Why only 144,000?

[Davy]

So it's not literally 144,000 people living on Earth ascending to the sky to meet Jesus?

No. The Revelation 7 chapter is not about a rapture. The "great multitude" shown in heaven is a future-forward view after Christ has returned, those having come out of the great tribulation, meaning they went through it and were tested. Anyone who makes a stand for Jesus during the tribulation means they were 'sealed' with God's seal (by The Holy Spirit). Jesus does not come to gather His Church until the end of the tribulation, as He said in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

It is about those whom God 'seals' with His seal for the end. The "great multitude" represents those sealed of the Gentiles. All of them, both the 144,000 Israelites and the "great multitude" in that chapter represent Christ's Church sealed for the end. In the Old Testament prophets, this distinction also appears between Israelites and Gentiles that are saved (Isaiah 49:5-6). The way Revelation was written with all its symbology and fast moving timelines is how the Books of the Old Testament prophets were written. This is why study of the prophets is also a must in order to understand our Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation.

 

[Taken]

Just men but not women? Why?

A FE-male came forth out from a Male, and is the femine of Male, for the purpose of Male & Female to reproduce offspring.

God, Lord, Male, Fe-male is the ORDER of Authority, By Gods Design.

The 12 Tribes of Israel were Established through 12 Males (NOT females).

It is Not the Mission of The 144,000 to Reproduce offspring.

Males are the Highest ORDER, after the Lord God, to Serve the Lord God, in Preaching The Tribes of Israel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is God who has selected WHO, IS Most Equipped To Serve His purpose of Preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to His People/ ISRAEL.

Glory To God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

Very informative, thank you.

You do realize that you are substantiating the JW doctrine of the 144,000?

I'm not a JW, so no, I'm not really familiar with their teaching on the 144,000. I would first have to study their version, and then be sure of what your understanding about the Scripture is to properly respond.

However, as far as what I am substantiating, I am sticking to the Scripture, which is non-denominational. So if any Christian denomination agrees with what is written there, that doesn't mean it is a cult doctrine. So the goal should be to determine what is actually written and revealed.

When I say 'revealed', that also is important to distinguish, for some might call it speculation only. For example, the "great multitude" of Rev.7 are shown having come out of great tribulation, and are standing before the throne and before The Lamb (Jesus), and post-tribulational events are shown in association with them. The timing of those events are for after... Jesus has returned.

Rev 7:14-17
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV

Those statements in red above especially are signs of the time after Jesus has returned, especially their serving God in His temple, which is pointing to God's House starting in Ezekiel 40 forward, which is what the "many mansions" of John 12 is actually about. Those "living fountain of waters" also is about that Millennial temple of Ezekiel 47 with Jesus upon His throne on earth. All that is pointing to the "great multitude" of Gentiles being there to serve Christ for that time, which Ezekiel 44 shows ONLY His elect (called the Zadok which means 'The Just') will be able to approach Jesus in that future Millennium time. Essentially, those things represent Christ's sealed elect.

There will be many among the believing Gentiles that will make a stand for Christ Jesus during the coming great tribulation. The 144,000 only represent those sealed of the seed of Israel that will make that stand. The great multitude having come out of great tribulation and washed their robes represents having made a stand in the tribulation for Jesus. Per Mark 13, that is what His elect are to do during the tribulation, i.e., be prepared to give a Testimony for Jesus in that time, which is what the Joel 2 prophecy about the cloven tongue is ultimately for at the end of this world. While many brethren are being taught something else, those whom God has sealed, and is sealing for that final event against the beast for the end, will make that stand for Jesus, and not be deceived by the coming pseudo-Messiah.

 

[Taken]

I appreciate the enlightenment. Thank you.

So the 144,000 will be practicing Jews and not Christians? I know a bunch of Christians who believe they'll be among the 144,000.

Not "practicing Jews" per'se

The 12 Tribes..Each were under the Original Leadership of the 12 sons of Jacob.
All (but one were appointed Land)...
The Father, Jacob...had his named changed by God, to ISRAEL...
This encompassed a "fellowship" among the Tribes, while each son had governing authority over his specific land.
(son, Levi received no land. He was appointed Priest/minister...and was to carry on Down to his sons. Their job ( old time internet of sorts) traveling from land to land, overseeing THEY all were abreast of news about the other Tribes and particularly That their Religious Doctrines were all in sinc.)

Tribes grew in population, Gentile's influence for some WAS more appealing, King's with strong armies took over lands, Tribal father's died off, etc. etc....Tribes became scattered, land possession changed hands,
Tribe of Benjamin and Judah stuck together the longest, and now, the rest are scattered.
Often called the Lost Tribes of Israel. Records of Tribal descendants, lost, burned, etc.
Today, ANY one with known heritage (through parents/G, G+ grandparents,) holding to the Tribal connection and Religion, are all Identifying themselves connected to any Tribe, by being call Jewish (even though that word Jewish, was originally identified with the son Judah, the Tribe of Judah and land of Judah.)
A portion of the land of Judah, ended up in the Control of Great British.
In 1948, Great Britian, relinquished their right to a small portion of OF original Judah, seeded To the Jews, and that land today is called the Nation of Israel, and citizens of Israel can Lawfully call themselves, Israelites.

The 144,000 are not identified as "practicing Jews"...but rather are "reserved Virgin men"...
To me, indicates, holy, without taint, perfect for the Task for which God has prepared them to be instruments to lead His People to Salvation.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I know a bunch of Christians who believe they'll be among the 144,000.

They are in error... if they were, they would have been ... of a Tribe of Israel (which Christians are not ), and Bodily dead eons Ago.

Rev 14:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Here we learn;
the number, 144,000
Where, on Mt Sion/Zion.
A Lamb is with them
They are Sealed (not able to be overcome/ taken/ claimed by the Anti-Christ)


[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Here we learn from where the 144,000 come.
They are Earthly born men, redeemed (claimed). Which means, they are also soul Saved and spirit born again....
And probably (by others scripture teaching...Bodily Dead, waiting to be raised up to fulfill their Task at a specific time in the last days)

[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

More specific info About 144,000.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

It's important to understand that the 'sealing' of Revelation 7 is NOT for anyone outside Christ's Church.

All the unbelieving who reject Christ Jesus represent the non-sealed which the locusts of Revelation 9 are allowed to 'sting'.

Rev 9:3-5
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
KJV

Apostle Paul defined what the idea of being 'sealed' for the end is about...

Eph 1:12-13
12 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV

Thus the sealing of Revelation 7 is about those sealed by The Holy Spirit by Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That of course means Christians. That sealing does not, and cannot, ever apply to one outside The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Taken]

So it's not literally 144,000 people living on Earth ascending to the sky to meet Jesus?

I believe the Bible IS literal.
When it says 144,000, that is what it means.
As I believe God does not need to Guess or Estimate the Number of Servants He needs in the last days to Save His People ISRAEL.

No need for "them" to ascend up to the sky to meet Jesus, to accomplish their task...Their Tast is ON Earth. They have with them A Lamb.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Very informative, thank you.

You do realize that you are substantiating the JW doctrine of the 144,000?

No. He is relaying information that "Others" have shared with him, concerning "them".
He said nothing about being in agreement with "the others" stance.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

No. He is relaying information that "Others" have shared with him, concerning "them".

You assume too much. I didn't get my understanding of Rev.7 from "Others" that have shared with me.

The Rev.7 Scripture is simple for those who stay with it as written, and also do the same with other Scripture it is linked to, like the idea of being 'sealed' by God in Rev.9 and according to Apostle Paul in Ephesians 1.

 

[Davy]

I believe the Bible IS literal.
When it says 144,000, that is what it means.
As I believe God does not need to Guess or Estimate the Number of Servants He needs in the last days to Save His People ISRAEL.

No need for "them" to ascend up to the sky to meet Jesus, to accomplish their task...Their Tast is ON Earth. They have with them A Lamb.

Glory to God,
Taken

The task of the "great multitude" of Rev.7 also is on earth during the tribulation. Those certainly do not wash their robes making them white in the Blood of The Lamb by sitting around doing nothing but waiting to be raptured out of the tribulation. They wash their robes by making a 'stand' against the fiery darts of Satan in the "evil day", with the Gospel Armor on (Ephesians 6). That's why the Rev.7 Scripture says they came out of great tribulation, not escape out of great tribulation.

 

[Cooper]

Revelation chapter 7 vs 1-8
7:1-4 The vision of four angels standing at the four corners of the earth and holding back the four winds means that a great storm is about to burst on the world. However, the angels are told to delay this terrible destruction until the servants of God have been sealed on their foreheads. Twelve thousand persons from each of the twelve tribes of Israel are then sealed.

7:5-8 The 144,000 are clearly Jewish believers, not members of some 20th century Gentile cult. These Jewish saints are saved during the early part of the Tribulation. The seal on their foreheads brands them as belonging to God and guarantees that they will be preserved alive during the ensuing seven years.

Two tribes are absent from the list: Ephraim and Dan. Perhaps they are omitted because they were leaders in idolatry. Some think that the Antichrist will come from Dan (Gen_49:17). The tribes of Joseph and Levi are included in the list, Joseph doubtless taking the place of his son, Ephraim.
.

 

[Cooper]

Revelation 7:9-12
7:9 The people described in this section are Gentiles from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. They stand before the throne and before the Lamb with white robes (the righteous acts of the saints, Rev_19:8) and holding palm branches, which are a symbol of victory.

7:10 These are Gentiles who will be saved during the Great Tribulation by trusting the Lord Jesus. In their song they celebrate their salvation and attribute it to their God and to the Lamb.

7:11, 12 The angels ... and the elders and the four living creatures join in worshiping God, although the subject of redemption is missing from their praise. As the hymnwriter said, “Angels never felt the joy that our salvation brings.” But they do chant His praises and pronounce Him worthy of seven distinct forms of honor.

 

[Cooper]

Revelation 7:13-15
7:13, 14 When one of the elders asked John who were these people in white and where did they come from, John confessed ignorance but a desire to know. Then the elder explained that they had come out of the great tribulation, and had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “When we stand face to face with an inexplicable mystery,” writes F. B. Meyer, “how comforting it is to be able to say in perfect faith, ‘Thou know est.’”

7:15 The elder went on to explain their present location and service. Bible students are not agreed as to whether this Gentile multitude is seen in heaven or on the millennial earth. The blessings described are true of either place. If the Millennium is in view, then the throne of God and His temple refer to the temple which will be located in Jerusalem during the Kingdom Age (Ezek. 40-44).

 

[Cooper]

The resultant blessings

Perfect nearness: Therefore they are before the throne of God.
Perfect service: and serve Him day and night in His temple.
Perfect fellowship: He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
7:16 Perfect satisfaction: They shall neither hunger nor thirst anymore;
Perfect security: the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
7:17 Perfect guidance: for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to fountains of the waters of life (NKJV margin).
Perfect God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

(From my Believers Bible)

 

[Taken]

[QUOTE="Davy, post: 818183, member: 7759]

Jesus does not come to gather His Church until the end of the tribulation, as He said in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.[/QUOTE]

Disagree with you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I didn't get my understanding of Rev.7 from "Others" that have shared with me.

Why tell me that?

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP, only. after reading a few post, which many are very good posts. not saying that any are right or wrong, but consider this
The sealing of the elect, the firstfruit of the whole house of Israel, the 144,000
Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
After these things, (the previous seal), But what and who are the the four “winds?” well there’s a difference between the four winds of Heaven and the four winds of the earth. here, the four winds of the EARTH are the four fallen angles that are bound in the great river Euphrates, (see Revelation 9:14). that's in contrast to the four winds of HEAVEN.
so, before the seventh seal is open, meaning a world wide judgment which is about to happen, it is put on paused by God. Why the pause? because of a world wide fulfillment, Matthew 24:31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” that’s why for the pause. For the elect or the “Firstfruit” of the whole house of Israel is sealed also. What do we mean by “Firstfruit” here? not of the Dead but of the living in spiritual restoration. Supportive scriptures, Romans 16:5 "Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ”. and 1 Corinthians 16:15 "I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,). did one notice the (s) at the end of each word “Firstfruits”. meaning more to come.

Question, "how do we know that these, 144,000 are the Firstfruits of the whole house of Israel? To understand that, we need to go to chapter 14. Revelation 14:1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (These are the same one’s in Chapter 7). verse 2 "And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: verse 3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. verse 4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”. BINGO, now we know that these 144,000 are the “Firstfruits” unto God and christ. note this, THEY WAS STANDING, SIGNIFYING, "VICTORY", meaning that they also has OVERCOME, “IN” him, Christ Jesus, who STANDS/OVERCOME. and one other thing, these virgins, are not males, (ONLY), but is of the church, 2 Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ”.

REMEMBER, Revelation is signified, so contrary to popular belief, NO, they are not all male virgins, (for in christ neither are male nor female). I know many believed that when they read, “were not defiled with women”, NO, it’s meaning that they was not defiled with false doctrine, as was with the scarlet… “WOMAN”. now one other thing, these 144,000 follow the Lamb, (the Spirit), supportive Scripture, Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Verse 2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Verse 3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Verse 4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”. (BINGO, they follow the Spirit, the Lamb).

The Mount here is not an actual mountain, but it Signify the church, (mount Zion), which is the GREAT Mountian, (again remember Revelation is signified). and as before, these 144,000 is just the firstfruit of many to come. (for John heard the number, but not the set number). a small number in comparison of such as should be amoung the coming harvest. how do we know this, listen to Revelation 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" BINGO, so the 144,000 was only the "first fruit" of many to come, (the church).

PICJAG.

PS,
“having his Father's name written in their foreheads” this is their open profession of being the children and servants of God. 1 Timothy 6:12 "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses”. Hebrews 10:23 "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised”.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is it because God is unable to accommodate any more than that? How did he arrive at 144,000 rather than 144,827 or 143, 822? Exactly 144,000? Seems weird to me.

The 144,000 is difficult. I've held several views on it over the last several decades. My current thought is that it must be symbolic, since the tribes of Israel no longer exist as such. The tribes were really only meant to result in a nation--not remain separate tribes forever.

When the Northern Kingdom of Israel went into captivity, the majority of the northern tribes were exiled and never returned. But small portions of each of the ten tribes had gone over to Judah, because the true temple worship was there. Thus, all 12 tribes continued to be represented in the Southern Kingdom of Judah, and survived even through the Babylonian Captivity.

It is essential for God to present all 12 tribes as the future Hope of Israel because He promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that He would do this for all Israel--for all 12 tribes. And so, portions of each of the 12 tribes are still represented among the Jewish People today, although they are no longer distinguished as "tribes." They are, nonetheless, there! They are a menagerie that contains descendants of all 12 tribes, which is what God promised the patriarchs.

The quantity mentioned is important because 144,000 is the size of a major national Army. Those in Israel who are coming to faith in Jesus as Messiah will become, I think, an Army in the last days. This is a spiritual Army who will presage the ultimate salvation of all of national Israel. When Christ comes back, many in Israel will come to faith in Jesus. And as a result, there will be restored an entire nation--not just a part of a nation salvaged from war. An entire nation will be rebuilt around faith in Jesus, just as this 144,000 represent.

The significance of this prophecy is in their survival, because God's current punishment of the Jewish People threatens their survival. But God is here guaranteeing that through a remnant of faith, Israel will survive until Messiah comes back to initiate their final Salvation, when pagan nations will never again destroy them.

 

[Enoch111]

The 144,000 is difficult.

Why? Everything is plainly stated. So all it takes is faith to believe that when God says something He means it.

12,000 saved Israelites/tribe x 12 tribes = 144,000 redeemed Jews.

 

[Taken]

The task of the "great multitude" of Rev.7 also is on earth during the tribulation.

There is no task given them.

Those certainly do not wash their robes making them white in the Blood of The Lamb by sitting around doing nothing

Do you not know what is going on Then?

but waiting to be raptured out of the tribulation.

Rapture has already Occured.

They wash their robes by making a 'stand' against the fiery darts of Satan in the "evil day", with the Gospel Armor on (Ephesians 6). That's why the Rev.7 Scripture says they came out of great tribulation, not escape out of great tribulation.

Who exactly do you think THEY are that come out of the Tribulation?

Glory to God,
Taken