Why We Dont See Casting Out of Devils

[Wick Stick]

This is just another of the many reasons why the OP cries out for a solution to what should not even be an issue within the body of believers. And the geek Greek sideshow is a major contributor to the rampant lack of the believer's spiritual authority today.

God does not inflate egos. God hates a proud look and a haughty attitude.

Biblical Greek is a language by itself, whose word meanings should be framed to fit the Christian, not the pagan world view. Wisely, western Christians had been afraid of the corruption of paganism if they knew Greek.

Contrariwise, the liberal scholar condemns what he calls the 'too frequent isolation' of New Testament Greek from the 'profane Greeks.' These 'scholars' launched a full revolt, a thorough reconstruction, in their Greek grammar textbooks. They began reframing the words of the New Testament, twisting tenses, manipulating modes, corrupting the cases, and perverting participles and prepositions until the N.T. was patterned to match their anti-Christian sand castle (ala the leading ASV translator, Unitarian and unsaved liberal J. Henry Thayer and Revised Version Committee member, W.F. Moulton, where the text of spiritualists, necromancers and admitted heretics Westcott and Hort is followed). The danger in this was documented by preeminent Oxford scholars and its fruits permeate forums such as this.

The idea of giving pagan 'meanings' to Bible words brings sneers from true Christians. Corrupt Greek textbooks sourced from faulty Greek texts now rule in most "Christian" forums (compliments of Blass, Cox, DeBrunner, Dana, Easley, Funk, Goodrick, Hadjiatoniou, Mounce, Summers, Sawyer, Wallace, Winberg, Young, and Zodhiates et al). Even the preface of the Greek New Testament UBS 3rd edition admits, "the meanings are given in present-day English, rather than in accord with traditional ecclesiastical terminology."

Any needed theological distinctions are preserved in the majority text. Greek is an inflected language, that is, affixes (extra or altered letters) are added to express grammatical relationships. In current English, word order fills this function.

The authors of Greek study tools (e.g. lex-icons and editions) are the sordid sources from which new versions, such as the NIV, TNIV, NKJV,
ESV, NASB, and HCSB, take their corrupt words. These are the very same study 'aids' which kill a sermon or Bible study when used to 'define' a word in the Holy Bible. Lexicon and Bible dictionary authors dug down into the depths of pagan lore, then ransacked the English dictionary to find a match which could burn the Bible word-by-word. The smoke darkens the directing light of the holy scriptures and renders self-styled Greek-o-philes spiritually powerless. Hence many suffer the frustration evinced by the OP.

This world is bigger than your (or my) posts; liberalism adds insult to injury. We have others reading these posts and owe them a responsibility to deal forthrightly with the subject (OP) matter.

You railing against using Greek is strange to me, as you were the one who brought Greek into this. This can be easily verified by reading your post #67, above.

Can demons and the Holy Spirit occupy you? Well, are there demons on planet earth? Yes. Is the Holy Spirit on planet earth? Yes. Obviously, the two occupy the same space.

This is a spiritual reality. It's not like geography where I can only add a fixed amount of water into a finite 20-ounce bottle. It's not like once I have 20 ounces of Holy Spirit in my bottle, I can't fit anything else in there. Spiritually, you are not limited by such geography.

Frankly, I think it's just like that. The Biblical analogy is wineskins. There aren't rooms in a wineskin, and it isn't filled with multiple liquids. You can fill it with wine, or new wine, but it can't be both.

 

[doctrox]

You railing against using Greek is strange to me, as you were the one who brought Greek into this. This can be easily verified by reading your post #67, above.

The critical difference is, I don't use Greek to "correct" the Holy Bible or it proponents.

Any nine-year-old girl in Greece knows Greek better than the NIV translators or wannabee 'scholars' in these forums; the Greek Orthodox Church has had the 'so-called' advantage of an intimate knowledge of, not only the Greek language, but also the traditional Greek text of the Bible. Yet they show no spiritual fruit. The secret is not 'Greek,' but 'meek' (Psa. 25:9).

For those interested in word roots, the majority text itself (for English speakers, that's colloquially known as KJV or KJB) contains a Greek lexicon and grammar, and gives the historic definition and etymology of English words. The KJV is a one-volume library. There is little point flogging the mind, memorizing the Greek affixes, to embalm the Koine Greek, as if 'the Word' was not risen from the dead and breathing 'the scriptures to all nations' (Rom. 16:26). Any needed distinctions and elaborations are given in the English text and morphology, which are not found in corrupt Greek lex-icons compiled by usaved 'scholars.'

This does not make sense to the human intellect and ego with its desperate and infantile desire to justify itself by picking things apart, analyzing, ridiculing, and doubting them in order to create separateness from God and his authority. This fear of man brings a snare - witness the OP.

Obviously, these men do not know the truth about inspiration. They have not discerned and cannot discern, from their so-called bibles, the meaning and significance of the inspiration of God’s word. The reality of inspiration seriously bothers these guys, and they don’t understand why. Mention preservation, and their blood pressure kicks up even higher. If you tell them the word of God is inspired, they’re forced to redefine the definition of the word of God to match their un-belief in inspiration. The un-inspired inventions of un-saved men is their playground. Such men and their scholarly icons can be found hiding behind a relatively new arrival on the apostacy platter -- the ”originals only” heresy.

But, I digress.

It's arrogant powerless people who flaunt Greek as their cause célèbre, which only furthers the predicament described by the OP. Their goal is to slam the common man with their misdirection so they can proceed with their dissimulations, where Greek-o-philes swirl around strategically placed dogpiles dogma "spending their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing." (Acts 17:21) They 'have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof' (2 Tim. 3:5). They ask leading questions, such as "who are you affiliated with?" - a presumption that places a burden on their intended target. You won't find in scripture where God asks a leading question. Presumptions are sin; the word of God is clear that it is a sin to deal presumptuously with others:

Numbers 15:30, "But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

Deuteronomy 17:13, "And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously."

Psalms 19:13, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression."

Presumptions are something that the natural man has created. The natural man comes up with a presumption and they cast a burden on you to prove otherwise.

Another, more typical example, of a presumptuous question would be something like, "Have you beaten your wife lately?" Either a "yes" or "no" answer is bad. This question "presumes" you have beaten your wife already. If you answer "yes," you admit guilt. If you answer "No," you still admit to having beat your wife, just not lately. Their presumptuous questions steer your mind to the answers they want. In scripture, you don't find where God asks a leading question.

Rather, this is about possessing God's inspired word and thus the tool for appropriating the requisite authority of the King of kings, to the gist of the OP.

Do you possess the inspired word of God? I do!

It's time to move from the milk to the meat, in boldness and authority, and not as politically correct wimps.

My posting style is often intense and, at times, even combative. I won't sugar-coat my words or my delivery. Some ppl may very likely become upset or angered by what I post. So be it. That will never make my posts untrue. Truth, by its very nature, is belligerent, because it wages a war against all forms of deception and Mind Control.

I don't post this to be liked, to be popular, to make money, or to make friends. I recognize that, in the crisis of overwhelming ignorance and deception in which we live, I have a moral obligation to communicate what I know to be taking place in our world, in order to help others to understand it, so they can then TAKE ACTION and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. And casting out devils from believers is integral to taking action.

 

[Triumph1300]

My posting style is often intense and, at times, even combative. I won't sugar-coat my words or my delivery. Some ppl may very likely become upset or angered by what I post. So be it. That will never make my posts untrue. Truth, by its very nature, is belligerent, because it wages a war against all forms of deception and Mind Control.

Thumbs up!

 

[Wick Stick]

The critical difference is, I don't use Greek to "correct" the Holy Bible or it proponents.

When I explained why the Greek interpretation you introduced in this thread didn't work grammatically, I said "the verse as translated is correct." It's not me correcting the text - I argued FOR the standard translation. You were the one arguing for something else.

Why do you accuse others of the things that you did wrong?

Any nine-year-old girl in Greece knows Greek better than the NIV translators or wannabee 'scholars' in these forums; the Greek Orthodox Church has had the 'so-called' advantage of an intimate knowledge of, not only the Greek language, but also the traditional Greek text of the Bible. Yet they show no spiritual fruit. The secret is not 'Greek,' but 'meek' (Psa. 25:9).

Do you not know that modern Greek is not the same language as Biblical Greek? The one descends from the other, but they're further apart than Modern English and Old German. Tell me, how much does your mastery of English help you in deciphering this poem?

Huon, huon, man. Das ist der tag der du musst gagen, und ich bin hier. Man spiele so das ist dein spiel: ich muss nicht gagen, oder ich bin hier. Und ich spiele so. Oder ich bin hier.

That's the sort of "benefit" of knowing modern Greek you're talking about. It's non-existent.

They ask leading questions, such as "who are you affiliated with?" - a presumption that places a burden on their intended target. You won't find in scripture where God asks a leading question.

A leading question is one that suggests the answer to itself. That didn't happen here.

This seems like a legitimate and important question to me. I was always taught that "you are the company you keep."

The fact that you have repeatedly refused to identify the company you keep makes me think that you're ashamed of the answer; that it would discredit you.

My posting style is often intense and, at times, even combative. I won't sugar-coat my words or my delivery. Some ppl may very likely become upset or angered by what I post. So be it. That will never make my posts untrue. Truth, by its very nature, is belligerent, because it wages a war against all forms of deception and Mind Control.

I don't post this to be liked, to be popular, to make money, or to make friends. I recognize that, in the crisis of overwhelming ignorance and deception in which we live, I have a moral obligation to communicate what I know to be taking place in our world, in order to help others to understand it, so they can then TAKE ACTION and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. And casting out devils from believers is integral to taking action.

Allow me to reciprocate.

It seems to me that you've been speaking out of the wrong orifice. You are making things up as you go. At the least, you're co-opting things you've heard from others without having any mastery of the topic. You lie.

When confronted by someone who actually knows about those things, your response is to try to discredit the other person. You accuse.

I no longer need you to answer the question about your affiliation. I can see your actions now. You lie... you accuse...

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father.

 

[doctrox]

I argued FOR the standard translation.

and what is "the standard translation"? If English is your language, then simply read the English bible and believe what it says.

The fact that you have repeatedly refused to identify the company you keep makes me think that you're ashamed of the answer; that it would discredit you.

Rather, "the fact that you have repeatedly" foisted that statement, without performing due diligence re: my clear posts declaring my Master, suggests that you have an agenda antagonistic to the OP.

It seems to me that you've been speaking out of the wrong orifice. You are making things up as you go. At the least, you're co-opting things you've heard from others without having any mastery of the topic. You lie.... I can see your actions now. You lie... you accuse... your response is to try to discredit the other person. You accuse.

Rather, you obfuscate, prevaricate, and employ sophistry to disguise your ineptness (your lack of "mastery") re: the OP. Conversely, I have no need to disguise one of my areas of "mastery" (although I continue to learn and grow more every day in the area of deliverance).

I no longer need you to answer the question about your affiliation.

I am delighted that your need has been satisfied. Now let's get on with helping others here who are in a hurt locker and are seeking the necessary tools to set themselves and others free from devils.

God help me to follow Eph. 4:29.

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This is a later addition to the above post. I went back and had a re-read of our exchange, as I am a bit offside as to why you are offside. So some of my comments follow:

I don't think that's right. Do you have a Biblical basis for that statement? I'm thinking of...

Matt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

This is why demonized people are conflicted - hating the one and loving the other, while those two are STILL THERE, WITHIN the man (the context here is the eye and the body).

Devils are accusers - they are external, especially in the special case where it speaks of THE devil.

A well-known bible translator, J. B. Phillips, translated the New Testament into colloquial English. He was under severe demonic attack, as per his autobiography, "The Price of Success".

Phillips lists his condition as follows:

“1. There is a slow but inevitable diminution of the self and it is apparently leading to self-extinction.
2. Familiar things become somehow touched with horror...[T]he sense of alienation means that one is not in one’s own country or has strayed into a strange country by mistake.
3. [A] roaring galloping torrent of condemnation [is] directed against the self’s achievements. With remorseless energy this particular ‘demon’ rushes to and fro up and down in one’s mind and with savage cruelty exposes everything that the self has done as being useless and worthless.”

Shall we argue corrupted Greek as to whether that 'demon' was inside the man or outside the man? or separate the torturer from the torture?

The Demonized possess spirits. This is internal. Yes, you read that right - the people possess the demons; not the other way round.

Of course. I am in possession of my rental unit; I do not own it. And possession requires an act of free will to accomplish it.

Ok, the following seems to be the main source of your angst with me:

Acts 5 says, "why has the Satan (nominative) filled (active) your heart to lie." Given the casing of the words, it does NOT say that Satan inhabits the heart here, but rather that he is the one adding something to their hearts - a lie.

A lie is an abomination. Are you familiar with curses? Do you know that a curse is basically a "Permission to Enter" sign for a devil? Why do you think the penalty was so severe for A & S? Merely because they "lied to the holy Ghost"? They "tempted the Spirit of the Lord." And where was that Spirit located?

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. (Acts 5:1-11).

 

[Wick Stick]

and what is "the standard translation"? If English is your language, then simply read the English bible and believe what it says.

Specifically, it's "Do not give place to the devil." You argued that the word translated "place" means "beachhead." It does not.

More generically, my Bible of choice is the KJV.

Rather, "the fact that you have repeatedly" foisted that statement, without performing due diligence re: my clear posts declaring my Master, suggests that you have an agenda antagonistic to the OP.

Who, Hobie? I've been interacting with him for over 15 years. I know his theology reasonably well. Do you?

Rather, you obfuscate, prevaricate, and employ sophistry to disguise your ineptness (your lack of "mastery") re: the OP. Conversely, I have no need to disguise one of my areas of "mastery" (although I continue to learn and grow more every day in the area of deliverance).

I haven't told a single lie here. I haven't employed any rhetorical method or sophistry. Again you accuse me of what YOU have done. You should run for office.

A well-known bible translator, J. B. Phillips, translated the New Testament into colloquial English. He was under severe demonic attack, as per his autobiography, "The Price of Success".

Phillips lists his condition as follows:

“1. There is a slow but inevitable diminution of the self and it is apparently leading to self-extinction.
2. Familiar things become somehow touched with horror...[T]he sense of alienation means that one is not in one’s own country or has strayed into a strange country by mistake.
3. [A] roaring galloping torrent of condemnation [is] directed against the self’s achievements. With remorseless energy this particular ‘demon’ rushes to and fro up and down in one’s mind and with savage cruelty exposes everything that the self has done as being useless and worthless.”

Shall we argue corrupted Greek as to whether that 'demon' was inside the man or outside the man? or separate the torturer from the torture?

I don't know Phillips or his work well enough to comment on it.

Ok, the following seems to be the main source of your angst with me:

A lie is an abomination. Are you familiar with curses? Do you know that a curse is basically a "Permission to Enter" sign for a devil? Why do you think the penalty was so severe for A & S? Merely because they "lied to the holy Ghost"? They "tempted the Spirit of the Lord." And where was that Spirit located?

What I do know is that the modern church has largely misunderstood demons as "malevolent creatures from another dimension" when that simply isn't how the spiritual works. Demons are spirits. They don't operate out of some separate dimension, but rather they exert influence in this one. They are the result of people rejecting their God-given purpose in life and attempting to create their own.

Devils are not quite the same thing. They have corporeal presence. They may be people who are demonized/demonizing, but they are not themselves demons.

To the question of whether someone can have both the Holy Spirit AND an unclean spirit within them, the answer is clearly no. The Holy will drive out the unholy when it enters, and it will not let it re-enter.

Now I'm sure you may have seen "Christians" who are demonized. That's because they're not really Christians. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" are legitimate.

 

[doctrox]

[re: Eph. 4:27] You argued that the word translated "place" means "beachhead." It does not.

Of course it does. What do you think a "place" is? place = topos = as in "topographical." i.e. inhabited ground or territory. Comparing scripture with scripture, the word "place" is found as follows:

place (80x)
room (5x)
quarter (2x)
licence (1x)
coast (1x)
where (1x),
plain (with G3977) (1x)
rock (with G5138) (1x).

If that doesn't describe a beachhead, what does?

"A beachhead is a strategically important area, typically a beach, that an invading force establishes and controls to facilitate the landing and subsequent advancement of troops and supplies. It serves as a secure starting point for further operations, similar to a foothold or a bridgehead."
and
"The term can also be used metaphorically to describe a position or strategy that provides a base for future action or progress, not just in military contexts. For example, a company might establish a "beachhead" in a new market by acquiring a minority interest in a local business, according to the Corporate Finance Institute."
and
I might invite a friend over to my place (inhabited ground; territory) for a brew (root beer).

More generically, my Bible of choice is the KJV.

So you also use other, copyrighted, inventions of men. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. (Job 14:4)

Who, Hobie? I've been interacting with him for over 15 years. I know his theology reasonably well. Do you?

Who, Hobie? "Theology"? Why should I care? Stop evincing fear of man and address the OP.

What I do know is that the modern church has largely misunderstood demons as "malevolent creatures from another dimension" when that simply isn't how the spiritual works. Demons are spirits. They don't operate out of some separate dimension, but rather they exert influence in this one. They are the result of people rejecting their God-given purpose in life and attempting to create their own.

This is void of scriptural and linguistic support. Nonetheless, you're entitled to your opinions.

Devils are not quite the same thing [as demons]. They have corporeal presence.

Now your "theology" would split demons and devils. Substituting demons for devils is part of the New Age Name Game/Jargon. Truly, there is no new thing under the sun.

The book of Revelation talks about a time when people will worship devils (Rev. 9:20). Why would anyone ever worship a devil? In the new versions the word “devils” has been removed and changed to “demons.” Webster’s Dictionary says “demons” are tutelary divinities. Webster’s Dictionary agrees with the occult Theosophical Dictionary which says a demon “has a meaning identical with that of a god.” So no wonder they will be worshipping them. On the other hand, the Holy Bible's word, “devil” is defined in Webster’s Dictionary as a spirit of evil.

Both Strong and Thayer changed "devils" to "demons".

They may be people who are demonized/demonizing, but they are not themselves demons.

No one said they were. Another non sequitur. Demonized people, by scriptural definition, are under the control of a devil. It's only a matter of the degree of control.

To the question of whether someone can have both the Holy Spirit AND an unclean spirit within them, the answer is clearly no. The Holy will drive out the unholy when it enters, and it will not let it re-enter.

That's totally incorrect. The Holy Spirit will not violate the exercise of your free will choice in any case. This is why sanctification is essential; without that, you're stuck spinning the satanic wheels of Greek fables. Rather, we must be overcomers - which rightly addresses the problem as per the OP.

And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also; go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. (1 Kings 22:20-23)

That lying spirit got to Ahab through others, through his prophets - through the power of persuasion AND Ahab's willingness to exert his free will choice to come into agreement with that persuasive spirit. To avoid a similar fate here, EVERYTHING must be taken captive to Christ, regardless of source, understanding that NO MAN is the sole arbiter of the word of God.

Persuasion itself is neutral; the result can be good, or it can be bad. I, too, am "persuaded" thusly:

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (end of Romans 8).

Now I'm sure you may have seen "Christians" who are demonized. That's because they're not really Christians. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" are legitimate.

How "sure" are you? Yet another non sequitur.

...continued...

 

[doctrox]

Unbelieving impotent Greek geeks are not someone to be consulted, especially in the area of spiritual warfare. These guys couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. In addition to the previous example of J. B. Phillips, we note J. Henry Thayer's Greek Lexicon, which begins with a warning by the publisher:

A word of caution is necessary. Thayer was a Unitarian, and the errors of this sect occasionally come through...the reader should be alert for both subtle and blatant denials of such doctrines as the Trinity (Thayer regarded Christ as a mere man and the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force and {denied} Biblical inerrancy).

What kind of success do you think Thayer would have had against devils - without or within?...no doubt about the same as the admitedly demonized NT translator J. B. Phillips. It's simply more vanity and vexation of spirit wrought by the 'scholarship' of unsaved men.

I'm continuing to point out the primary error of your powerless approach because there are over 2000 hits on this thread by folks who want to know the truth about how to get set free from demonic control. They don't want to be sent to a dead language, resurrected and corrupted by the likes of Thayer and Phillips. Even Strong was an unbeliever who denied inspiration.

And here's the worst of it. Before you entered this thread, you held that a believer cannot have a devil resident within his flesh. And so your first move here was to set about trying to proof that position by putting your 'opponent' on his back foot with presumptions/accusations/LIES intended, at the least, to discredit and misdirect, such as this sampling:

Your grammar is poor here.

You're arguing for a minority translation

You really need to work on your Greek.

The New Testament assumes you can read Greek. It's written in Greek! C'mon, man.

Thereby, it is you who has accused me, from the beginning. You lost any "debate" right then and there - and you don't even realize it. This is the arrogance borne of ignorance I posted of.

A lie is an abomination, an untruth, a falsehood, an open door to demonic control that follows like tails on a kite. "Satan has filled your heart", resulting in the control of A&S from within as per their dishonesty. (Again, this is NOT about the "possession/oppression" red herring.) And who is the father of lies? (John 8:44)

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Lies give place to the devil.

I deal with this wannabee Greek-geek stuff all the time. It always happens when anyone in the authority of Christ attempts to declare the truth. The pride of man raises its ugly head. And who is empowering that man? Well, is the foul spirit (read devil) that is controlling that man, resident inside the man or outside the man? DOES IT MATTER?

You fool yourself into thinking you know some thing that you don't. Isolating scripture using word games of corrupted Greek only strokes yourself while keeping everyone else in the dark about how to effectively wage warfare against Satan. IOW, playing diversionary Greek games is a part of the problem and not a part of the solution. And you can throw 'apologetics' into the spiritual warfare arena all day long to no effect, as well. It's simply more vanity and vexation of spirit wrought by the 'scholarship' of unsaved men.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mark 7).

The traditions of men bring death.

The exorcist Sceva's sons (like the Nicolaitans) thought they could appropriate the true authority by merely playing word games, too, but that devil called them out as they they got their backsides handed to them.

Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. (Mat. 12)

The fact is that believers can have devils resident within their flesh (in which dwells no good thing - Rom. 7:18), controlling from within.

So let's get back to SOLUTIONS.

We get there simply by comparing spiritual with spiritual. We compare the scripture with the scripture. We do NOT isolate; context is key. Referring back to the A&S passage (Acts 5), throughout the NT, we have over 150 appearances of the same word "heart/hearts":

Reading the above passages will tell you all you need to know about the heart.

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim. 3:15-17 AV

Notice that even a child understands the holy scriptures -- no middlemen wanna-be ‘scholars’ required!

Notice that it is God who gives scripture -- not man. Man does not even feature in this verse.

Notice that the purpose of God, giving to man, God’s inspired scripture is so “that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

Notice how God gives scripture -- by inspiration. Nowhere does it say that God inspired men! “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” God’s Spirit (i.e. inspiration) is the vehicle with which God ‘gives all scripture’ -- God does not give scripture via any man, or by inspiring any man, or by any other means. Thus, God’s scripture has life -- it is alive, it is the living Spirit-filled words of God. Conversely, man does not have life; outside of God, man is dead. Yes, man has breath, but mere breath is not life; God’s Spirit is life. The words of men are mere breaths; whereas God’s word is Life itself. The reality of the inspiration of scripture has no connection with any efforts of man (or of Greek-o-philes).

This living quality of scripture puzzles those who are not born again. It even puzzles those who are born again but who have had their thought processes impaired by spiritual deception.

Don’t let the wanna-be scholars deceive you by their attempts to shift the inspiration of God’s living Spirit-filled words to man’s mere breath. So the next time you hear, “only the ‘Hebrew and Greek’ is the inspired text,” you’ll know the truth of the matter.

Now that the cat has been let out of the bag, a key question for Wick Stick, indeed, for all of us: Do you possess the inspired word of God? If so, describe it. If not, explain why not.

It’s not a sin to be wrong; it’s not even a sin to be grossly wrong. It is a sin, however, to refuse the reproof, the correction, when the truth of the matter has been made available.

Do you think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves, therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:5-8)

This is strong meat; I do not apologize. May God bless you in your search for the Truth.

 

[Wick Stick]

Of course it does. What do you think a "place" is? place = topos = as in "topographical." i.e. inhabited ground or territory. Comparing scripture with scripture, the word "place" is found as follows:

place (80x)
room (5x)
quarter (2x)
licence (1x)
coast (1x)
where (1x),
plain (with G3977) (1x)
rock (with G5138) (1x).

If that doesn't describe a beachhead, what does?

"A beachhead is a strategically important area, typically a beach, that an invading force establishes and controls to facilitate the landing and subsequent advancement of troops and supplies. It serves as a secure starting point for further operations, similar to a foothold or a bridgehead."
and
"The term can also be used metaphorically to describe a position or strategy that provides a base for future action or progress, not just in military contexts. For example, a company might establish a "beachhead" in a new market by acquiring a minority interest in a local business, according to the Corporate Finance Institute."
and
I might invite a friend over to my place (inhabited ground; territory) for a brew (root beer).

You're a study in contradictions. After all your posts decrying the use of Greek, and reference works, here you are making an argument using Greek and a lexicon. Maybe practice what you preach... you aren't any good at this type of argument.

So you also use other, copyrighted, inventions of men. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. (Job 14:4)

You object to the use of the King James Bible? But I'm sure it's fine for you to use it.

Who, Hobie? "Theology"? Why should I care? Stop evincing fear of man and address the OP.

Hobie is the original poster. What ARE you talking about?

Now your "theology" would split demons and devils.

The Bible differentiates, so I do too.

No one said they were. Another non sequitur. Demonized people, by scriptural definition, are under the control of a devil. It's only a matter of the degree of control.

That's totally incorrect. The Holy Spirit will not violate the exercise of your free will choice in any case. This is why sanctification is essential; without that, you're stuck spinning the satanic wheels of Greek fables. Rather, we must be overcomers - which rightly addresses the problem as per the OP.

And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also; go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. (1 Kings 22:20-23)

That lying spirit got to Ahab through others, through his prophets - through the power of persuasion AND Ahab's willingness to exert his free will choice to come into agreement with that persuasive spirit. To avoid a similar fate here, EVERYTHING must be taken captive to Christ, regardless of source, understanding that NO MAN is the sole arbiter of the word of God.

Persuasion itself is neutral; the result can be good, or it can be bad. I, too, am "persuaded" thusly:

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (end of Romans 8).

How "sure" are you? Yet another non sequitur.

...continued...

I think that you are persuaded that if you use enough words, you will "win" through a preponderance of litigation. You might be right. It is quite burdensome to filter through so much crap to refute individual points, some of which are self-contradictory.

 

[doctrox]

.

You're a study in contradictions. After all your posts decrying the use of Greek, and reference works, here you are making an argument using Greek and a lexicon. Maybe practice what you preach...

It's not a lex-icon. Using any concordance, read the front where you find the objective listing of every word and ignore the subjective definitions in the rear. While Strong's will suffice for this, there are other ways to conveniently pull up the sum appearances of any particular word in the Holy Bible. The salient point is, read the Holy Bible and NOT what someone else publishes about the Holy Bible.

you aren't any good at this type of argument.

Who's arguing? I don't preach to the crowd; I preach to the cloud (of witnesses).

You will recover.

You object to the use of the King James Bible? But I'm sure it's fine for you to use it.

My Holy Bible is not copyrighted.

Hobie is the original poster. What ARE you talking about?

We're supposed to be exploring the OP.

The Bible differentiates [between demon and devil], so I do too.

My Holy Bible does not contain the word "demon." No doubt, your copyrighted version of the Holy Bible does.

I think that you are persuaded that if you use enough words, you will "win" through a preponderance of litigation. You might be right. It is quite burdensome to filter through so much crap to refute individual points, some of which are self-contradictory.

lol @ litigation (i.e. the process of taking legal action). Can you say 'Sceva'?

Meanwhile, diversionary talk remains cheap, as you evince, while we believers have already been bought with a price.

Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (2 Peter 1:10).

 

[Wick Stick]

Unbelieving impotent Greek geeks are not someone to be consulted, especially in the area of spiritual warfare. These guys couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. In addition to the previous example of J. B. Phillips, we note J. Henry Thayer's Greek Lexicon, which begins with a warning by the publisher:

A word of caution is necessary. Thayer was a Unitarian, and the errors of this sect occasionally come through...the reader should be alert for both subtle and blatant denials of such doctrines as the Trinity (Thayer regarded Christ as a mere man and the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force and {denied} Biblical inerrancy).

What kind of success do you think Thayer would have had against devils - without or within?...no doubt about the same as the admitedly demonized NT translator J. B. Phillips. It's simply more vanity and vexation of spirit wrought by the 'scholarship' of unsaved men.

I'm continuing to point out the primary error of your powerless approach because there are over 2000 hits on this thread by folks who want to know the truth about how to get set free from demonic control. They don't want to be sent to a dead language, resurrected and corrupted by the likes of Thayer and Phillips. Even Strong was an unbeliever who denied inspiration.

Your argument here boils down to "don't study the Bible."

You call me powerless, but you seem to struggle with this. I don't. Unclean spirits actively avoid me. They leave places that I enter. That isn't meant to be a boast... it isn't because of anything I've done/did. I just have good people praying for me, and perhaps an unction on me that they find unpleasant.

And here's the worst of it. Before you entered this thread, you held that a believer cannot have a devil resident within his flesh. And so your first move here was to set about trying to proof that position by putting your 'opponent' on his back foot with presumptions/accusations/LIES intended, at the least, to discredit and misdirect, such as this sampling:



Thereby, it is you who has accused me, from the beginning. You lost any "debate" right then and there - and you don't even realize it. This is the arrogance borne of ignorance I posted of.

I debunked several of your arguments because they were wrong, and I called into question your ability to interpret the Bible. If you wish to take those as accusations, ok.

A lie is an abomination, an untruth, a falsehood, an open door to demonic control that follows like tails on a kite. "Satan has filled your heart", resulting in the control of A&S from within as per their dishonesty. (Again, this is NOT about the "possession/oppression" red herring.) And who is the father of lies? (John 8:44)

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Lies give place to the devil.

Well then... stop lying. Problem solved.

I deal with this wannabee Greek-geek stuff all the time. It always happens when anyone in the authority of Christ attempts to declare the truth. The pride of man raises its ugly head. And who is empowering that man? Well, is the foul spirit (read devil) that is controlling that man, resident inside the man or outside the man? DOES IT MATTER?

You fool yourself into thinking you know some thing that you don't. Isolating scripture using word games of corrupted Greek only strokes yourself while keeping everyone else in the dark about how to effectively wage warfare against Satan. IOW, playing diversionary Greek games is a part of the problem and not a part of the solution. And you can throw 'apologetics' into the spiritual warfare arena all day long to no effect, as well. It's simply more vanity and vexation of spirit wrought by the 'scholarship' of unsaved men.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mark 7).

The traditions of men bring death.

"Deliverance ministries" have a bad reputation for a reason. They are full of charlatans. They attract people whose real reason for being there is so that they can feel superior to the people that they are trying to convince of some demonic possession/oppression that exists only in their own imagination. That's why their exorcisms or treatments are always ineffective in the long-term. Most of them would have no idea what to do if they encountered the real deal.

That said, I'm not here for the purpose of opposing them. I come here to have conversations with other like-minded Christians. You don't seem to be one of those.

The fact is that believers can have devils resident within their flesh (in which dwells no good thing - Rom. 7:18), controlling from within.

That isn't what that verse says. It says that SIN can live within a believer. Not a devil. Not a demon. Sin.

So let's get back to SOLUTIONS.

We get there simply by comparing spiritual with spiritual. We compare the scripture with the scripture. We do NOT isolate; context is key. Referring back to the A&S passage (Acts 5), throughout the NT, we have over 150 appearances of the same word "heart/hearts":

Reading the above passages will tell you all you need to know about the heart.

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim. 3:15-17 AV

If you're saying that language does not affect inspiration, I agree. And saying only the autographs are inspired is just a cop-out. We don't have the autographs, so they're irrelevant.

A lot of lip service is given to the idea that 'Scripture is inspired,' but the actual Scriptures tell us to use them as inspiration. The former is a basic doctrine; the latter is the power of God unto salvation for those who believe.

Now that the cat has been let out of the bag, a key question for Wick Stick, indeed, for all of us: Do you possess the inspired word of God? If so, describe it. If not, explain why not.

Aye. David described it like this... and I can't do better than David:

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

It’s not a sin to be wrong; it’s not even a sin to be grossly wrong. It is a sin, however, to refuse the reproof, the correction, when the truth of the matter has been made available.

Mmmm hmmmm... now apply that to yourself.

Do you think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves, therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:5-8)

This is strong meat; I do not apologize. May God bless you in your search for the Truth.

James 5:7 is the only reason I keep responding to you.

 

[doctrox]

Your argument here boils down to "don't study the Bible."

Anyone else reading my post would not draw the faulty conclusion you have.

You call me powerless...Unclean spirits actively avoid me. They leave places that I enter...

Wielding Godly authority, and unclean spirits avoiding you, are not necessarily cause-and-effect. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Don't get too cocky just yet.

I debunked several of your arguments because they were wrong, and I called into question your ability to interpret the Bible. If you wish to take those as accusations, ok.

Such character assassination attempts are standard fair when you're on the hook. You've debunked no-thing and we're all still waiting with bated breath. The private interpretation you insinuate is a sin.

"Deliverance ministries" have a bad reputation for a reason. They are full of charlatans. They attract people whose real reason for being there is so that they can feel superior to the people that they are trying to convince of some demonic possession/oppression that exists only in their own imagination. That's why their exorcisms or treatments are always ineffective in the long-term. Most of them would have no idea what to do if they encountered the real deal.

"Charlatans" can be found in any employ. Your use of the worldly terms "exorcism" and "treatments" tells me exactly where you're at. But overall, I would agree and commiserate with your assessment of so-called "deliverance ministries" at large. This is also why I'm very careful about casting my pearls before swine...

It says that SIN can live within a believer. Not a devil. Not a demon. Sin.

Where does an unclean spirit get his unction, his authority, to oppress i.e. control anyone? As per the lies of A&S: Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. (Eph. 4:25) Lies give place to the devil.

If you're saying that language does not affect inspiration, I agree. And saying only the autographs are inspired is just a cop-out. We don't have the autographs, so they're irrelevant.

100% agree. The believer's authority does not rest in any language/translation/autograph.

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Luv it!

Mmmm hmmmm... now apply that to yourself.

If you've got it, then bring it to the table (avoid the pissing contest).

James 5:7 is the only reason I keep responding to you.

Good on ya.

 

[Wick Stick]

Wielding Godly authority, and unclean spirits avoiding you, are not necessarily cause-and-effect. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Don't get too cocky just yet.

Not cocky. They leave me and mine alone, and I know why.

You've debunked no-thing and we're all still waiting with baited breath.

I think I have. And if anybody is masochistic enough to read back through all this contentiousness, I'm happy enough with the case I made.

"Charlatans" can be found in any employ. Your use of the worldly terms "exorcism" and "treatments" tells me exactly where you're at.

Well... it tells you someplace I've been. I had a couple brushes with "deliverance ministries" and basically called BS on both of them and refused to "help" them anymore. It's a pageant I don't wish to lend my credibility to.

 

[doctrox]

I'm happy enough with the case I made.

No doubt, while nuthin' changes at your end. Meanwhile, at this end, believers continue to seek and receive deliverance from devils.

Well... it tells you someplace I've been. I had a couple brushes with "deliverance ministries" and basically called BS on both of them and refused to "help" them anymore. It's a pageant I don't wish to lend my credibility to.

Should any of us care where you (or I) have "been"? Rather, what saith scripture? How do we help our brethren re: the OP?

But I understand. It's a shame that the two of you weren't on the same page. "Pageants" are for pretenders. Perhaps you should change the company you keep.

Continuing with the gist of the OP:

1) In Mark 5 and Luke 8, a devil had driven a man into the wilderness. It had caught (i.e. chosen and seized) him on many occasions. Jesus allowed the devils within the man to enter a herd (about 2000) swine. When the swine subsequently ran into the lake and choked, what happened to their devils?

2) If the Holy Spirit dwells in your flesh, then what happens to the Holy Spirit after you physically die, and your body, your flesh, turns back to dust?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I've added this a day later, to sum thus far:

There are some who can't think outside the Greek-geek box. When they encounter anything relating to "the Greek," they wrongly presume it was sourced from one of their secular lex-icons compiled by unsaved 'scholars' who 'edited' corrupted manuscripts, and so the nonstop attempts to pigeonhole me become obvious.

One here would continually attempt to browbeat me into "affiliating" with his "credibility" scorecard, because it's all he knows. The meaning of inspiration eludes him. If he can't co-opt me into his Greek-geek Club, then he'll denigrate my ministry of which he knows nothing. He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him (Pro. 18:13). Finally, he comes full circle and bemoans the "pageantry" he experienced with some Sceva-types, "exorcists" i.e. clouds without rain, and attempts the 'guilty by association' "charlatans" and "cult" smear. If deliverance is his calling, he surely is not walking in Authority; the fear of man has brought him a snare (Prov. 29:25). THIS SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO THE SITUATION AS DESCRIBED BY THE OP.

As I've both intimated and indicated, a Webster's Dictionary (NOT Greek sourced from corrupted manuscripts and compiled by unsaved 'scholars') will suffice if you are not yet familiar with the Holy Bible's built-in dictionary, which only works properly with the Majority Text (e.g. for English speakers, the uncopyrighted King James version of the Holy Bible). Again, word-for-word comparisons are easier with a concordance or similar device that objectively lists the location of every word (AVOID the subjective definitions).

TOPOGRAPHY, n. [Gr. topos, place + description.] Noah Webster, American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828 (Baltimore, Maryland: United Book Press, Inc., 2009), Vol. II, p. 95.

PLACE, n. To give room; to give advantage; to yield to the influence of. Neither give place to the devil. Eph. iv. A portion of occupied space. The Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. John xi. Official station; ground; room. To take the precedence or priority. Noah Webster, American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828 (Baltimore, Maryland: United Book Press, Inc., 2009), page not numbered. [check for yourself here]

Ananias and Sapphira conceived the theft in their hearts (Acts 5:4), thereby allowing Satan to fill their hearts (v. 3). They gave place to the devil because they lied. If they had only confessed and repented (or not have lied), then they would have denied a devil a place of control from within them.

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? (v. 4). A & S gave their power over to Satan and he took full advantage.

As per the OP, the reason Why We Don't See Casting Out of Devils is that we are powerless to do so, because we are not actively involved in the sanctification process.

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. (John 17:17).