The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Heyzeus]

Someone who is a killer all their life is not saved by grace through faith...

.

That is what Sola Fide Teaches. Justified by "Faith Alone" - no other requirements. Hilarious that you now try to include works into the salvation formulation .. sneak that in through the back door.

What part of "Faith Alone" is not clear to you ? Ya don't need to do nothing else .. which is why James called the folks who were practicing this doctrine foolish .. as does Jesus - whom Brother James is paraphrasing.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is what Sola Fide Teaches. Justified by "Faith Alone" - no other requirements. Hilarious that you now try to include works into the salvation formulation .. sneak that in through the back door.

No...it is not works that save. But genuine faith will produce a changed heart and life...which will produce works....but the works don't save....rather, the changed life is the salvation that is produced through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think you need to upgrade your definition of works. See- good we started at the Sunday School level. Works does not mean "we must work" as in "have a Job" - works is just as much about not doing bad deeds.. as it is about doing good deeds.

The we are addressing is "works vs Faith" - is "Faith Alone" sufficient to get through the pearly gates .. or can you be a killer all your life and it matters not.

You can start with the Sermon on the Mount Matt 5-7. I will summarize as it is too long to post .. you should read this sometime .. good stuff.

This is from the summary at the end .. throughout this sermon Jesus talks about how to live one's life "works" bad things not to do .. and so on. Jesus then summarizes stating that only those that do the "Will of the Father" get through the gate .. the "Will of the Father" being what he has just described throughout the Sermon - where he gives many examples of works .. introduces the concept of severity of sin .. even sets a bit of a bar ... but this is the summary.



So you can attend church every Sunday and hear the teachings of Christ - say your Hail Mary's and Amen's and pray "Lord Lord" - but that will not get you through the gates .. "Faith Alone is Useless" - James 2.

You must put those words into practice says Jesus - with the Golden Rule being at the top of the food chain .. "Do unto others"

Yes let’s define salvation by works

not found in scripture

works are a result of salvation. Not in order to receive salvation that would make salvation a reward not a gift

Jesus said whoever believe in him eats the break he came to give his flesh and blood will never die
Either you believe him or not

one last time

Where does Jesus say works save?

 

[justbyfaith]

We are contending that if I give $5 to the poor, or even $5,000,000; that this is not going to regenerate me and renew me in the Holy Ghost and produce salvation within me.

I cannot obtain the love of God by pretending to have it.

The love of God, enters in, only by faith (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is what Sola Fide Teaches. Justified by "Faith Alone" - no other requirements. Hilarious that you now try to include works into the salvation formulation .. sneak that in through the back door.

What part of "Faith Alone" is not clear to you ? Ya don't need to do nothing else .. which is why James called the folks who were practicing this doctrine foolish .. as does Jesus - whom Brother James is paraphrasing.

what part of not if works do you not comprehend?

james spoke to people who had zero faith. Proved by the fact they were hearers only. He did not contradict Paul he complimented him

Paul said we are saved by faith not works but our new creation works

James is saying if you claim you have faith but do not have the works Paul said you would have. Your faith is dead ie you are decieved

 

[Heyzeus]

Yes let’s define salvation by works

not found in scripture

works are a result of salvation. Not in order to receive salvation that would make salvation a reward not a gift

Jesus said whoever believe in him eats the break he came to give his flesh and blood will never die
Either you believe him or not

one last time

Where does Jesus say works save?

1) we are not talking about salvation "ONLY" by works - it could be a mixture of both that is required .. with Both components A and B being required ...

So yes ... let us define our terms .. A = Faith Alone B = Works Alone C = mixture of both

" Not found in Scripture" ... One more time. The vast majority of Christianity and Christian Doctrine - claims otherwise

Of course you can find C Surely you are not challenging this claim. I will give you the benefit of the doubt as you may have been in a black vs white paradigm .. Faith vs Works.

Both C and B refute Sola Fide. and the Majority sits past C on the spectrum .. as in between C and B .. as in Not in between C and A .. because A is an Absolute .. it is a Zero there is no in between .. it is called a foolish doctrine by James - brother of Jesus. James 2 then giving a fine example of C

Bottom line - you can't take works out of the equation .. they are interconnected - as per the doctrine of Jesus/James.

This was always the way .. until Martin Luther came round - some 13 - 14 centuries later. Not suggesting provenance necessarily makes right but "Faith Alone" is simply not something Christianity had been about prior to that. Now the ideology is dying a slow death .. but Fundamentalists are hanging on tight.



Note to self - Works are not always a result of salvation - and if they are your argument is circular - and thus a fallacy .. in many ways. and so back to romper room we go.

 

[BarneyFife]

I will address one of the scripture passages in question....Hebrews 6:4-6...

It should be clear that the rest of the chapter bears out that God gives the blessing of eternal security to those who cling to Christ as an anchor for their soul.

What about those who choose to stop clinging? That's what we're talking about here, isn't it?

 

[justbyfaith]

1) we are not talking about salvation "ONLY" by works - it could be a mixture of both that is required .. with Both components A and B being required ...

So yes ... let us define our terms .. A = Faith Alone B = Works Alone C = mixture of both

" Not found in Scripture" ... One more time. The vast majority of Christianity and Christian Doctrine - claims otherwise

Of course you can find C Surely you are not challenging this claim. I will give you the benefit of the doubt as you may have been in a black vs white paradigm .. Faith vs Works.

Both C and B refute Sola Fide. and the Majority sits past C on the spectrum .. as in between C and B .. as in Not in between C and A .. because A is an Absolute .. it is a Zero there is no in between .. it is called a foolish doctrine by James - brother of Jesus. James 2 then giving a fine example of C

Bottom line - you can't take works out of the equation .. they are interconnected - as per the doctrine of Jesus/James.

This was always the way .. until Martin Luther came round - some 13 - 14 centuries later. Not suggesting provenance necessarily makes right but "Faith Alone" is simply not something Christianity had been about prior to that. Now the ideology is dying a slow death .. but Fundamentalists are hanging on tight.



Note to self - Works are not always a result of salvation - and if they are your argument is circular - and thus a fallacy .. in many ways. and so back to romper room we go.

Yes, works are not always the result of salvation...and the fact that works don't save you ought to tell you something....that you can have many works and will not be saved by them.

The fact is that my doing any work does not have the power to regenerate and renew me in the Holy Ghost....that is, to save me.

Only faith has the power to do that.

Just read Galatians 3:14...we receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Works are not included in that.

Because we have the Holy Spirit, we have the love of God (Romans 5:5). And the love of God is practical in nature (1 John 3:17-18).

I am not saved through exhibiting the love of God....however, the fact that I exhibit the love of God is in fact the evidence that I am truly saved.

Thus I am "justified" (i.e. "declared righteous" before men...Romans 4:2) by my works, as James tells us.

However, I am also "justified" (i.e. "declared righteous" before God...saved) apart from works; as Paul tells us in Romans 4:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 11:5-6..

 

[justbyfaith]

What about those who choose to stop clinging? That's what we're talking about here, isn't it?

My point is that those who are wanting and needing absolute assurance can have it...if they will cleave to the Lord in faith (Acts of the Apostles 11:23).

 

[justbyfaith]

@Heyzeus,

I think that maybe you are focusing on the judgment in particular.

It is true that we will be judged by our works.

However, salvation is regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost, which will produce the good works through which we will be judged worthy of the kingdom of heaven.

Because man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

Therefore God sees our invisible faith and our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life (or not) on the basis of our faith alone.

However, Jesus is both God and man; and the Father has committed all judgment to the Son. Therefore, as a Man, He is going to look on our outward appearance (our works) to determine whether or not our faith was genuine.

As God, He sees and knows whether or not we have genuine faith regardless of our works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1) we are not talking about salvation "ONLY" by works - it could be a mixture of both that is required .. with Both components A and B being required ...

So yes ... let us define our terms .. A = Faith Alone B = Works Alone C = mixture of both

" Not found in Scripture" ... One more time. The vast majority of Christianity and Christian Doctrine - claims otherwise

Of course you can find C Surely you are not challenging this claim. I will give you the benefit of the doubt as you may have been in a black vs white paradigm .. Faith vs Works.

Both C and B refute Sola Fide. and the Majority sits past C on the spectrum .. as in between C and B .. as in Not in between C and A .. because A is an Absolute .. it is a Zero there is no in between .. it is called a foolish doctrine by James - brother of Jesus. James 2 then giving a fine example of C

Bottom line - you can't take works out of the equation .. they are interconnected - as per the doctrine of Jesus/James.

This was always the way .. until Martin Luther came round - some 13 - 14 centuries later. Not suggesting provenance necessarily makes right but "Faith Alone" is simply not something Christianity had been about prior to that. Now the ideology is dying a slow death .. but Fundamentalists are hanging on tight.



Note to self - Works are not always a result of salvation - and if they are your argument is circular - and thus a fallacy .. in many ways. and so back to romper room we go.

Dude you lost track along time ago. That’s the ONLY thing I am talking about

sanctification is a different topic

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes but Jesus says you are saved by works -- who are you going to go with .. Paul or Jesus > ?

Last time. Please tell us where Jesus said we are saved by works

 

[justbyfaith]

Last time. Please tell us where Jesus said we are saved by works

I believe that he is pointing to the parable of the judgment of the sheep and the goats.

 

[justbyfaith]

A "mixture of faith and works" being salvational, is contrary to scripture (specifically, Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:1-3, Colossians 2:6)

 

[Heyzeus]

Last time. Please tell us where Jesus said we are saved by works

Matt 7:12 "in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

This is the "Will of God" Jesus is speaking of in Matt 7:

“21)Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"

and in case there was any confusion - it the doers and not the hearers that enter.
"24)Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand

 

[Heyzeus]

Dude you lost track along time ago. That’s the ONLY thing I am talking about

sanctification is a different topic

You were the one that thought "Works" meant "Going to Work" LOL .. lets settle down on the self aggrandization.

 

[Heyzeus]

@Heyzeus,

I think that maybe you are focusing on the judgment in particular.

It is true that we will be judged by our works..

Praise Jesus - the spark of the divine has finally broken through the clouds .. and kudo's for that.

However, salvation is regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost, which will produce the good works through which we will be judged worthy of the kingdom of heaven.

Because man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

Therefore God sees our invisible faith and our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life (or not) on the basis of our faith alone.

However, Jesus is both God and man; and the Father has committed all judgment to the Son. Therefore, as a Man, He is going to look on our outward appearance (our works) to determine whether or not our faith was genuine.

As God, He sees and knows whether or not we have genuine faith regardless of our works

How that mixture works is a question of many colors .. but it is a mixture - not "Sola Fide" .. Sorry .. and I am Lutheran .. so sorry to a whole lot of my family - who adhere to this doctrine .. and of course I never broach it directly with my Mother .. my Brother .. Yes.

Had Clergy in my Family Mate .. the real deal kind .. 8 years in the Seminary .. I been around the Sola fide block a couple of times.
Orthodox is my favorite these days - if I had to choose among the three major denominations ..

Let me know last time you been in a conversation with 2 Ministers - one a long time Family Friend - the other there with a number of others for a Church Business/ function - at a higher level - many drinks consumed - BBQ prime rib the fare .. wit all the fixin's . in the back yard .. having a high level conversation about the Trinity and having one of the Two agree with my perspective and the other not.

Sola fide is not a free pass round judgement - and Grace is a ridiculous concept intended to obfuscate an undefendable position.

Of course everything that happens in the universe is by God's grace .. including your salvation .. but what does that have to do with getting a free pass round Judgement time ? God didn't tell you that -- did he .. but that is what our good friend Marty is selling.

but perhaps we should credit Martin with some "inspiration" from God ... Holy Spirit came down on that boy .. made him write those things - and his other works such as his famous Treatise "On the Jews and Their Lies"

"In the treatise, he argues that Jewish synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes burned, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[2] afforded no legal protection,[3] and "these poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[4] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "We are at fault in not slaying them""

On the Jews and Their Lies - Wikipedia

Go's on to say how Hitler was "Inspired" by Martin's Gospels .. and would the Nazi's won the war that would definitely be part of then new Gospel...

God sure chooses some interesting conduit's for his message .. don't ya figure ? I don't .. I don't fancy God an irrational fellow.

 

[ChristisGod]

What about those who choose to stop clinging? That's what we're talking about here, isn't it?

those are the tares among the wheat, the goats mixed with the sheep that get separated at the Judgment hence all the warning passages because from our perspective we don't know the difference since they say Lord Lord we did all these things in your name and Jesus responds " depart from Me you workers of iniquity I never knew you"

They appear to be believers in the church but there has been ne real conversion. They have not been born again and received eternal life. Like judas they fall away and their true colors show in the end.

hope this helps !!!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Twirling around crying "All scripture is inspired" - does not make it so.
God using evil men to punish Israel - does not make it so
You claiming to now what God us up to these days -- does not make it so.

But- OK - let us assume your claim is true.

A) Children should be killed for the sins of their parents
B) Children should not be killed for the sins of their parents

Which is inspired -and which is not.

*Note - responding "Both are inspired" - makes a joke out of the term Inspired - and a joke out of the Bible - so to try to avoid such an answer.

The “ joke” is on you, both ARE inspired.....something happened that CHANGED EVERYTING —— the Cross ....
Go ahead and show your ignorance if you choose ......Wise Students Of The Word Know something else that you , in all your arrogant smugness do not know .....
Check this verse out , Blasphemy- Breath and go away.....”The Cross is Foolishness to those that perish”.....

Next stop for Mr.Heyzeus —-Hell. Enjoy!

 

[justbyfaith]

Matt 7:12 "in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

This is the "Will of God" Jesus is speaking of in Matt 7:

“21)Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"

and in case there was any confusion - it the doers and not the hearers that enter.
"24)Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand

No one can be a doer of the word unless they are first saved by grace...we cannot obey the Lord without the Holy Spirit first dwelling in us.

Every commandment that we find in the word, that tells us what the standard is to which we must measure up, is the law given as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25).

That no one can keep the law is evident from the following scriptures (and more): Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13.

Obedience to the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain, means that when the storms of life come, our faith will not fail...which does not change the fact that our salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, except through me (John 14:6).

Jesus said, Ye must be born again (John 3:7).

You must place your faith wholly in Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the Cross in order to be saved.

If you are trusting in your works to save you, then you are not placing your faith wholly in Christ.

If anyone is born again, they will most assuredly be filled with the love of God (Romans 5:5).

Such a love is indeed practical (1 John 3:17-18).

It remains that the way to be born again is through faith in Christ and His finished work on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Galatians 3:14).