The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[justbyfaith]

Christianity is - after 2000 years - still divided over this question - the majority against Sola Fide - and for good reason.

there is a reason the majority of Christianity rejects Sola Fide.

Indeed...and the reason is found in Matthew 7:13-14.

So then ..how can one argue that there is no Judgement ? But, that is what Sola Fide argues.

Sola Fide argues that there is no condemnation for them which are in Christ Jesus...as did our Lord in John 5:24 (kjv)...and as did Paul in Romans 8:1-a.

Well if you read the rest of the Sheep and Goats parable from Matt 25 above .. Jesus is Judging on the basis of works ..

Jesus is determining, by looking at their works, whether or not they are saved by grace through faith, and that not of themselves; is is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

It should be clear that we are regenerated and renewed, "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5)...but that, being regenerated and renewed, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) because of faith in Jesus (Galatians 3:14). And that this love is practical in nature (1 John 3:17-18) and so will result in works. But the love...and the works...do not save the man...rather, they are the result of the salvation that is given through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

He answers it in his most famous sermon .. Matt 5-7. Not all of the Faith crowd make it according to Jesus “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"

This is to say that in order to be saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourself; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast...you must receive Jesus Christ not only as Saviour but as Lord.

"Ye must be born again" (John 3:7) through faith in Jesus Christ....and included in a living faith is surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

*Perfect harmony*

 

[justbyfaith]

Why are you quoting Ephesians - when the topic is what Jesus said w/r to the issue ? Quote from Mark/Matt por favor

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles into all truth and bring to remembrance to them His teaching (John 16:13)...

So I believe that what is written in the epistles is valid as a source concerning where we will get our biblical doctrine according to what Jesus said.

Also, Peter validated Paul's writings in 2 Peter 3:15-16.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did you not realize that the majority of Christianity believes that works are included in the salvation formulation ? Help me to find the level at which your education should begin.

You said Jesus said works

I asked where

I pray this is not your answer.

What some people believe is not in question here

once again do tell where jesus said works

 

[Heyzeus]

Indeed...and the reason is found in Matthew 7:13-14.



Sola Fide argues that there is no condemnation for them which are in Christ Jesus...as did our Lord in John 5:24 (kjv)...and as did Paul in Romans 8:1-a.



Jesus is determining, by looking at their works, whether or not they are saved by grace through faith, and that not of themselves; is is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

It should be clear that we are regenerated and renewed, "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5)...but that, being regenerated and renewed, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) because of faith in Jesus (Galatians 3:14). And that this love is practical in nature (1 John 3:17-18) and so will result in works. But the love...and the works...do not save the man...rather, they are the result of the salvation that is given through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.



This is to say that in order to be saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourself; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast...you must receive Jesus Christ not only as Saviour but as Lord.

"Ye must be born again" (John 3:7) through faith in Jesus Christ....and included in a living faith is surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

*Perfect harmony*

was a really bad response .. not addressing the central question - nor giving anything other than reciting standard and refuted Sola Fide rhetoric.

Either you have to pass Judgement or you don't. You claim that you have to go through Judgement - but that you have a free pass . "there is no condemnation for them" as they pass through Judgement.

And good for you that you have this free pass .. be grateful. I don't have one - and you can't give me one , because you don't know what the heck you are talking about .. and all your mind wants to do is avoid the central problems inherent in the question by reciting Pauline scripture ..some of which was not written by Paul - as if you were not directed to Matt/Mark

Paul never met the man - this is what scripture tells us - was not a Christian till years after the death of our lord .. and why am I having to repeat this over over to every Sola Fide adherent ? What part of "What did Jesus say" -- in the Synoptic Gospels - did you not understand ?

And why are you so desperate to avoid the teachings of Jesus .. as if citing Paul somehow refutes the words of Jesus.

What is the "WILL OF THE FATHER" that Jesus is referring to ? Hint - Paul is not going to help you .. I want the answer that Jesus gives .. and if you don't know it .. perhaps you should give your head a shake.

 

[Heyzeus]

You said Jesus said works

I asked where

I pray this is not your answer.

What some people believe is not in question here

once again do tell where jesus said works

Of course it is not my answer .. just surprised by the question - as the majority of Christianity thinks its there somewhere.. but you can start with the Sermon on the mount Matt 5-7 .. and then read Post 296 for a more detailed discussion of the subject.

 

[justbyfaith]

as if you were not directed to Matt/Mark

As if, everything that can be known doctrinally in scripture is contained in Matthew and Mark.

Paul never met the man - this is what scripture tells us - was not a Christian till years after the death of our lord .. and why am I having to repeat this over over to every Sola Fide adherent ?

Paul did meet the Man...in Acts chapter 9...it has also been said that Paul was directly taught by Jesus for three years in the wilderness of Arabia...

And if he had not met the Man...still, Peter validates Paul's writings in 2 Peter 3:15-16, and Jesus validates Peter in John 16:13.

And why are you so desperate to avoid the teachings of Jesus .. as if citing Paul somehow refutes the words of Jesus.

I'm very happy with the teachings of Jesus and am confident that none of them are in contradiction to Paul's writings...for Jesus gave to Paul the gospel that he preached (Galatians 1:12)...and would not give to Paul anything to preach that is contrary to what He had already spoken.

What is the "WILL OF THE FATHER" that Jesus is referring to ? Hint - Paul is not going to help you .. I want the answer that Jesus gives .. and if you don't know it .. perhaps you should give your head a shake.

See John 6:39 for the answer to your question.

 

[justbyfaith]

Either you have to pass Judgement or you don't. You claim that you have to go through Judgement - but that you have a free pass . "there is no condemnation for them" as they pass through Judgement.

And good for you that you have this free pass .. be grateful. I don't have one - and you can't give me one , because you don't know what the heck you are talking about ..

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 5:24 (NLT), I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

If you will fulfill the condition of the promise above, you can have the promise.

I am giving you this free pass by showing you this scripture...but of course it is up to you as to whether you receive or reject it....so if you reject it, it is not given to you; which is not to say that the attempt to give it to you was never made.

 

[justbyfaith]

nor giving anything other than reciting standard and refuted Sola Fide rhetoric.

Not refuted here...give it your best shot...shouldn't be too hard for you if it is refuted elsewhere...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course it is not my answer .. just surprised by the question - as the majority of Christianity thinks its there somewhere.. but you can start with the Sermon on the mount Matt 5-7 .. and then read Post 296 for a more detailed discussion of the subject.

sermon on the mount does not say we must work to be saved

again I could care less what others think

you said Jesus said I want to see it in his words. Or will just consider you a dishonest person and will discontinue our conversation

 

[Heyzeus]

As if, everything that can be known doctrinally in scripture is contained in Matthew and Mark..

I am not interested in having a discussion about Paul other than a brief summary of Pauls thoughts on Judgement - which I have already given and commented on.

I realize you are desperate to avoid the teachings of Jesus in Matt/Mark - and nowhere have I claimed that this is all there is to scripture .. but the Topic here .. is "What did Jesus think" ...

Paul tells us almost nothing about the life of Jesus .. gives us no sayings of Jesus .. and so on.

Where we do find the teachings of "JESUS" - as opposed to the Teachings of Paul - is in Matt and Mark.

If you are not interested in what Jesus had to say on the issue .. that is fine .. please go somewhere else though .. because that is what I am interested in.

 

[Heyzeus]

Not refuted here...give it your best shot.

Says the fellow that refuses to consider the teachings of Jesus ..

OK - hmm .. I can't use Jesus .. how about his Brother .. James !! .. who calls the sola fide crowd "Foolish"

a terrible post .. cherry picking a phrase out of a post that has already answered your question.

 

[justbyfaith]

I realize you are desperate to avoid the teachings of Jesus in Matt/Mark - and nowhere have I claimed that this is all there is to scripture .. but the Topic here .. is "What did Jesus think" ...

I have no such desperation...by all means, bring up the teachings that you are thinking of.

Where we do find the teachings of "JESUS" - as opposed to the Teachings of Paul - is in Matt and Mark.

And Luke, and John. (also Revelation 2 and 3).

Also, Jesus gave Paul's teachings to him (Galatians 1:12)...so they are also the teachings of Jesus.

If you are not interested in what Jesus had to say on the issue .. that is fine .. please go somewhere else though .. because that is what I am interested in.

By all means, bring up what Jesus has to say on the issues...I am definitely interested.

However, you are not going to stop me from bringing to bear on the subject the teachings of Paul....for they also are included in holy scripture....and even if you do not accept them as holy scripture, the broader base of our audience will...and thus the teachings of Paul have the power to refute your positions. For it is not only you that I am wanting to reach with what I am preaching...if I fail to reach you, but reach 1,000 others, then I have done my job.

 

[Heyzeus]

sermon on the mount does not say we must work to be saved

again I could care less what others think

you said Jesus said I want to see it in his words. Or will just consider you a dishonest person and will discontinue our conversation

I think you need to upgrade your definition of works. See- good we started at the Sunday School level. Works does not mean "we must work" as in "have a Job" - works is just as much about not doing bad deeds.. as it is about doing good deeds.

The we are addressing is "works vs Faith" - is "Faith Alone" sufficient to get through the pearly gates .. or can you be a killer all your life and it matters not.

You can start with the Sermon on the Mount Matt 5-7. I will summarize as it is too long to post .. you should read this sometime .. good stuff.

This is from the summary at the end .. throughout this sermon Jesus talks about how to live one's life "works" bad things not to do .. and so on. Jesus then summarizes stating that only those that do the "Will of the Father" get through the gate .. the "Will of the Father" being what he has just described throughout the Sermon - where he gives many examples of works .. introduces the concept of severity of sin .. even sets a bit of a bar ... but this is the summary.

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

So you can attend church every Sunday and hear the teachings of Christ - say your Hail Mary's and Amen's and pray "Lord Lord" - but that will not get you through the gates .. "Faith Alone is Useless" - James 2.

You must put those words into practice says Jesus - with the Golden Rule being at the top of the food chain .. "Do unto others"

 

[justbyfaith]

Says the fellow that refuses to consider the teachings of Jesus ..

OK - hmm .. I can't use Jesus .. how about his Brother .. James !! .. who calls the sola fide crowd "Foolish"

a terrible post .. cherry picking a phrase out of a post that has already answered your question.

James had a simple message...that if you are truly saved by grace through faith, it is going to change your life.

We are not saved through the life change...salvation is the life change.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have no such desperation...by all means, bring up the teachings that you are thinking of.



And Luke, and John. (also Revelation 2 and 3).

Also, Jesus gave Paul's teachings to him (Galatians 1:12)...so they are also the teachings of Jesus.



By all means, bring up what Jesus has to say on the issues...I am definitely interested.

However, you are not going to stop me from bringing to bear on the subject the teachings of Paul....for they also are included in holy scripture....and even if you do not accept them as holy scripture, the broader base of our audience will...and thus the teachings of Paul have the power to refute your positions. For it is not only you that I am wanting to reach with what I am preaching...if I fail to reach you, but reach 1,000 others, then I have done my job.

I asked him too

Seems to love to accuse but then can’t back it up

 

[Heyzeus]

I have no such desperation...by all means, bring up the teachings that you are thinking of..

I did bring them up - you ignored them - and instead started quoting Paul. Go please... revel in Paul ..and forget all about the teachings of Jesus .. hide those one's in a box .. and don't open box without putting on your thickest rose colored glasses

 

[justbyfaith]

The we are addressing is "works vs Faith" - is "Faith Alone" sufficient to get through the pearly gates .. or can you be a killer all your life and it matters not.

Someone who is a killer all their life is not saved by grace through faith (unless their killing is a military duty)...

1Jo 3:14, We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:15, Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

 

[Heyzeus]

James had a simple message...that if you are truly saved by grace through faith, it is going to change your life.

We are not saved through the life change...salvation is the life change.

I know what James says .. he says the Faith alone crowd are Foolish. Hence why Martin Luther wanted the book removed from Canon

 

[justbyfaith]

I did bring them up - you ignored them - and instead started quoting Paul.

Sorry, I didn't see you do that, can you do it again?

I will also quote Paul again, if Paul is applicable.

That is not "ignoring the teachings of Jesus" that is applying the whole of scripture to what is being discussed....see 1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)

 

[justbyfaith]

I know what James says .. he says the Faith alone crowd are Foolish. Hence why Martin Luther wanted the book removed from Canon

Chapter and verse?