That's just it...
The creators of the last version of the KJV said themselves that it wasn't right or accurate. They immediately created the RSV as a result of knowing all the errors inside the KJV.
John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again"
- Thread starter K9Buck
- Start date
-
- Tags
- born again
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The creators of the last version of the KJV said themselves that it wasn't right or accurate. They immediately created the RSV as a result of knowing all the errors inside the KJV.
7 is the number of perfection.
8 is the number of new beginnings.
I don't have the information handy. But I do accept it as coming from a valid source (a certain kjv-only website).
I don't think that this was ever answered:
post #91 (John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again")
Because his statement is incongruent.
It's like stating what the color blue tastes and smells like with theological authority.
God's choices are his own for reasons of his own. I make no claim to know exactly why God grants salvation to anyone including myself other than that God is good. No different than the exact same thing Paul claimed.
God is not capable of fitting inside any box mankind wants to fit him inside of. And anyone who tries usually ends up looking like a fool. I can look like an idiot all by myself without God's assistance. I have no desire to attract such attention by claiming otherwise.
Calvinists as a whole have been a two sided coin since the Queen Bloody Mary. They used the exile to create the Geneva Bible which was the premier bible for more years than any version of the KJV existed.
But the reading of scriptures without reference or proper hermeneutics created the many denominational differences that killed many people.
I'm not a Calvinist nor Arminian or anything. I'm not even a non-denominational person.
Kapeeshe?
Thread topic: John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again"
I agree with this statement of John MacArthur.
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
Nicodemus knew that Jesus is a teacher come from God in view of the miracles that Jesus had done and that God is with Him. However, at least at that point in time, he apparently is not able to see and understand that Jesus is the Christ, the King, which is the gospel. Looking at the response of Jesus to Nicodemus in verse 3, (which then is true of all who, like Nicodemus, that is, having knowledge and perhaps even believing that Jesus is a teacher come from God), that Nicodemus see not the kingdom of God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
First, the phrase "born again" here is what was used to translate the Greek phrase "gennēthē anōthen". It must be noted that the Greek phrase means to be "born from above", which clearly denotes being "born again". I'll refer to the birth that brought each man into existence as "first birth" and the birth spoken by Jesus here as the "second birth".
We know from scriptures that John the baptist, also Jesus himself and his disciples, went preaching that the kingdom of God is at hand. The kingdom of God that Jesus was referring to here in this passage is not the physical material kingdom like the kingdoms of the world as we know them. For obviously, if it was of this world, then every man who isn't blind will be able to see it, which would render the necessity of being "born again" to be able to see it, to be meaningless. Now, we learn from scriptures that Jesus Christ is the King of this kingdom, His kingdom. That this kingdom is a kingdom that is not of this world, is without mistake. Jesus himself revealed and said, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36).
In this writing of Apostle John, the use of the term "from above", such as in John 3:3,7,31; 19:11, is an indirect reference to heaven above or to God, in contrast to that which is figuratively referred to as from below, that is, the earth below that points to man. This makes the phrase "born from above" to clearly mean "born of God". So, Jesus was telling Nicodemus by the figurative phrase "born from above", that such birth isn't an earthly birth, as being "born of man", but is a birth after the doing or that which is brought about by the doing of God, who is in heaven above. People who experience the second birth are born of God. In John 1:13, we have John referring to such people, as were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jesus was telling Nicodemus here that to be able to see the kingdom of God, necessitates one to be born again or be born of God. This is obviously a work of God and not a work of man nor a work of the man being born. It is God who brings this about, according to His will and purpose, and not according to man's will. More so, this birth is not according to, and could not be according to, the will of the one being born. This is not difficult to understand and accept, in that, we know this pretty well, for in our birth, we have no knowledge, control, or influence whatsoever, with our being born. Why this seems difficult for some to understand this, makes me wonder.
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
I could sense here that Nicodemus was greatly surprised to hear something like that from Jesus. To his amazement, he threw out these two rhetorical questions in verse 4. Rhetorical in that, it's like any man obviously know the answers to these questions, and so really wanting no answer from Jesus. This response of Nicodemus suggests that what he was concerned about is, at least in his thinking at this point of their conversation, the absurdity of the necessity of being born again to be able to see the kingdom of God. This somehow exhibits either a lack of knowledge and understanding of the matter of this second birth, or perhaps the carnal mind and human understanding kicking in.
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
As I have pointed out in my discussion under John 3:3, regarding the matter of the "first birth", we have no knowledge, control, or influence whatsoever, in bringing this about. We must therefore here not forget that man have nothing to do in bringing it about.
I don't take this verse as a statement of Jesus that answers Nicodemus' question in v. 4. For as I pointed out, they are rhetorical questions where Nicodemus is really wanting no answer from Jesus. I take this as Jesus in some way clarifying what He told him in verse 3, saying it in another way.
Whatever its meaning, "born of water and the Spirit" must be synonymous to "born again" or "born from above" (v.3), since Jesus used this phrase to clarify the "second birth" for Nicodemus. These strongly suggest that, the phrase "born of water and the spirit" refer to only one birth rather than two, consistent with the birth Jesus was talking about in verse 3 which speaks only of one birth. Of the phrase "water and spirit", what this refers to is easily determined considering the context in verse 8, where Jesus illustrates to Nicodemus, using the "wind", how the "second birth" comes about. Jesus made it clear at the end of verse 8 that such is with those "born of the Spirit". Therefore, "born of water and spirit", consistent with "born from above", is just another way of saying "born of the Spirit" or "born of God". So that, here in verse 5, in other words, Jesus was simply telling Nicodemus that unless one is born of God, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
In the context of birth, Jesus here tells Nicodemus of two types of birth. One which is of the flesh, that is, of man, and the other one is which is of the Spirit, that is, of God. And that which is born of man and of the will of man (who is flesh), is of flesh, and that which is born of God and of the will of God (who is spirit), is of spirit. The former is the "first birth" and the latter as the "second birth".
So with regards the "second birth", Jesus was telling Nicodemus, that he is speaking of a birth that is of God, not a birth that is of man. Jesus by this, revealed that seeing and entering into the kingdom is a spiritual matter, not a matter of physical descent or merit, a revelation that most of the Jews in Jesus' day, apparently including Nicodemus, missed.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Jesus here seems to pull Nicodemus out of astonishment, telling him to marvel not about the matter of being born again or born from above. And Jesus, using "the wind", began to illustrate to Nicodemus, how it is with everyone that is born of the Spirit, speaking of the characteristic of the wind and how it operates, suggestive of how it is with the "second birth". That this birth comes about to one without his knowing it, as to when and how it comes about, and when it comes about to one, that it could somehow be perceived and not totally unknown or unknowable. This, Jesus said, is in like sense that man perceives the wind when it blows even while he cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. That whether with or without knowledge of it, it is nevertheless true, real, and it happens. With this illustration, it seems obvious that what Jesus wanted Nicodemus (and us of course) to know and understand of this "second birth" is that, this is according to the sovereign act and will of God, and is something beyond the control nor influence of man, in like sense that the wind is beyond the control and influence of man, and not really about how it actually happens or how God actually do it. This new birth therefore is not something that requires anything from man nor is something that calls for the participation and cooperation of man, for it to happen to one. A man is born again without knowing as to when and as to how it comes about.
Because Jesus speaks there about those "born of the Spirit", this leads us to the understanding that the "second birth" that He is talking about in verse 3, that is, "born again" or "born from above" refers to one that is of the Spirit, that is, of God.
___________________________________________________________________
As I have pointed out, and here point it out again, regarding the matter of birth, concerning one's own for that matter, we have no knowledge, control, or influence whatsoever, concerning it. We don't get to cause our birth, nor regenerate or reborn ourselves. However, I would have to say that it is only after birth, that we get to feed and grow, in the course of which we have some knowledge, control, and influence, concerning ourselves and of many other things other than ourselves.
Tong
R1078
I agree with this statement of John MacArthur.
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
Nicodemus knew that Jesus is a teacher come from God in view of the miracles that Jesus had done and that God is with Him. However, at least at that point in time, he apparently is not able to see and understand that Jesus is the Christ, the King, which is the gospel. Looking at the response of Jesus to Nicodemus in verse 3, (which then is true of all who, like Nicodemus, that is, having knowledge and perhaps even believing that Jesus is a teacher come from God), that Nicodemus see not the kingdom of God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
First, the phrase "born again" here is what was used to translate the Greek phrase "gennēthē anōthen". It must be noted that the Greek phrase means to be "born from above", which clearly denotes being "born again". I'll refer to the birth that brought each man into existence as "first birth" and the birth spoken by Jesus here as the "second birth".
We know from scriptures that John the baptist, also Jesus himself and his disciples, went preaching that the kingdom of God is at hand. The kingdom of God that Jesus was referring to here in this passage is not the physical material kingdom like the kingdoms of the world as we know them. For obviously, if it was of this world, then every man who isn't blind will be able to see it, which would render the necessity of being "born again" to be able to see it, to be meaningless. Now, we learn from scriptures that Jesus Christ is the King of this kingdom, His kingdom. That this kingdom is a kingdom that is not of this world, is without mistake. Jesus himself revealed and said, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36).
In this writing of Apostle John, the use of the term "from above", such as in John 3:3,7,31; 19:11, is an indirect reference to heaven above or to God, in contrast to that which is figuratively referred to as from below, that is, the earth below that points to man. This makes the phrase "born from above" to clearly mean "born of God". So, Jesus was telling Nicodemus by the figurative phrase "born from above", that such birth isn't an earthly birth, as being "born of man", but is a birth after the doing or that which is brought about by the doing of God, who is in heaven above. People who experience the second birth are born of God. In John 1:13, we have John referring to such people, as were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jesus was telling Nicodemus here that to be able to see the kingdom of God, necessitates one to be born again or be born of God. This is obviously a work of God and not a work of man nor a work of the man being born. It is God who brings this about, according to His will and purpose, and not according to man's will. More so, this birth is not according to, and could not be according to, the will of the one being born. This is not difficult to understand and accept, in that, we know this pretty well, for in our birth, we have no knowledge, control, or influence whatsoever, with our being born. Why this seems difficult for some to understand this, makes me wonder.
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
I could sense here that Nicodemus was greatly surprised to hear something like that from Jesus. To his amazement, he threw out these two rhetorical questions in verse 4. Rhetorical in that, it's like any man obviously know the answers to these questions, and so really wanting no answer from Jesus. This response of Nicodemus suggests that what he was concerned about is, at least in his thinking at this point of their conversation, the absurdity of the necessity of being born again to be able to see the kingdom of God. This somehow exhibits either a lack of knowledge and understanding of the matter of this second birth, or perhaps the carnal mind and human understanding kicking in.
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
As I have pointed out in my discussion under John 3:3, regarding the matter of the "first birth", we have no knowledge, control, or influence whatsoever, in bringing this about. We must therefore here not forget that man have nothing to do in bringing it about.
I don't take this verse as a statement of Jesus that answers Nicodemus' question in v. 4. For as I pointed out, they are rhetorical questions where Nicodemus is really wanting no answer from Jesus. I take this as Jesus in some way clarifying what He told him in verse 3, saying it in another way.
Whatever its meaning, "born of water and the Spirit" must be synonymous to "born again" or "born from above" (v.3), since Jesus used this phrase to clarify the "second birth" for Nicodemus. These strongly suggest that, the phrase "born of water and the spirit" refer to only one birth rather than two, consistent with the birth Jesus was talking about in verse 3 which speaks only of one birth. Of the phrase "water and spirit", what this refers to is easily determined considering the context in verse 8, where Jesus illustrates to Nicodemus, using the "wind", how the "second birth" comes about. Jesus made it clear at the end of verse 8 that such is with those "born of the Spirit". Therefore, "born of water and spirit", consistent with "born from above", is just another way of saying "born of the Spirit" or "born of God". So that, here in verse 5, in other words, Jesus was simply telling Nicodemus that unless one is born of God, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
In the context of birth, Jesus here tells Nicodemus of two types of birth. One which is of the flesh, that is, of man, and the other one is which is of the Spirit, that is, of God. And that which is born of man and of the will of man (who is flesh), is of flesh, and that which is born of God and of the will of God (who is spirit), is of spirit. The former is the "first birth" and the latter as the "second birth".
So with regards the "second birth", Jesus was telling Nicodemus, that he is speaking of a birth that is of God, not a birth that is of man. Jesus by this, revealed that seeing and entering into the kingdom is a spiritual matter, not a matter of physical descent or merit, a revelation that most of the Jews in Jesus' day, apparently including Nicodemus, missed.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Jesus here seems to pull Nicodemus out of astonishment, telling him to marvel not about the matter of being born again or born from above. And Jesus, using "the wind", began to illustrate to Nicodemus, how it is with everyone that is born of the Spirit, speaking of the characteristic of the wind and how it operates, suggestive of how it is with the "second birth". That this birth comes about to one without his knowing it, as to when and how it comes about, and when it comes about to one, that it could somehow be perceived and not totally unknown or unknowable. This, Jesus said, is in like sense that man perceives the wind when it blows even while he cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. That whether with or without knowledge of it, it is nevertheless true, real, and it happens. With this illustration, it seems obvious that what Jesus wanted Nicodemus (and us of course) to know and understand of this "second birth" is that, this is according to the sovereign act and will of God, and is something beyond the control nor influence of man, in like sense that the wind is beyond the control and influence of man, and not really about how it actually happens or how God actually do it. This new birth therefore is not something that requires anything from man nor is something that calls for the participation and cooperation of man, for it to happen to one. A man is born again without knowing as to when and as to how it comes about.
Because Jesus speaks there about those "born of the Spirit", this leads us to the understanding that the "second birth" that He is talking about in verse 3, that is, "born again" or "born from above" refers to one that is of the Spirit, that is, of God.
___________________________________________________________________
As I have pointed out, and here point it out again, regarding the matter of birth, concerning one's own for that matter, we have no knowledge, control, or influence whatsoever, concerning it. We don't get to cause our birth, nor regenerate or reborn ourselves. However, I would have to say that it is only after birth, that we get to feed and grow, in the course of which we have some knowledge, control, and influence, concerning ourselves and of many other things other than ourselves.
Tong
R1078
Last edited:
He gets close...but still missed the mark.
John Macarthur misses the anthropology. (He is a calvinist with a theology to promote)
And he misses on every other time that someone recognizes Jesus as the Messiah Jesus gives a gift only God can give...
The blind man yelling out "Seed of David" (or probably translated as "Son of David" in most translations) is a direct name of the Messiah that isn't so obvious.
The man instantly gets his sight.
Anyone and everyone who recognized Jesus gets gifts... because this fulfills a prophecy.
Nicodemus is no different. Except he gets a lot more than a healing...he gets a legacy and a prophecy of coming catastrophe.
John Macarthur misses this entirely to focus on his pet theologies.
God states truth about the future...He doesn't make people choose anything. (About salvation)
Jesus in Matthew is seen as saying something about playing a flute and etc...they didn't laugh or cry. (Hard hearted)
Jesus is God...he didn't make anyone do anything.
And I look at the story of the "Rich Young Ruler". When Jesus asked him if he was saying that "only God is good" it was that possibly the rich guy was saying that Jesus was God...and he would have received a huge reward if he was. But instead he was just spouting off with shallow flattery.
He was so close and yet missed it. Right place, right time, right words and yet.....aaaarrrrggghhh.
Yes, God directs our paths. He puts us in the right place at the right time to accomplish His goals. But the attitude we do them with is our own.
Well, perhaps you can send that to John MacArthur so he can respond to it. That would be fair I guess.
Tong
R1079
You cannot win the argument, so you defer to John MacArthur. Perhaps you can send it to him and he will respond to it.
Jesus did say that no man can come to Him except the Father draws him. So, God draws, but we must yield to that drawing.
As for John MacArthur, I have serious issues with him because of his tongue-twisting and semantics on the blood of Jesus. I truly question whether he is saved or not. He may just be a Pharisee.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Lets see if you can do it.
Ready. ?
Put Jesus back in Heaven.
He has never come yet.
He is not manifested in the Flesh.
He is not virgin born, yet.
He has not died on the Cross, yet.
He is STILL in Heaven, as the "Word".
Now, lets see you give yourself the new birth.
Go ahead and try to be born again.
Twist that bible and make something up with verses you don't understand.
What?
You can't cause yourself to be born again?
Is that what you just said?
You mean your commandment keeping and your WATER BAPTISM won't quite do it ?????
Ok then.
Figure that out.
Once you figure that out, you are JUST BEGINNING to understand the Grace of God.
Ready. ?
Put Jesus back in Heaven.
He has never come yet.
He is not manifested in the Flesh.
He is not virgin born, yet.
He has not died on the Cross, yet.
He is STILL in Heaven, as the "Word".
Now, lets see you give yourself the new birth.
Go ahead and try to be born again.
Twist that bible and make something up with verses you don't understand.
What?
You can't cause yourself to be born again?
Is that what you just said?
You mean your commandment keeping and your WATER BAPTISM won't quite do it ?????
Ok then.
Figure that out.
Once you figure that out, you are JUST BEGINNING to understand the Grace of God.
John Macarthur I am sure knows about it at this point.
Preaching at the preacher is kinda so commonplace that it's past the point of being trite.
I'm sure he has been shown the translated documents and resulting theologies of his error.
He doesn't care.
He is as locked into Calvinistic theologies as there could ever be.
He preaches what his congregations want to hear. He can't get away from that if he wanted to. He has power, prestige, and money.
He would instantly become as hated as Jerry Falwell Jr at Liberty university.
And it wouldn't be the first time this sort of thing would come about.
I've read the notes of Jewish Rabbi who knew that Jesus was the Messiah but refused to give up Judaism because of their role in Judaism.
I've read the writings of SDA Church Bishops who knew that that they were wrong as well...but didn't give up their theologies either.
Same with Jehovah Witness...
Same with Mormons
At some point with all the wealth these guys have at their disposal and purchases of some of the expensive research that becomes available through research publications like JANES and etc they know exactly what the truth is but for reasons of their own they don't stop.
I've heard some of this stuff from a former lead pastor...he didn't know that he was telling on himself when he was saying certain things from the pulpit. I heard it though... even got the sermon recording just to make sure that I heard him correctly.
He was claiming to be a calvinist too...he certainly preached it often enough.
But basically he is like most popular pastor's...he preaches what the people want to hear. Every successful pastor preaches to a particular niche market. From extra conservative to ultra liberal and of course all points in between. Scriptures have said it often enough. You would think that people would believe it applies even to themselves.
I know that I can get caught up in it too...it's sooo soothing to my soul somehow. But when I have a chance to think about it... analyze it...and consider it. I dig and find the truth...the unpopular truth...the one without the gold and silver lamé covering it.
That we are saved by grace through FATE, and not through FAITH.
The blood of Jesus, I'd say refers really to His life. When scriptures speak of the blood of Jesus, it is a figure of speech that refers to His life as a whole.
Tong
R1081
That is not correct at all. The blood is a very important part of the atonement.
Leviticus 17
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
No Candidus. We are saved by grace through faith, not fate.
The issue is, if John MacArthur's statement, that is, "you have nothing to do with being "born again". And in response to the thread topic, I said in post #109, that I agree and have explained myself there. And there is nothing in there that even suggest to the slightest bit that we are saved by fate.
Tong
R1082
Similar threads
