Purgatory and Praying to Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Berserk]

marksman: "I do not see any reference to...dead saints in Hebrews 12:1"

Because you haven't bothered to read my refutation.

Marksman: "I do not see any reference to purgatory in Hebrews 12:22"

Duh, I don't claim such a reference there.

marksman: "There is no mention of deceased saints in Luke 15."

Marksman: "There is no mention of deceased saints talking to him in Luke 9."

You don't consider Moses a deceased saint (9:30)?

marksman: In Revelation 6 the deceased saints were told to rest, not intercede."

Duh, but they actually do intercede with God for vindication of the martyrs.

marksman: "No designation of living and deceased saints in revelation 5."

The 24 elders are deceased saints. See the commentaries on Revelation.

"The paragraph about the tile Lord God has nothing at all to do with purgatory"

Duh, who said it did?

marksman: "Maccabees is not part of scripture so it is not authoritative."

Are you saying you can't learn from history books accepted by Jesus' followers?

Evangelicals have no adequate response to the biblical basis for the Catholic doctrine of Communion of the Saints as spelled out in this thread.

marksman: "It seems your only basis is speculation as to what certain scriptures mean. And as all the scriptures you have listed do not mention deceased saints or purgatory on the basis of exegesis"

That insipid comment demonstrates that either you haven't read the OP's case for Purgatory or haven't understood it.

marksman: "In my name. Whose name? The name of Jesus. What is there about that you do not understand?"

As usual, you miss the point: if Christians can disregard Jesus' wishes and pray directly to Him, why can't they pray to deceased saints, something Jesus never prohibits?

marksman: "they are dead and generally speaking dead people don't do anything because they are.....dead."
'

Do you actually need a lecture on the blizzard of texts that imply that we survive fully conscious after death?

 

[quietthinker]

kcnalp's quote :
"Gonna be a lot of disappointed Catholics who find themselves in Hell fire forever and ever!"

Plus I'm reading other views on the catholic religion

The options are life or death....not life in flames for eternity. Can you imagine a God who loves so much he is prepared to humble himself and walk amongst his own creation so that they can see what he is like to then put people who reject him into a place that burns them with no end in sight??.....No no, that theory is one invented by the devil himself. It misrepresents God and paints him with the characteristics of the devil himself.

The scripture says God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked......and it was the devil who told Eve she would live forever if sheath the forbidden fruit. We know that was a lie because God said thy would die. Like I said earlier, death is not living forever in flames for eternity. Death is when you are no longer alive.

 

[marksman]

True, the word "Purgatory" is not biblical, but "Purgatory" means postmortem "realm of purgation or purification" and such a realm is solidly biblical. Read my post earlier in the thread that demonstates this. Praying to the saints is not idolatry because it's like asking a mature Christian friend to pray for you. In other words, you know from Scripture that the dead monitor the lives of the living and pray for them. [For biblical proof see my post above.] So you just reach out them and ask them to pray to God on your behalf or on behalf of your Mom.

 

[Berserk]

quietthinker: "The options are life or death....not life in flames for eternity."

Just another indefensible pontification from evangelicals who are incapable of following a rigorous exegetical argument. No dissenter has even attempted to engage point by point the case set out in the OP. I know of no educated Bible scholar who tries to defend annihilationims biblically. If you are an annihilationist, make your case.

Here are 2 impressive modern examples of intervention from deceased saints:
(1) Providentially, I recently saw an excellent example of effective prayer to the saints on a Travel Channel documentary. A young man's house was haunted by a huge horned apparition of an entity identifying itself as Belial, a term for Satan. The young man went to his pastor for help and the pastor came to the house, only to be paralyzed with terror when Belial appeared and assaulted him. With great difficulty the young man helped drag the pastor from his home, but was again confronted by Belial. Belial forced him to the ground and began to sap the life force out of him. But in desperation, he recalled and meditated on a saying his deceased Christian grandpa taught him to recall, "No life is more powerful than merciful love." This meditation summon his grandpa's spirit who initially appeared as orbs of light but then appeared in luminous full-bodied form. An overpowered Belial was forced to depart and leave the young man alone. Praise God!

(2) My next impressive example is quoted from David Fontana's book, "Is There an Afterlife? A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence," p. 365:

"On Sept. 17, 1952, when...Catholic priests, Father Ernetti...and Father Gemelli...were investigating in the university's Experimental Physics Lab ways of filtering the taped sound of Gregorian Chants in order to enhance their acoustical purity. The efforts of the 2 priests were hampered by the fact that the wire used by tape recorders before the invention of magnetic tape broke frequently, and required constant and delicate repair work. Finally Father Gemelli, as was his habit when exasperated, called on his deceased father for help. On starting the machine again, the Fathers heard, not he Gregorian Chant on which they were working, but the voice of Gemelli Senior: "Of course I'll help you! I'm always with you.""

"The astonished priests obtained an auidience with Pope Pius XII to acquaint him with the incident, and were reassured by his strongly positive response. He considered that the reception of a voice through an electronic machine might initiate "a new scientific study for confirming faith in the afterlife.""

 

[quietthinker]

quietthinker: "The options are life or death....not life in flames for eternity."

Just another indefensible pontification from evangelicals who are incapable of following a rigorous exegetical argument. No dissenter has even attempted to engage point by point the case set out in the OP. I know of no educated Bible scholar who tries to defend annihilationims biblically. If you are an annihilationist, make your case.

Here are 2 impressive modern examples of intervention from deceased saints:
(1) Providentially, I recently saw an excellent example of effective prayer to the saints on a Travel Channel documentary. A young man's house was haunted by a huge horned apparition of an entity identifying itself as Belial, a term for Satan. The young man went to his pastor for help and the pastor came to the house, only to be paralyzed with terror when Belial appeared and assaulted him. With great difficulty the young man helped drag the pastor from his home, but was again confronted by Belial. Belial forced him to the ground and began to sap the life force out of him. But in desperation, he recalled and meditated on a saying his deceased Christian grandpa taught him to recall, "No life is more powerful than merciful love." This meditation summon his grandpa's spirit who initially appeared as orbs of light but then appeared in luminous full-bodied form. An overpowered Belial was forced to depart and leave the young man alone. Praise God!

(2) My next impressive example is quoted from David Fontana's book, "Is There an Afterlife? A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence," p. 365:

"On Sept. 17, 1952, when...Catholic priests, Father Ernetti...and Father Gemelli...were investigating in the university's Experimental Physics Lab ways of filtering the taped sound of Gregorian Chants in order to enhance their acoustical purity. The efforts of the 2 priests were hampered by the fact that the wire used by tape recorders before the invention of magnetic tape broke frequently, and required constant and delicate repair work. Finally Father Gemelli, as was his habit when exasperated, called on his deceased father for help. On starting the machine again, the Fathers heard, not he Gregorian Chant on which they were working, but the voice of Gemelli Senior: "Of course I'll help you! I'm always with you.""

"The astonished priests obtained an auidience with Pope Pius XII to acquaint him with the incident, and were reassured by his strongly positive response. He considered that the reception of a voice through an electronic machine might initiate "a new scientific study for confirming faith in the afterlife.""

It is not a surprise that Satan presents himself as an angel of light.
The danger of believing the dead are alive is that you will never know definitively who is presenting in apparitions.

Opened to that channel you become the play thing of forces greater than human abilities.

The Hebrews were warned on pain of death to have nothing to do with diviners and conjurors of 'the dead' and for good reason.
The warning stands today. If one chooses to ignore it, it is at the peril of deception, even ones life.

In these last times it will be the hand of 'religion' grasping the hand of spiritualism that will bring humanity to the final great deception and only those who whose knowledge, whose experience and whose faith is based on 'thus saith the Lord' will escape.

 

[Berserk]

quietthinker"It is not a surprise that Satan presents himself as an angel of light.
The danger of believing the dead are alive is that you will never know definitively who is presenting in apparitions. Opened to that channel you become the play thing of forces greater than human abilities."

Translation: If your experience doesn't fit my impoverished limitations of what God can do, it must be of the devil." During the great outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, Peter declares," In the last days,...your young men shall see visions (Acts 2:17, citing Joel)."

quiethinker: "The Hebrews were warned on pain of death to have nothing to do with diviners and conjurors of 'the dead' and for good reason.
The warning stands today. If one chooses to ignore it, it is at the peril of deception, even ones life."

Quietthinker is apparently incapable of thinking--or reading carefully. The examples given came totally unexpected and had nothing to do with "diviners and conjurers."

 

[quietthinker]

quietthinker"It is not a surprise that Satan presents himself as an angel of light.
The danger of believing the dead are alive is that you will never know definitively who is presenting in apparitions. Opened to that channel you become the play thing of forces greater than human abilities."

Translation: If your experience doesn't fit my impoverished limitations of what God can do, it must be of the devil." During the great outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, Peter declares," In the last days,...your young men shall see visions (Acts 2:17, citing Joel)."

quiethinker: "The Hebrews were warned on pain of death to have nothing to do with diviners and conjurors of 'the dead' and for good reason.
The warning stands today. If one chooses to ignore it, it is at the peril of deception, even ones life."

Quietthinker is apparently incapable of thinking--or reading carefully. The examples given came totally unexpected and had nothing to do with "diviners and conjurers."

you miss the point Berserk. The point being as quoted 'The danger of believing the dead are alive is that you will never know definitively who is presenting in apparitions. Opened to that channel you become the play thing of forces greater than human abilities."

Counterfeit Spirit(s), ie, 'outpouring' plays right into the reality of those who hold that the dead are not dead and so the final deception will be overwhelming for its believers......why? because they received not the love of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Berserk]

you miss the point Berserk. The point being as quoted 'The danger of believing the dead are alive is that you will never know definitively who is presenting in apparitions. Opened to that channel you become the play thing of forces greater than human abilities."

Translation: The clear biblical teaching that the dead are alive should be rejected because we might confuse their communications, including the communications of the risen Jesus, with demonic counterfeits. Thus, the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the mount of Transfiguration , the appearances of deceased saints in Matthew 27:52-53 should be rejected!

 

[marks]

People see many things, but our walk is by faith and not by sight. Believing what God tells us, not what we see and hear and touch.

Muc love!

 

[quietthinker]

I will say this Berserk, your deviousness knows no end. In your post you have quoted me as appears below (in red) yet you have added your 'Translation' making it appear at first glance that it is from my pen.

Secondly, you muddy the waters by your statement 'including the communications of the risen Jesus, with demonic counterfeits'.

You deliberately forget that God who raises the dead can choose who and how and when to exercise this prerogative as he has done with Moses ignoring the fact that Elijah never saw death but was translated.
You then apply this principle opposing the clear statements of scripture that the dead are dead.

Your writings have the stamp of deception to which a day of reckoning will surely come.

quietthinker said: ↑
you miss the point Berserk. The point being as quoted 'The danger of believing the dead are alive is that you will never know definitively who is presenting in apparitions. Opened to that channel you become the play thing of forces greater than human abilities."

Translation: The clear biblical teaching that the dead are alive should be rejected because we might confuse their communications, including the communications of the risen Jesus, with demonic counterfeits. Thus, the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the mount of Transfiguration , the appearances of deceased saints in Matthew 27:52-53 should be rejected!

 

[Berserk]

quietthinker: "I will say this Berserk, your deviousness knows no end. In your post you have quoted me as appears below (in red) yet you have added your 'Translation' making it appear at first glance that it is from my pen.

Nonsense! "Translation" denotes my sarcastic flushout of the implications of your words.

quietthinker: "Secondly, you muddy the waters by your statement 'including the communications of the risen Jesus, with demonic counterfeits'."
No, I purify the waters of understand in 2 ways for the readers' benefit:
(1) I'm challenging you to create criteria for determining which communications from the dead are trustworthy and which are bogus.
(2) I'm alerting you to the absurdity of your claim that the dead, righteous and unrighteous, are dead and therefore incapable of communicating with the living. I summarily dispatch your claim from Scripture. Do you want to read my refutation or not?

quiethinker: "You deliberately forget that God who raises the dead can choose who and how and when to exercise this prerogative as he has done with Moses ignoring the fact that Elijah never saw death but was translated."

On the contrary, it is you who ignore the fact that Moses was dead, yet present on the Transfiguration mount. That fact makes Elijah's appearance irrelevant to the point at issue: whether the dead are now alive.

quietthinker: "You then apply this principle opposing the clear statements of scripture that the dead are dead."

An absurd claim that is easily refuted! I repeat: do you want to see my detailed refutation? Or would that be too threatening for you?

quiethinker: "Your writings have the stamp of deception to which a day of reckoning will surely come."
Ah, now the judgmental tone becomes explicit, a tone that prompted my bluntness in responding to your heretical screed. You continually duck my question because you're terrified that it is you who will be exposed as the "deceiver pushing false doctrine.

 

[Berserk]

THE SDA SOUL SLEEP HERESY

The SDA soul sleep heresy poses a barrier to the practice of praying to the saints and therefore needs to be refuted. This heresy arises from a failure to recognize progressive revelation from OT to NT times. The OT Sheol is not a realm of fully conscious postmortem survival and there is only one OT text that clearly implies an expectation of resurrection (the relatively late Daniel 12:1-2). Otherwise, Ecclesiastes 9:5 represents the OT consensus, even precluding the possibility of postmortem rewards: “The dead know nothing ; they have no more reward.” OT anthropology assumes that body and soul are inseparable, so that the soul cannot survive death without the body.

In the NT the term “ sleep” is used as a euphemism for the death of the body. But by now belief in Sheol has been replaced by a belief in Hades and Paradise as realms of immediate postmortem conscious survival. Thus, in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, the rich man is fully conscious in his immediate torment in Hades and Jesus comforts the dying thief on the cross with the words, “Truly I tell you, “Today you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43),” clearly implying that thief will be blissfully conscious in Paradise. Jesus reassures Mary that “He who lives and believes in me will never die (John 11:25-26);” that is, at death the righteous will shift from one form of conscious awareness to another. In Mark 12:26-27 Jesus infers from God's self-disclosure to Moses that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are currently alive and conscio“Have you not read in the Book of Moses in the story about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is God not of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus construes God's use of the present tense to imply, “I currently am” the God of the living dead, not “I used to be their God.” When Moses talks with Jesus about His mission on the Transfiguration Mount, the clear implication is that Moses is alive with God and is visibly manifested for the disciples' benefit. Though Elijah never died, the implication is that both men return from heavenly realms to be wit Jesus there.

In his later epistles Paul makes it clear that we survive fully conscious at death: “We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8) and “my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better, but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you (Phil. 1:23).”

In Rev. 6:10 the martyrs in Heaven prayerfully intercede in behalf of persecuted Christians who deserve vindication and justice and in 5:8 the 24 elders are discarnate humans patterned after the 24 Roman lictors, who play a priestly role in transmitting “the prayers of the saints” symbolized by their golden bowls full of incense.” Deceased saints are alive and intimately engaged with our lives as Christian athletes (Hebrews 12:1). Here they are portrayed not as preceding us, but as surrounding us, cheering us on and giving us aid. In historical Jewish literature deceased saints Jeremiah the Prophet and Onias III, the high priest, show up in a vision to Judas Maccabaeus, are addressed in prayers, and help him win a decisive battle, a fact recognized in Matthew 16:14. Modern experiences confirm the face that deceased saints miraculously respond to prayers and cries for help and I have given 2 examples. So while personally I don't pray to saints, I recognize that this practice is at least quite consistent with Scripture.

 

[quietthinker]

THE SDA SOUL SLEEP HERESY

The SDA soul sleep heresy poses a barrier to the practice of praying to the saints and therefore needs to be refuted. This heresy arises from a failure to recognize progressive revelation from OT to NT times. The OT Sheol is not a realm of fully conscious postmortem survival and there is only one OT text that clearly implies an expectation of resurrection (the relatively late Daniel 12:1-2). Otherwise, Ecclesiastes 9:5 represents the OT consensus, even precluding the possibility of postmortem rewards: “The dead know nothing ; they have no more reward.” OT anthropology assumes that body and soul are inseparable, so that the soul cannot survive death without the body.

In the NT the term “ sleep” is used as a euphemism for the death of the body. But by now belief in Sheol has been replaced by a belief in Hades and Paradise as realms of immediate postmortem conscious survival. Thus, in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, the rich man is fully conscious in his immediate torment in Hades and Jesus comforts the dying thief on the cross with the words, “Truly I tell you, “Today you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43),” clearly implying that thief will be blissfully conscious in Paradise. Jesus reassures Mary that “He who lives and believes in me will never die (John 11:25-26);” that is, at death the righteous will shift from one form of conscious awareness to another. In Mark 12:26-27 Jesus infers from God's self-disclosure to Moses that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are currently alive and conscio“Have you not read in the Book of Moses in the story about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is God not of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus construes God's use of the present tense to imply, “I currently am” the God of the living dead, not “I used to be their God.” When Moses talks with Jesus about His mission on the Transfiguration Mount, the clear implication is that Moses is alive with God and is visibly manifested for the disciples' benefit. Though Elijah never died, the implication is that both men return from heavenly realms to be wit Jesus there.

In his later epistles Paul makes it clear that we survive fully conscious at death: “We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8) and “my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better, but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you (Phil. 1:23).”

In Rev. 6:10 the martyrs in Heaven prayerfully intercede in behalf of persecuted Christians who deserve vindication and justice and in 5:8 the 24 elders are discarnate humans patterned after the 24 Roman lictors, who play a priestly role in transmitting “the prayers of the saints” symbolized by their golden bowls full of incense.” Deceased saints are alive and intimately engaged with our lives as Christian athletes (Hebrews 12:1). Here they are portrayed not as preceding us, but as surrounding us, cheering us on and giving us aid. In historical Jewish literature deceased saints Jeremiah the Prophet and Onias III, the high priest, show up in a vision to Judas Maccabaeus, are addressed in prayers, and help him win a decisive battle, a fact recognized in Matthew 16:14. Modern experiences confirm the face that deceased saints miraculously respond to prayers and cries for help and I have given 2 examples. So while personally I don't pray to saints, I recognize that this practice is at least quite consistent with Scripture.

You don't know what you're talking about Berserk. Your misrepresentation of the meaning of scripture is none other than doing your master's work.

 

[theefaith]

C. S. Lewis was rather inconsistent in his theology, and he had a lot of Catholic notions. So if he believed in Purgatory, it is not surprising. That does not mean it is a Bible doctrine. It simply means Lewis was confused about a lot of things.

As to praying to the saints and Mary, if you can go directly to God, why would you choose to go indirectly?

cos it’s not just an intercession but an example of holiness godliness and virtue, if you are a husband and father you can benifit from devotion to st. Joseph and His example of obedience and patience and faith in God!

 

[theefaith]

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The whole notion if Purgatory came straight from Hell.....I hope readers will take the time to investigate the details of Satan’s Favorite Fairy Tale.....It would be hilarious if not for the fact that the belief in it has sent millions Of Souls to Hell ( why turn to God if you can pay for your sins on your own? Sin up a storm.....be willing to withstand a thousand years or so Of torment and then be “ good to go!” )
I bet that Satan “ Still” rolls his eyes that ANYBODY could believe this Clap-Trap ! He must be thinking, “Wow, these Bible-Ignorant Fools will buy “ ANYTHING !”
Here’s a little peak at some of the asininity involved in the belief in Purgatory.......ya see,You were “ good enough” to merit Heaven and Jesus let’s you in......however , the Saints come up to you and convince you that you will feel better in the Long Run if you go back outside the gates and suffer some punishment for your sins......apparently the Punishment That Jesus endured on the Cross for All Of the Sins Of Mankind was pretty good, but it just wasn’t “ enough”—— you gotta be willing to take some of it too! Kinda be a “Co-Savior”..........and, after all, it’s for your “ own” good.......you’ll feel more Worthy in Eternity ....
What a “ Trampling on the Blood “ this is ! What a God - Damned , Satanic ploy to get blind fools into Hell......Satan giggles.....he can’t believe anybody bought this Hog Wash.......Anybody that buys into the Lie Of Purgatory is 100% clueless about Christianity and what Jesus accomplished at the Cross....That would include the esteemed C.S.Lewis......even the so-called “ intelligent” can be deceived by Satan , as he was......

Another attempt of morphing pagan points of view in an attempt to make it fit into the biblical narrative.
The bible knows nothing of purgatory nor of praying to saints. These doctrines are not God inspired!

purgatory is not mentioned in scripture its made up by the RCC.

Actually - that's about as true as saying that since the word "Trinity" is not in Scripture - that means the teaching is wrong.
That's an ignorant position to take.

Just because you won't find the WORDS like "Purgatory" and "Trinity" doesn't negate the teaching.
The words "Incarnation" and "Bible" aren't in the Bible, either. For that matter - neither is "Christophany" - but that DOESN'T mean there aren't examples of Christophanies in Scripture.

The plain fact is that Purgatory, or "final purification" is absolutely taught in Scripture.
In 2 Macc. 12:42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

We read in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day of judgment will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed:
“If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

- This CAN'T be Heaven because the person "suffers" loss - and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This CAN'T be Hell because the person is eventually "saved".
- This is talking about a THIRD state - the state of Final Purification.
Rev. 21:27 says that NOTHGING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven - and God, in His infinite mercy purifies many upon entering.

There are MANY verses that describe God handing out his justice as a Refiner. A refiner is someone who takes the raw material for metal and actually gets the gold and silver and iron from that material - and he does it with FIRE. We see in Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27-30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.

Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there IS purification after death for some.
Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

As for Heb. 12:1 mentioned earlier - this simply shows the Communion of Saints. It's not a verse about praying TO them.

Now - how about a sound, Scriptural refutation?

 

[jaybird]

the Essenes of Qumran (sect of John the baptist) were teaching soul purification long before the RCC ever came into existence.

 

[BreadOfLife]

the Essenes of Qumran (sect of John the baptist) were teaching soul purification long before the RCC ever came into existence.

And Orthodox Jews have prayers for the dead.

 

[theefaith]

Sin is forgiven by the mercy of God but the blood of Jesus thru the sacraments but there is still justice to be satisfied, temporal punishment due for sin, a father will forgive his son for breaking a window playing ball but the son has to pay for the window, lame example but sin has two parts and God provides a way for both, and purgatory is no necessary you can pray and do penance and expiate you’re sins, but it is charity to pray for those suffering the purify fires and they will pray for you unceasingly rev 5:8

 

[jaybird]

And Orthodox Jews have prayers for the dead.

why does anyone have a problem for praying for the dead?