Purgatory and Praying to Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[quietthinker]

When there is error in a premise the whole idea is corrupted. Only the Spirit of God can teach when there is willingness. If the error is insisted on the darkness gets deeper. And how is one to know error from truth? ....and how is one to recognise light from darkness? .....if one has eyes to see it will be as obvious as day is from night.....if one cannot tell they have not seen light.

 

[Berserk]

Blood Bought,

You engage in simple-minded pontifications based on false caricatures without a willingness to actually get into Word and address each Bible-based argument for Purgatory on a case by case basis. That's because you have no answer but irrational bluster. Surely you don't expect your readers to take what you say seriously.

justbyfaith "I don't believe that this is talking about Gehenna. I have looked at your reasons for believing it is and reject them. It is clearly talking about debtor's prison on earth."

No one care what you don't believe unless you address my multi-faceted proof point by point.

justbyfaith: "Except that the unforgiving servant owes an inextricable amount of money; that he cannot possibly pay in his lifetime."

Of course. He must pay off the debt after his earthly lifetime in Purgatory. The use of the word "until" in both texts implies the possibility of ultimately paying the debt in the Hereafter. Interesting that you duck my main text (1 Cor 3:15!

 

[Taken]

Beserk-

So in essence your explaining purgatory lands on:

Matt:5
[26] Verily I say unto thee, "Thou shalt by no means come out thence," till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

And you have this supplemented with... coming out of Gehenna/ Hell.

So Catholics are praying TO saints in Heaven... for unsaved souls in hell to be finished paying their due and come out of hell....Saved?

If that is not correct...reword it to establish your point.

Taken

 

[K9Buck]

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin or sins committed before salvation is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must, in order to be saved, pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins, then Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.got?

hope this helps !!!

If your child is very dirty from playing outside, would you ask them to take a shower and put on clean clothes before joining everyone else at Christmas dinner?

 

[K9Buck]

I was hoping to read your post but as it was not set out in paragraphs I did not bother.

It was a very reasoned and informative post.

 

[K9Buck]

Blood Bought,

You engage in simple-minded pontifications based on false caricatures without a willingness to actually get into Word and address each Bible-based argument for Purgatory on a case by case basis. That's because you have no answer but irrational bluster. Surely you don't expect your readers to take what you say seriously.

justbyfaith "I don't believe that this is talking about Gehenna. I have looked at your reasons for believing it is and reject them. It is clearly talking about debtor's prison on earth."

No one care what you don't believe unless you address my multi-faceted proof point by point.

justbyfaith: "Except that the unforgiving servant owes an inextricable amount of money; that he cannot possibly pay in his lifetime."

Of course. He must pay off the debt after his earthly lifetime in Purgatory. The use of the word "until" in both texts implies the possibility of ultimately paying the debt in the Hereafter. Interesting that you duck my main text (1 Cor 3:15!

My brother believed in Jesus and was a raging alcoholic when he died. I cannot fathom that Jesus would throw my brother into the trash. That's something that Satan would do, not Jesus.

It makes perfect sense that we get cleaned up and presentable before Jesus introduces us to God almighty.

It's not about being forgiven; it's about being spiritually pure in order to enter Heaven. Some have the view that, upon meeting Jesus, we instantaneously become perfect. I think that is unlikely. I think we have the same attitude after we die as we had before we died. So, again, it makes sense to me that, while we are forgiven, we still have lessons to learn which will ultimately lead us to being like Christ and which will then permit us to meet God face-to-face.

 

[K9Buck]

He must pay off the debt after his earthly lifetime in Purgatory. The use of the word "until" in both texts implies the possibility of ultimately paying the debt in the Hereafter.

I believe that would apply to sin for which the sinner is unrepentant, correct?

 

[ChristisGod]

If your child is very dirty from playing outside, would you ask them to take a shower and put on clean clothes before joining everyone else at Christmas dinner?

and your point

 

[ChristisGod]

My brother believed in Jesus and was a raging alcoholic when he died. I cannot fathom that Jesus would throw my brother into the trash. That's something that Satan would do, not Jesus.

It makes perfect sense that we get cleaned up and presentable before Jesus introduces us to God almighty.

It's not about being forgiven; it's about being spiritually pure in order to enter Heaven. Some have the view that, upon meeting Jesus, we instantaneously become perfect. I think that is unlikely. I think we have the same attitude after we die as we had before we died. So, again, it makes sense to me that, while we are forgiven, we still have lessons to learn which will ultimately lead us to being like Christ and which will then permit us to meet God face-to-face.

so go would save a raging rapist who murders his victims up until his death bed ?

1 Cor 6:9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

1 Cor 5:6-13
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

Gal 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[K9Buck]

and your point

Never mind. Thanks.

 

[Berserk]

I believe that would apply to sin for which the sinner is unrepentant, correct?

Good point. Unlike the Fundamentalist interpretation of 1 Cor 3:12-15 the Catholic interpretation recognizes 4 key points:
(1) that the meaning of jargon phrases like "save, yet so as by fire" derives its meaning from its use in the ancient Jewish cultural context;
(2) that the rabbinic concept of Gehenna, shared by Jesus, overlaps with the later Catholic concept of Purgatory;
(3) that the purgatorial understanding of 1 Corinthians 3:15 makes it compatible with a the purgatorial understanding of Matthew 5:25-26, which must be understood in an analogous way with Matthew 18:34;
(4) that Christians die in the same moral state and character with which they lived and that many have too many character flaws to live immediately in the sinless and pure realm of Heaven.

Many evangelicals act as if carnal Christians suddenly lose their free will and become sinless saints as soon as they enter Paradise, thus overlooking the biblical teaching that after death we are the same human being with the same character traits: The revealing angel makes that point to John in Revelation 22:10: "Let the evildoer still do evil, let the filthy still be filthy, let the righteous still so right, let the holy still be holy." It is only logical, then, that, for many Christians, a postmortem state of purification (Purgatory) is necessary for entrance in the purified realm of Paradise.

 

[justbyfaith]

justbyfaith: "Except that the unforgiving servant owes an inextricable amount of money; that he cannot possibly pay in his lifetime."

Of course. He must pay off the debt after his earthly lifetime in Purgatory. The use of the word "until" in both texts implies the possibility of ultimately paying the debt in the Hereafter. Interesting that you duck my main text (1 Cor 3:15!

No; it is a parable and within the meaning of the parable is the idea that the servant owes a debt that he cannot pay.

 

[justbyfaith]

justbyfaith "I don't believe that this is talking about Gehenna. I have looked at your reasons for believing it is and reject them. It is clearly talking about debtor's prison on earth."

No one care what you don't believe unless you address my multi-faceted proof point by point.

My faith that your multi-faceted points are invalid stands as evidence that your points are invalid (Hebrews 11:1).

 

[BloodBought 1953]

You engage in simple-minded pontifications based on false caricatures without a willingness to actually get into Word and address each Bible-based argument for Purgatory on a case by case basis. That's because you have no answer but irrational bluster. Surely you don't expect your readers to take what you say seriously.

I am not going to waste my time “ addressing” the “Hog Wash” Pretend World Of Purgatory any more than I would waste my time discussing “ Karma ” or “ Nirvana”..... even a child can recognize B. S. When he smells it! Anybody that believes in Purgatory absolutely has NO CLUE about Biblical Christianity......Jesus died for your sins— Christianity 101...
1 John 1:7—- “ The Blood Of Jesus cleanses us from ALL Sin.....”

Rev 22:3....” well done, GOOD and Faithful Servant ......enter into the Joy Of the Master....”

Who came up with the Damnable Idea That the Saints would OVERRULE Jesus and say .... “ Hey! Hold Everything! You ain’t “ good enough” yet! Jesus got ahead of Himself there! Now get back out there outside the Gates and Finish for yourself what Jesus couldn’t accomplish “ By Himself” — the Blood you see over there that Jesus Sprinkled onto the Mercy Seat Just is not Sufficient to “ Save To The Uttermost”....
The very “ idea” of this Scenario playing out makes me want to Vomit.....shame on all of you Tramplers Of The Blood Of Jesus.....have fun discussing your God Damned Blasphemy!
Never was it more apt to say—- “ Father, forgive them .....they know NOT what they do... “

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Except that the unforgiving servant owes an inextricable amount of money; that he cannot possibly pay in his lifetime.



I don't believe that this is talking about Gehenna. I have looked at your reasons for believing it is and reject them. It is clearly talking about debtor's prison on earth.



In 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, those who have wood, hay, and stubble built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ will experience loss of reward and that is all.



Homosexuals can be redeemed (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, esp. v.11).

Yes they can be redeemed, I never said they could not.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes they can be redeemed, I never said they could not.

Oh...I thought you said they can not enter into the kingdom of God...I believe that you are now qualifying your statement to mean that they cannot enter the kingdom unless they repent and are cleansed by the blood of Christ.

that's Gays in fact, people who idolise and so forth. now such people can not enter the Kingdom of God the Bibles says

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The whole notion if Purgatory came straight from Hell.....I hope readers will take the time to investigate the details of Satan’s Favorite Fairy Tale.....It would be hilarious if not for the fact that the belief in it has sent millions Of Souls to Hell ( why turn to God if you can pay for your sins on your own? Sin up a storm.....be willing to withstand a thousand years or so Of torment and then be “ good to go!” )
I bet that Satan “ Still” rolls his eyes that ANYBODY could believe this Clap-Trap ! He must be thinking, “Wow, these Bible-Ignorant Fools will buy “ ANYTHING !”
Here’s a little peak at some of the asininity involved in the belief in Purgatory.......ya see,You were “ good enough” to merit Heaven and Jesus let’s you in......however , the Saints come up to you and convince you that you will feel better in the Long Run if you go back outside the gates and suffer some punishment for your sins......apparently the Punishment That Jesus endured on the Cross for All Of the Sins Of Mankind was pretty good, but it just wasn’t “ enough”—— you gotta be willing to take some of it too! Kinda be a “Co-Savior”..........and, after all, it’s for your “ own” good.......you’ll feel more Worthy in Eternity ....
What a “ Trampling on the Blood “ this is ! What a God - Damned , Satanic ploy to get blind fools into Hell......Satan giggles.....he can’t believe anybody bought this Hog Wash.......Anybody that buys into the Lie Of Purgatory is 100% clueless about Christianity and what Jesus accomplished at the Cross....That would include the esteemed C.S.Lewis......even the so-called “ intelligent” can be deceived by Satan , as he was......

The old Carnal mind ! who peddles a worldly Jesus done deal dribble. oh you just have to sort of believe and that's it, you are saved in your own sins devoid of Christ Jesus. just Religious nonsense ! nothing more than the workings of Satan.

You can't know Jesus is truly the Christ until you are truly born again in fact, so all they who don't know him are not worthy of Heaven, but they who are not against him and have a little faith have a chance eventually precious. so they do not go to Hell. Jesus says you will pay for yours sins and that the wagers of Sin is death, is it not. not to mention I know many who are proud of their Sins in truth because they love doing such and demand they are going to Heaven regardless because of the blood as you say. they claim a god given right to such, but no ! you have to pick the gift up, not use it as a crutch.

So it comes across as just believe, so you can boast, no demand you are going to Heaven among men ? you take Jesus off the Cross as well because you can't stand him. you have a false cross, the Cross never saved anyone. the Cross that we must bear is Jesus Christ in Spirit, not some trinket.

Where did Jesus go bro ! well it says so ! Jesus went and got them ? they were not in Heaven or Hell. you have another Jesus, because you are rejecting what Jesus truly did in fact. you can't handle the fact, so you have to rant and rave. for you don't have the Holy Spirit to understand the situation.

The other way is that you yourself claim merit and Jesus is not in the picture for you at all because he is dead to you, but to us who are truly born again he is just alive now as ever.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Oh...I thought you said they can not enter into the kingdom of God...I believe that you are now qualifying your statement to mean that they cannot enter the kingdom unless they repent and are cleansed by the blood of Christ.

Well they in that position can not enter into the Kingdom of God, so they must reject such Satanic nonsense turn and abide in Jesus Christ to enter into the Kingdom of God. because when one is truly born again, one then is sent out amongst the wolves of this world. because they are coming from the Kingdom of God, that what Saints are = Israel Servants of God. remember Jacob was named a Servant of God = Israel, that's what he did. he served God in fact.

If one claims that the sick depraved can enter into Heaven they are of Satan.

 

[justbyfaith]

If one claims that the sick depraved can enter into Heaven they are of Satan.

The sick/depraved can enter the kingdom...of course they must repent so that they are no longer sick/depraved...But they are to come as they are...as sick/depraved. Because the Lord catches the fish first and then He cleans them. So then, repentance will come as the result of being forgiven, for many (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19).

 

[marksman]

It was a very reasoned and informative post.

Glad to hear that. All it needs now is to put it in correct grammar and use paragraphs.