is One True God...they believe but they aren't baptized in His Spirit. So, they aren't saved but...if I understand the above correctly, nor are they damned.

What if the devils mentioned by James are those that believe, believe they are of God and are not...are not truly baptized in the Spirit. They aren't saved, even though they believe they are...nor are they damned. As James was teaching about faith and works...are the devils those that believe and offer no works, here synonymous with faith?

• James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

That doesn't seem to be what James is implying by his use of "devils" but...how else can one understand both verses?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hi Whirlwind,
There is a good range of commentaries at the following link:

http://www.searchgodsword.org/

I've looked at a few to refresh myself on the issue of demons and the two verses you refer to in your question.

He that believes and is baptised will be saved - good - but if someone that believes not is baptised - bad - not saved so therefore dammed. These are the only two states of existence.

The context of James 2:19 is faith without works - the works of demons are Satanic - they believe there is one God but they are in rebellion against Him - and tremble because their faith is not accompanied by obedient works and as James warns "faith without works is dead",

Matthew 8:29
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

- thus we learn that a person having "faith only" is not better than a condemned demon, nor has he any better hope of salvation.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi Stumpmaster, if God came to you and said, go hither, and you went in " faith", then the works will follow, if they dont then their is no faith and you are probably walking in the flesh. Your own works cannot save you, and baptism has nothing to do with salvation, ay man who cires out can be saved, Jesus will not deny Himself, not like us, His only requirement is that we believe. Jesus did all the work that is necessary for salvation, and adding another $5 just means that to you, His price was not high enough.

In His LOve

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hi Stumpmaster, if God came to you and said, go hither, and you went in " faith", then the works will follow, if they dont then their is no faith and you are probably walking in the flesh. Your own works cannot save you, and baptism has nothing to do with salvation, ay man who cires out can be saved, Jesus will not deny Himself, not like us, His only requirement is that we believe. Jesus did all the work that is necessary for salvation, and adding another $5 just means that to you, His price was not high enough.

In His LOve

I take it you don't accept the authenticity and inspiration of James. As for the rest of your post, it is a man of straw.

 

[whirlwind]

Hi Whirlwind,
There is a good range of commentaries at the following link:

http://www.searchgodsword.org/

I've looked at a few to refresh myself on the issue of demons and the two verses you refer to in your question.

He that believes and is baptised will be saved - good - but if someone that believes not is baptised - bad - not saved so therefore dammed. These are the only two states of existence.

The context of James 2:19 is faith without works - the works of demons are Satanic - they believe there is one God but they are in rebellion against Him - and tremble because their faith is not accompanied by obedient works and as James warns "faith without works is dead",

Matthew 8:29
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

- thus we learn that a person having "faith only" is not better than a condemned demon, nor has he any better hope of salvation.

Thank you Stumpmaster....I still have a question though. It isn't written that those that believe have to also obey and follow in order to not be damned. Just that "he that believeth not shall be damned." The devils believe. They aren't saved but...are they damned?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Thank you Stumpmaster....I still have a question though.  It isn't written that those that believe have to also obey and follow in order to not be damned.  Just that "he that believeth not shall be damned."  The devils believe.  They aren't saved but...are they damned? 

I teach a system of Bible Study which asks three questions:
1. What does the Bible say?
2. What does it mean?
3. How do I apply it?

Careful reading of passages takes time, so does researching for meaning. I once found six different explanations of the same passage and asked the Holy Spirit what I should understand about it and came to a suitable conclusion as a result. Often meanings are implied but not literally stated. This is acceptable and I have been taught this is an inspired method of communication throughout the Bible.

Jesus was casting demons out and they knew who He was. He gives us insight into their nature and the weight of evidence is that they have no place in His kingdom.

Matthew 12:43-45
(43) When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.
(44) Then he says, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he finds it empty, swept, and garnished.
(45) Then goes he, and takes with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mark 1:23-27
(23) And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
(24) Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, thou Jesus of Nazareth? are you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.
(25) And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold your peace, and come out of him.
(26) And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
(27) And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandsHe even the unclean spirits, and they do obey Him.

1John 3:8-10
(8) He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(9) Whosoever is born of God dooes not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

 

[whirlwind]

I teach a system of Bible Study which asks three questions:
1. What does the Bible say?
2. What does it mean?
3. How do I apply it?

Careful reading of passages takes time, so does researching for meaning. I once found six different explanations of the same passage and asked the Holy Spirit what I should understand about it and came to a suitable conclusion as a result. Often meanings are implied but not literally stated. This is acceptable and I have been taught this is an inspired method of communication throughout the Bible.

Jesus was casting demons out and they knew who He was. He gives us insight into their nature and the weight of evidence is that they have no place in His kingdom.

Matthew 12:43-45
(43) When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.
(44) Then he says, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he finds it empty, swept, and garnished.
(45) Then goes he, and takes with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mark 1:23-27
(23) And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
(24) Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, thou Jesus of Nazareth? are you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.
(25) And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold your peace, and come out of him.
(26) And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
(27) And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandsHe even the unclean spirits, and they do obey Him.

1John 3:8-10
(8) He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(9) Whosoever is born of God dooes not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Again...thank you StumpMaster,

In searching I found an answer, at least one that answers for me. First, we have.....

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

And then we have what must be believed....

2 Thessalonians 2:11-13 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

So, the belief must be in truth. As the gospel is truth......

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth​

.

Then the believing that must be done to not be damned is...in the gospel, in the truth. Although He is the Word, He is the gospel, there is belief in Him and belief in the meaning of Him. The devils believe in Him but not in the gospel, not in the meaning of the Word. Apparently...so do people. :unsure:

 

[Stumpmaster]

Again...thank you StumpMaster,

In searching I found an answer, at least one that answers for me. First, we have.....

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

And then we have what must be believed....

2 Thessalonians 2:11-13 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

So, the belief must be in truth. As the gospel is truth......

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth​

.

Then the believing that must be done to not be damned is...in the gospel, in the truth. Although He is the Word, He is the gospel, there is belief in Him and belief in the meaning of Him. The devils believe in Him but not in the gospel, not in the meaning of the Word. Apparently...so do people. :unsure:

I like this type of sharing in the word which brings clarity. Very interesting that you raised the whole subject Whirlwind, because almost simultaneously I had been explaining to a cynical unbeliever denouncing what he called "religion", that a person "can do all things religiously but not know Christ as their personal Saviour. They can know about Christ, believe He exists (present tense) but not have a personal intimate relationship with Him."

Thanks for this thread. It is edifying when Scriptures illuminate our understanding of the spiritual realm. I also have these verses to contribute :

1Corinthians 10:19-22
(19) What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
(20) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that you should have fellowship with devils.
(21) You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
(22) Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than He?

 

[whirlwind]

I like this type of sharing in the word which brings clarity. Very interesting that you raised the whole subject Whirlwind, because almost simultaneously I had been explaining to a cynical unbeliever denouncing what he called "religion", that a person "can do all things religiously but not know Christ as their personal Saviour. They can know about Christ, believe He exists (present tense) but not have a personal intimate relationship with Him."

Thanks for this thread. It is edifying when Scriptures illuminate our understanding of the spiritual realm. I also have these verses to contribute :

1Corinthians 10:19-22
(19) What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
(20) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that you should have fellowship with devils.
(21) You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
(22) Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than He?

Thank you for your verses.

It is funny how He synchronizes events. This topic popping up as you dealt with another on a similar subject isn't by chance. It happens all the time. Just this morning I was studying one topic and in it I found an answer to one I worked on yesterday! It causes Big Smiles from me

Have a wonderful Christmas my friend from the other side of the world.

 

[kestrel]

Thank you for your verses.

It is funny how He synchronizes events. This topic popping up as you dealt with another on a similar subject isn't by chance.

Be careful to attribute to God what you cannot be sure of. If the going turns out for the worse, the devil will use your previous certitude to attack you.

 

[whirlwind]

Be careful to attribute to God what you cannot be sure of. If the going turns out for the worse, the devil will use your previous certitude to attack you.

I am sure. I know His voice.

John 10:4-5 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know His voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

 

[kestrel]

I am sure. I know His voice.

John 10:4-5 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know His voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

It's not the first time that I hear or read that

 

[jerryjohnson]

It's not the first time that I hear or read that

So, kestrel, what puts you in the position of saying if a voice someone else heard is God or not?

 

[freeman4]

THOU(Satan) HAST DEFILED THY SANCTUARIES BY THE MULTITUDE OF THINE INIQUITIES, BY THE INIQUITY OF THY TRAFFIC; THEREFORE WILL I(God)BRING FORTH A FIRE FROM THE MIDST OF THEE(Satan), IT SHALL DEVOUR THEE(Satan), AND I WILL BRING THEE (Satan)TO ASHES UPON THE EARTH IN THE SIGHT OF ALL THEM THAT BEHOLD THEE. ALL THEY THAT KNOW THEE AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL BE ASTONISHED AT THEE: THOU SHALT BE A TERROR, AND NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANY MORE-Ezek 28:18,19.

The above verse describes the fate of Satan. He will be burned up and will be brought to ASHES and will be trodden under foot of the Saints. Rember that The ones who became the Demons and Satan already were Spirit beings, they were Angles, already having a taste of what it is like being with God, but they rejected that. They have been condemned and they are doomed.

freeman4

 

[Guestman]

Jesus, in the illustration of the "sheep and goats" at Matthew 25, says to those on the "left": "Be on your way from me, you have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels."(Matt 25:41) Jesus explains the meaning of "fire", saying that "these will depart into everlasting cutting-off."("cutting-off", literally, “lopping off; pruning.” Greek, ko′la·sin, Matt 25:46) Since fire means destruction, then Satan and his demons have been judged as worthy of eternal destruction.(Jude 7, Gen 19:24)

This is confirmed at Revelation 20:10, which says: "And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." At Revelation 20:14, the "lake of fire" is the "second death", from which no one ever receives a resurrection, but are dead forever. Adamic death is the first death, death as a result of inheriting sin from Adam. However, the "second death" is a direct judgment from God, for Satan and his demon angels, along with all those who failed to assist Jesus "brothers" in doing God's will (Matt 25:45) in these "last days", during Jesus invisible "presence".(Matt 24:3)

 

[Benoni]

Why would God burn up a baby goat?



Here is a new thought for you using God’s Word not my opinion. Notice I also use God’s Word to interpret the verse instead of some long dead (Latin) church school. So who do you believe; God’s Word or man religious tradition?

Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats:

A sheep is a mature believe, a sheep is a very loyal to His master and eats only the best of the spiritual grasses. As a boy I notice the farmer would give the sheep the second and third cuttings of grass; full of leaves and substance. Now a cow would eat the first cutting the lesser of the hay crop, made up of stems and little leaf compared to the earlier cuttings.

Of course a goat will eat any carnal garbage as long as it is in front of his nose.

Now I want to go to Matt 25:32 and I note; many are assuming a goat is a non believer, all it is your assumption, look at the Greek; I see a goat as an immature believer (baby goat); who are separated because of their spiritual immaturity.

Many are mature in their little religious box; but are immature spiritually; they have that immature goat nature. What garbage have you been eating to believe that Jesus is a terriorist.

Sheep Separated from Goats

Where on the other hand a goat or the Greek word (eriphos or kid; baby goat) So I see it as God separating his Sheep mature from His immature kids; spiritually speaking)
NT:2056


1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

If you were a Jew in Jesus day there would be no problem with this parable, you see a Jew knows a goat and a sheep are clean animals.

PIG

Now if you the verses were referred to a pig or unclean animal I would agree with the traditional teaching. A pig would be a great example of the unjust/heathen; but a goat was used all though out the OT as a sacrificial animal’ so how can it be the unjust? (scrape goat); and why would God burn up a baby goat in everlasting fire; what did the baby goat do?

Actually nothing; the unqualified and unjust and bias translators obvious made a grave error in the word everlasting and should of translated it ages (NT:166 Aionios). The word means ages; limit duration. The has happen a number of times in scripture and can be easily proven by the context of the verse.

Unless of cource you really want the baby goats want to burn forever and ever., but that would make God unjust and He is a just God.


But according to these bias translators God is going to send a baby goat to everlasting fire.

Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angel (messengers)

So many of God’s people are baby goats and all they eat is garbage; in other words damnable heresies or heresies of damnation/condemnations/ all those heresies that condemn people to torture

The Lake of Fire is Spiritual.

 

[Butch5]

• Mark 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;  but he that believeth not shall be damned.
• 
  James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils know there is One True God...they believe but they aren't baptized in His Spirit.  So, they aren't saved but...if I understand the above correctly, nor are they damned.

What if the devils mentioned by James are those that believe, believe they are of God and are not...are not truly baptized in the Spirit.  They aren't saved, even though they believe they are...nor are they damned.  As James was teaching about faith and works...are the devils those that believe and offer no works, here synonymous with faith? 

• James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. 

That doesn't seem to be what James is implying by his use of "devils" but...how else can one understand both verses? 

The devils mentioned in James believe there is one God, they tremble because they know they are condemned.

Matthew 8:28-29 ( KJV )
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

 

[SoldierforChrist]

• Mark 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;  but he that believeth not shall be damned.
• 
  James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils know there is One True God...they believe but they aren't baptized in His Spirit.  So, they aren't saved but...if I understand the above correctly, nor are they damned.

What if the devils mentioned by James are those that believe, believe they are of God and are not...are not truly baptized in the Spirit.  They aren't saved, even though they believe they are...nor are they damned.  As James was teaching about faith and works...are the devils those that believe and offer no works, here synonymous with faith? 

• James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. 

That doesn't seem to be what James is implying by his use of "devils" but...how else can one understand both verses? 

Salvation has more to it then simply "believing there is a God". Every devil knows there is a God, because God created them and they rebelled against him and are constantly striving to undermine his plan. However, even though the devils believe, they have no repentance in their heart towards God, thus they are not receiving salvation. Salvation comes from belief in God, as well as repentance(turning to God and away from sin). There are hundreds of verses in the Bible that confirm this. The devils will all be damned for eternity because they did not believe, repent, and turn to God. They believe and know that there is a God, however they choose to rebel against him and that will cause them to be damned.

 

[jiggyfly]

A quick word study shows that in this scripture the Greek word katakrino translated as "damed" gives absolutely no indication of specific punishment, it simply means "to be judged against" or "sentenced" with no clarification as to what the sentence will be.

 

[SoldierforChrist]

A quick word study shows that in this scripture the Greek word katakrino translated as "damed" gives absolutely no indication of specific punishment, it simply means "to be judged against" or "sentenced" with no clarification as to what the sentence will be.

Well the Bible clearly states what their punishment will be:

Matthew 25:41a "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

2 Thes. 1:7-9 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

There are more verses to back thi up but I think this proves my point. The devils and Satan will be cast into hell and the lake of fire for everlasting judgement when Jesus returns.