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Featured John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again"

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by K9Buck, Sep 3, 2020.

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  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I have mentioned what I believe it means to be drawn to Christ; that it is an opportunity given to a man wherein he can make a decision for or against Christ that is unhindered by the demonic and/or the fact that he was born dead in trespasses and sins.

    As for "granted" in John 6:65, I consider that if it is granted to a man that he can come to Jesus, then he may or may not come to Jesus; because of what it says specifically in that verse; that no one can come to Jesus except it be given to him. If it is not granted to him then he cannot come to Him. If it is granted to him, then he is enabled to come to Jesus.

    In John 6:65 it is different than in John 6:37. For in John 6:65, no man can come to Jesus except it were given to him of the Father. While in John 6:37, all that the Father giveth to Jesus will come to Him.

    While in the intermediary verse, John 6:44, No one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him.

    Here, being drawn to Jesus and being given to Jesus are not the same thing.

    So, to recap:

    No one can come to Jesus unless it is given to them to do so; and unless the Father draws them. (John 6:44, John 6:65)

    Those to whom it is given will come (John 6:37; not John 6:65).

    Those who are drawn to Jesus may or may not come (John 6:44).

    To me, to come to Jesus Christ, means to come to Him in prayer, asking Him to save you. While this involves faith in Him, it is not specifically faith in Him; but coming to Him in faith, asking Him for forgiveness.
     
  2. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    The same thing you did with the phrase "comes to Me", wherein you actually make it to mean what it leads to and not what the phrase "comes to Me" really mean, you do here with the word "draw". You actually tell what to you ensues when one is drawn to Christ, and not really what the word "draw" really mean. In the Greek, the word translated "draw" in John 12:32 is "helkó" which means to drag, pull, persuade, unsheathe. The context will help the reader to what is meant, either drag, pull, persuade or unsheathe. John 12:32 and John 6:44 have a quite different context which means that the word "draw" in each verse would have a relatively different sense. That in John 12:32 as having more the sense of being pulled towards (attracted) Christ rather than having the sense of being persuaded (convicted) concerning Christ's person and identity. On the other hand, in John 6:44, "draw" there have the sense of being persuaded (convicted) concerning Christ's person and identity, more than having the sense of being pulled towards (attracted) Christ. Context guides us to arrive at that. Context in John 6:45 says " It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." That speaks regarding the drawing in v.44, which is, through the teaching by God, that the man learns from the Father. And so it says, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Jesus. That is they have been persuaded (draw, helko) concerning Christ that they come to Him, that is, believe in Him. The reason that they "come to Me (Jesus)" is their having been persuaded (convicted) by the Father.

    Again, the same thing you did with the phrase "comes to me", wherein you actually make it to mean what it leads to and not what the phrase "comes to Me" really mean, you do here with the word "granted". You actually tell what to you ensues if "granted" to a man and if not "granted" to a man, and not what the word "granted" really mean. In the Greek, the word translated "granted" in John 6:65 is a cognate of "didómi" which basically means to give. In John 6:37, the Greek word translated "given" is also a cognate of "didómi".

    With regards John 6:65, what do you say "had been granted" or "dedomenon" to him by the Father? I had in my other post asked you this question, but it seem that it did not catch your attention. Is it not his coming to Jesus? And what does it mean to come to Jesus? Is it not to believe or have faith in Jesus? In other words, that which have been granted to him (to the person) is his believing in Jesus Christ. So that, unless such is granted by the Father to the person, he can not come to Christ, that is, he cannot and will not believe in Christ. The context bears this out. For many of the disciples (followers) could not and effectively then, do not believe in Jesus, in what He was telling them concerning Himself. In the language and words of Jesus, they cannot "come to Me", unless it has been granted to him by My Father.

    And so there it is. Why we have this disagreement and different understanding on the subject of our discussion (with reference to John 6), is because we take the words "draw", "granted" and the phrase "comes to Me" in verse 37, 44, and 65, differently.

    Let me just make some comment on what you now take "to come to Jesus Christ", from having it mean salvation before, to mean now as praying to Him. If I take that to the verses 37, 44, 65 in John 6, we have the following:

    John 6:37.....All that the Father gives Me will (come to Me) pray to Me, and the one who (comes to Me) prays to Me, I will by no means cast out.

    John 6:44....No one can (come to Me) pray to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:65.... And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can (come to Me) pray to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

    Does the context bear that out? Clearly not. Not even a hint about praying to Jesus Christ is anywhere found in the context, even in the whole chapter of John 6.

    Tong
    R1139
     
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  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It's alright, @Tong2020.

    I have come to the understanding that Irresistible Grace is the reality, based on our discussion and a quoting of the verses in the following order:

    Jhn 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Jhn 6:65, And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Now the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is being put to the test; for I have prayed for our friend, @BreadOfLife, and have sought to evangelize him beginning with the following post:

    Jesus isn't Catholic

    So then, if Irresistible Grace is the reality, he cannot fail to come to Christ in the next 24 hours.

    Because I have also prayed for him (and encourage you to also do the same) that the Father will give him to Jesus Christ in the next 24 hours.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I did just notice that in John 6:37, the word "giveth" applies to the Father giving the person to Jesus; while in John 6:65, the word "given" applies to the fact that it is given to the person by the Father that they might come to Jesus.

    So that may have a bearing on our final understanding of these doctrines.
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It is only an obvious given that we come to Jesus by praying to Him.
     
  6. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    Glory and thanks be to God!

    I share your joy with that JBF!

    Tong
    R1140
     
  7. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. However, my point is that it is not what "come to Me" in John 6:37, 44, and 65 is out to convey.

    Tong
    R1141
     
  8. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    What joy that brings! Thanks be to God!

    Perhaps many refer to such grace as irresistible grace, for so in a sense it is. But I'd rather call it amazing grace. So so amazing, that to them who were quickened to see it, those whom the Father had given to the Son, could but not resist such grace from God, that they, in God's time, come to Jesus Christ. That even while the choice to reject or accept the gospel of Jesus Christ is very real, one could but not reject such an amazing grace, when he sees it.

    For sure, I am praying, and will continue to pray, not only for BreadOfLife, but for all others, who sees not yet this amazing grace of God, as well. As with regards the time when they will see it, God willing, that it be "today".

    Tong
    R1142
     
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  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your prayers - but I already belong to Christ.
    I appreciate your attempt to judge my soul - but that's GOD'S job - not yours.

    Your continued arrogance is noted . . .
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    We are to be fruit inspectors...

    And it is clear to me that you don't bear the fruit of one who is born again of the Holy Spirit.

    I expect that you will return this judgement back upon me; and that is fine: I can take it.

    Especially since what I am doing is returning some of your judgmental statements back on you.

    Jesus isn't Catholic
     
  11. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    WADR, I do not see arrogance in there. May I ask, do you pray for JBF, perhaps that he be converted like you were and be saved? Do you pray for other people as well, in that regard, perhaps even a couple or so people already belonging to your "church" whose faith may be questionable, evidenced by a sinful life?

    If one, when doubt comes to a person as to whether another already belongs to Christ or not, and prays for him that the Father gives him to Jesus Christ, sees that as arrogance, I think there is something wrong with that, that calls for a reconsideration.

    Tong
    R1143
     
  12. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    I suggest not an eye for an eye, rather give love.

    Matthew 5:38-48

    Tong
    R1144
     
  13. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    He and I have had MANY conversations - and he knows where I stand.

    He has judged that I do not belong to Christ because I am a Catholic and he is a lying anti-Catholic whom I have exposed on many occasions.
    THIS is why he claims to be "praying" for me.
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And it's abundantly clear to me that you bear rotten fruit.

    One this forum, you have lied many times in order to defend your position.
    That's NOT the sign of one who is in Christ - but I won't judge your soul as YOU have judge mine.
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    God bless you.
     
  16. Getitright

    Getitright Active Member

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    NO, he's not. He doesn't really understand the Bible. He preaches Churchianity.
     
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