In a recent discussion at Bible study we considered which of the 600+ laws from the Books of Law are applicable to Christians. Many felt that only the 10 commandments applied. The more I study the lessons in the Gospel of Matthew, the more I think perhaps we are subject to most of the laws - excluding blood sacrifice laws which were fulfilled by the great sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mosaic Law For Christians
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As a participant in the new covenant I am subject to HolySpirit and the old covenant (which includes the ten commandments) has been fulfilled and put away.
Tavita
New Member
I agree with Jiggyfly.
We are, under the new covenant, only subject to the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
There it is; there's always that second part added to the fulfilled statement of Matthew 5:
I have a hard time listening to anyone who says that all is currently accomplished, because we've got quite a bit of prophecy left to go. The fat lady has not sung yet.
There is a difference in putting something away and fulfilling it. If you say I put aside my obligation or put away my obligation, that means something distinct from I fulfilled my obligations. You folks are correct in saying that we are under the New Covenant which means that our Savior died for our sins on that cross. The key aspect of that is that while he fulfilled the ordinances of sacrifice, those laws still stand as he attests to immediately after the above verses. Just to give an example:
In other words, if it's put aside, then why does Christ waste time expanding the scope of the law? IE: It's just as bad to think about the act as it is to actually participate in it.
Newer translations butcher this verse, so I'll go back to the KJV because it's more specific:
It's knowing the difference between law, statute, and ordinances. Unlike the modern translations, you cannot lump some multiple different words into laws because there are a number of verses where the different terms are used like Nehemiah 9:14 KJV.
Like it or not, the law is a part of the New Covenant. Just have to study and understand how it works. The law cannot be looked upon as it was in the OT and in the days of the Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees. It's not a collection of rules meant to be followed to a T (or iota). It's our God's rules on how to live a good life, given to us so that we'll listen to our Father. Frankly we're going to mess up, and that's where Christ came in because he took away the need for daily sacrifices and other rituals. We have that rest in Him now whereby we are free. That simply doesn't mean that "Thou shalt not murder" etc. are of none effect.
I have a hard time listening to anyone who says that all is currently accomplished, because we've got quite a bit of prophecy left to go. The fat lady has not sung yet.
There is a difference in putting something away and fulfilling it. If you say I put aside my obligation or put away my obligation, that means something distinct from I fulfilled my obligations. You folks are correct in saying that we are under the New Covenant which means that our Savior died for our sins on that cross. The key aspect of that is that while he fulfilled the ordinances of sacrifice, those laws still stand as he attests to immediately after the above verses. Just to give an example:
In other words, if it's put aside, then why does Christ waste time expanding the scope of the law? IE: It's just as bad to think about the act as it is to actually participate in it.
Newer translations butcher this verse, so I'll go back to the KJV because it's more specific:
It's knowing the difference between law, statute, and ordinances. Unlike the modern translations, you cannot lump some multiple different words into laws because there are a number of verses where the different terms are used like Nehemiah 9:14 KJV.
Like it or not, the law is a part of the New Covenant. Just have to study and understand how it works. The law cannot be looked upon as it was in the OT and in the days of the Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees. It's not a collection of rules meant to be followed to a T (or iota). It's our God's rules on how to live a good life, given to us so that we'll listen to our Father. Frankly we're going to mess up, and that's where Christ came in because he took away the need for daily sacrifices and other rituals. We have that rest in Him now whereby we are free. That simply doesn't mean that "Thou shalt not murder" etc. are of none effect.
Romans 6.14: "Ye are not under the law, but under grace".
Galatians 3.24 & 25: "The law was out schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
Galatians 3.24 & 25: "The law was out schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
I don't see a point in reiterating what I said before because some willingly choose to ignore one part of Scripture over preference for another. However, if our Savior sat down and said not only should you not do these things to break the law, but to not even think them, then I really doubt he'd waste his time teaching an entire lesson of the subject if it were merely pushed to the side to be ignored.
Here's a little lesson for those whom read this thread: being forgiven is not the same as putting aside. Woe to those who take away!
A good Christian won't steal, won't murder, won't bear false witness, and so on. The focus has indeed shifted from the law to Christ, but Christ himself said I came to fulfill the law. It has by no means passed away.
Here's a little lesson for those whom read this thread: being forgiven is not the same as putting aside. Woe to those who take away!
A good Christian won't steal, won't murder, won't bear false witness, and so on. The focus has indeed shifted from the law to Christ, but Christ himself said I came to fulfill the law. It has by no means passed away.
forgivenWretch
New Member
Thinking that the Ten Commandments are null and void, are a huge part of what is wrong with our country today. Explains a lot.
I'm not saying go sin.
In fact, Paul says, 'Shall we sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!'
My point is that the New Testament believer is under grace, not the law, as Paul clearly also says, as quoted above.
In fact, Paul says, 'Shall we sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!'
My point is that the New Testament believer is under grace, not the law, as Paul clearly also says, as quoted above.
forgivenWretch
New Member
Yes we are under God's grace, but I believe we must still abide by the laws, especially, the ten commandments. Just because we are New Testament, that does not negate the Old.
Following righteousness out of love for Christ, and being under the Old Testament law are distinct. See the various quotes from Paul, above.
Tavita
New Member
If we are filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit, and God has written His Law in our hearts, as He promised would happen under the new covenant..... then we shall automatically be 'doing' the law. However, we are not 'doing' the spirit of the law if we are carnal and walking after the flesh. The flesh would always and ever be turning the spirit of the law into the letter. And this is the great lesson given in the OT... that man, by the flesh, cannot live by God's laws.
We have the Word of God to guide us, too, as the Spirit gives understanding.
Being under grace to Christ is an immense privilege which should encourage us in obedient, holy living.
Take care.
Tavita
New Member
I believe the Word of God is a great confirmation to what the Holy Spirit says to us in our hearts and how He guides us from within. Holy Spirit was given for our guidance into all truth, so as well as being within, God has given us the scriptures, yes, I agree.
Actually we are to be led by HolySpirit, following the letter only leads to death but the Spirit leads to life.
A huge amen Tavita.
Hi, I really couldn't find where Paul said we are in a "New Covenant" with anyone. He did not mention that, and being led by the same Spirit that led the Lord, I would beg you to consider that.
I did find it in Jeremiah 31Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: AV
But I'm not from that house, I'm from German stock, a race that never had the ordinances or the legislation, or the Commandments given to them. I don't think God wants us to purloin what doesn't belong to us, honestly.
I found it in Hebrews 8:
For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord, For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.AV Hb 8:7-11
I've tried reading the book as if I were Jewish, and it makes alot more sense that way. And God gets bigger, too, which is exciting for a small mind.
No, I couldn't find anywhere that the I's and T's were crossed by anyone else but Him, but like you said, it ain't over til the fat man sings, and Israel is yet to come into her own at His coming to earth to rule and reign with the Twelve Apostles as He promised with His own words and mouth.
fivesense
It is pretty much confusing, as can be seen, when the word of God is not correctly divided, isn't it?
fivesense
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...the difference now being that, as Paul says to the Romans and the Galatians, the New Testament believer is under grace.
evanom
New Member
I never ever ever understand the "law" debates. It is absolutely the simplest thing in the world: Jesus said NOT ONE JOT NOR ONE TITTLE of the law would pass until heaven and earth passed first. WHy does that go in one ear and right out the other of the gentile church?? Isn't anybody listening??? Jesus Christ said Himself in His very own words that NOT ONE JOT NOR ONE TITTLE OF THE LAW WOULD PASS!!!!!!! How can christians possibly debate this if Jesus said NOT ONE JOT NOR ONE TITTLE OF THE LAW WOULD PASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What in the world is wrong with us?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!!?
This reminds me so much of being a catholic: Jesus said do not do vain repetitions when praying and catholics do nothing but. Jesus said don;t call anyone father and the catholics call every one of their priests "father". GOd said no worshipping images and catholics love worshipping images.
Why do GOd's people absolutely love doing things backwards to the very things He says?!?!?!?!?!??!
This reminds me so much of being a catholic: Jesus said do not do vain repetitions when praying and catholics do nothing but. Jesus said don;t call anyone father and the catholics call every one of their priests "father". GOd said no worshipping images and catholics love worshipping images.
Why do GOd's people absolutely love doing things backwards to the very things He says?!?!?!?!?!??!
I concur with you hammer, the severity of the Lords' injunctions to Israel from the Mount was unbearable to the Pharisee. Yet to those who saw faith and grace shown in the face of the Blessed One, those kept following Him regardless. Most fled and returned to the Law and the Prophets to take refuge. "This man has a devil" was used to malign, and was no doubt credible to many. The Covenant People will not escape those injunctions, not ever, til He returns and has to write it on their hearts and minds supernaturally. Then they will do all that is in the Law to do in one accord with no resistence, and Messiah there to back it up.
"You have fallen from grace", is a sad thing to be spoken, indeed. Seeking by the strength of the flesh to conform to any portion of the ten commandments, or any portion of the Jewish law, is fatal to the Gentile called in grace through faith. How hard it is to return to humble sonship when a Pharisee takes up residence in the mind of a believer. Judgment, self-righteousness, schism, all the destructive elements of retaining the Covenant over grace, will taint everything we do or say.
Our eyes must be fixed on the Holy One and His declarations through Paul the Apostle, while remaining true to the rest of His record to His people Israel. He is the same today, yesterday, and though all the ages. What belongs to us, the Gentiles, should be cherished above all else. It is His Glory to have mercy on us, while hardening Israel. But we must not forget He is not done with the Law and Israel, its Keepers.
fivesense
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