The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

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Heyzeus

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So, if someone does this, and blasphemes the HS according to your definition...and then comes to Jesus seeking forgiveness...will He in any wise cast them out (see John 6:37)?

Interesting question to which none of us knows the answer.

A similar question (and argument used by some against sola fide) would be this .. Suppose you have the killer we were discussing previously - who in his last breath says "forgive me Jesus - does he escape punishment ?
 

Heyzeus

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It is rejecting the testimony of the Holy Spirit as He attempts to convict you and draw you to Jesus...

No its not my friend .. you can reject Jesus - you can reject God - you can reject the teachings of Jesus.

What you can't do is blaspheme the holy spirit .. which is going around claiming the Spirit/Jesus/God said something it didn't .. aka - putting words in the mouth of God .. Twisting scripture in the name of God .. Going around claiming "God Says"

Such are very dangerous activities IMO.
 

Heyzeus

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Yep

I see two messages that speak of who are saved vs those who are not, they are descriptive verses not prescriptive verses

again, where is a passage that says if you want to get to heaven do works

where did Jesus say whoever believes and does works has eternal life, will live forever, never die, has rivers of living water flowing to eternal life?

The passage I just gave you says that. ??

1) To get into Heaven you must do the will of the Father - who is in Heaven
2) the will of the Father is what Jesus says the will of the Father is = works works - and more works.

If you do not think "The will of the Father" is what Jesus has preached about in this Sermon - the theme of which is how to get through the pearly gates .. then what the heck is the will of the Father ... and no .. you are not allowed to go outside of Matt for the answer - as the answer is in the Sermon Jesus has just given .

Why would someone ignore the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon he has just given about how to obtain eternal life - and cry "but Paul said this" ?
 

ChristisGod

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How about these verses:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).



And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).
And all of Gods children said , Amen !
 

Heyzeus

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The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is quite a simple matter. Blasphemy is defined in the Bible as assuming the prerogative of God. The special office of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. Therefore to take this work upon oneself is the unpardonable sin.

This is a sin against the Holy Spirit - not a sin against God - at least not directly. A sin against the Father can Be forgiven .. as with a sin against the son.

"Assuming the Perogative of God" and you kind of intimate this but are not very clear - is speaking for God .. claiming to speak the word of God .. claiming "this God's word" "This is God's law" - when it is not God's word .. nor God's law.

This is the only perogative of God that a human could possibly assume.

Jesus talks about the "Abomination of Desolation" - (the awful horror) - which is about when in Maccabees the King of Persia put religious statues/symbos in the synagogue.

This king - like many others - was Pontifex Maximus .. Not only the head of state but the head of the Church. "Divine Right" - his word was the word of God .. and could not be challenged .. the King was head of the State religious ... as well as the emissary between Man and God -"The Logos" ..

In other words ..what the King was saying to the Jews by converting the Synagogue into a place dedicated to the State Religion - such that the "Word of God" came from the King - this is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit .. the entity by which God's Holy Word is revealed.
 

Heyzeus

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If the rebuke wakes you up out of your unbelief, it is indeed charitable and has your well-being in mind.

You are the one suffering from "unbelief" my Friend ... running like a hare from the Gospels of Mark and Matt .. in to the comforting arms of Paul and John.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Suppose you have the killer we were discussing previously - who in his last breath says "forgive me Jesus - does he escape punishment ?
I would think it is God who decides when and where a person has his last chance to accept the gospel. We don't know if the person on their death bed has any chances left to accept the gospel. I bet that person does, though.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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where did Jesus say whoever believes and does works has eternal life, will live forever, never die, has rivers of living water flowing to eternal life?
Matthew 25:34-36,46
34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.

46And they (the cursed) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The trick here is not to ignore Jesus' teaching just because it seems to be teaching a works gospel but to reconcile it with Paul's teaching. Because I don't think the requirement for works here to be saved on the day of judgment means works are wages paid toward salvation. That would contradict Paul. So we owe it to ourselves to understand how works are required for salvation, but just not required to buy salvation. What works are not required for is justification. That happens entirely on the basis of one's faith. This is getting back to making the important distinction between justification and salvation.
 

BloodBought 1953

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The passage I just gave you says that. ??

1) To get into Heaven you must do the will of the Father - who is in Heaven
2) the will of the Father is what Jesus says the will of the Father is = works works - and more works.

If you do not think "The will of the Father" is what Jesus has preached about in this Sermon - the theme of which is how to get through the pearly gates .. then what the heck is the will of the Father ... and no .. you are not allowed to go outside of Matt for the answer - as the answer is in the Sermon Jesus has just given .

Why would someone ignore the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon he has just given about how to obtain eternal life - and cry "but Paul said this" ?

Jesus told His followers the Will Of The Father was to “ Believe in the One He sent”

The Sermon on the Mount was preached to show man the utter impossibility Of trying to merit one’s Salvation by any other means than Grace.....the Commandments were given to show you that you can not keep them— you need a Savior! The Sermon on the Mount was the Law Of Moses on Steroids!

Think you are “ good enough” to merit Heaven because you never committed Adultery? Jesus said if you even have a lustful thought , you are as guilty as an Adulterer .....once again....nobody can attain the Standards of the Law.....they are impossibly high.....you must have Grace.....you must turn to Jesus to save you....that was the point of the Law all along.....you , sir just don’t get it....
 

BarneyFife

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My “ standing” with God could not be better.....I REST in the Gospel Of Grace and I couldn’t go to hell if I wanted to.....don’t you just hate that?
What part of "I pray your behavior is not indicative of your standing with God" are you having trouble with, exactly." Unlike yourself, this is not a yuk-yuk joke for me.
 

BarneyFife

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This is a sin against the Holy Spirit - not a sin against God - at least not directly. A sin against the Father can Be forgiven .. as with a sin against the son.

"Assuming the Perogative of God" and you kind of intimate this but are not very clear - is speaking for God .. claiming to speak the word of God .. claiming "this God's word" "This is God's law" - when it is not God's word .. nor God's law.

This is the only perogative of God that a human could possibly assume.

Jesus talks about the "Abomination of Desolation" - (the awful horror) - which is about when in Maccabees the King of Persia put religious statues/symbos in the synagogue.

This king - like many others - was Pontifex Maximus .. Not only the head of state but the head of the Church. "Divine Right" - his word was the word of God .. and could not be challenged .. the King was head of the State religious ... as well as the emissary between Man and God -"The Logos" ..

In other words ..what the King was saying to the Jews by converting the Synagogue into a place dedicated to the State Religion - such that the "Word of God" came from the King - this is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit .. the entity by which God's Holy Word is revealed.
There is nothing ambiguous or unclear about my statement. You read your own presuppositions into it. If we try to decide for ourselves what the Holy Spirit is sent to teach and convict ourselves of, we blaspheme Him. No third party is involved.
 

justbyfaith

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Interesting question to which none of us knows the answer.

A similar question (and argument used by some against sola fide) would be this .. Suppose you have the killer we were discussing previously - who in his last breath says "forgive me Jesus - does he escape punishment ?

He does...for even Moses killed a man and was forgiven. Also, Jesus died literally in the place of Barabbas, who was an insurrectionist and murderer.

No its not my friend .. you can reject Jesus - you can reject God - you can reject the teachings of Jesus.

But if you do, you will not go to heaven, if you do so to your dying moment.

What you can't do is blaspheme the holy spirit .. which is going around claiming the Spirit/Jesus/God said something it didn't .. aka - putting words in the mouth of God .. Twisting scripture in the name of God .. Going around claiming "God Says"

Such are very dangerous activities IMO.

But not unforgiveable.

2) the will of the Father is what Jesus says the will of the Father is = works works - and more works.

Chapter and verse?

If you do not think "The will of the Father" is what Jesus has preached about in this Sermon - the theme of which is how to get through the pearly gates .. then what the heck is the will of the Father ... and no .. you are not allowed to go outside of Matt for the answer - as the answer is in the Sermon Jesus has just given .

Why am I not allowed to go outside of Matthew for the answer? Are other books not inspired in your opinion?

I will say John 6:29.

Why would someone ignore the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon he has just given about how to obtain eternal life - and cry "but Paul said this" ?

Because Paul's writings are also holy scripture (John 16:13, 2 Peter 3:15-16).

This is a sin against the Holy Spirit - not a sin against God -

The Holy Spirit is God (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4).

You are the one suffering from "unbelief" my Friend ... running like a hare from the Gospels of Mark and Matt .. in to the comforting arms of Paul and John.

I am not opposed to what is written in these gospels...you can bring up anything you want out of them.

But I am opposed to you saying that we are limited to these gospels in our answers to you...it is as if you are saying that Matthew and Mark are the only books truly inspired in holy scripture and that we cannot get our doctrine from any of the other books in the canon. If that is your position, then I deeply disagree with you...see 2 Timothy 3:16 for my reason.

Not according to Jesus .. but -- each to their own :)

Chapter and verse?

Matthew 25:34-36,46
34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.

46And they (the cursed) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The trick here is not to ignore Jesus' teaching just because it seems to be teaching a works gospel but to reconcile it with Paul's teaching. Because I don't think the requirement for works here to be saved on the day of judgment means works are wages paid toward salvation. That would contradict Paul. So we owe it to ourselves to understand how works are required for salvation, but just not required to buy salvation. What works are not required for is justification. That happens entirely on the basis of one's faith. This is getting back to making the important distinction between justification and salvation.

It should be clear that if anyone is saved by grace through faith, they are a new creature in Christ; the love of the Lord has been shed abroad in their hearts. As such, they will feed the homeless, visit those sick or in prison, and the other things mentioned in that scripture if given the opportunity.

But what if they receive Christ on their deathbed and never have the opportunity to do any of these works?

Are they going to heaven?

I believe that the answer is, that they are in fact going to heaven, per Romans 10:13.

But of course if anyone is saved by grace through faith, they are a new creature in Christ; and they also love Jesus. And therefore, knowing that Jesus is in fact the least of these His brethren, they will exhibit love towards Jesus if or when given the opportunity; because that love is in their hearts (per Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

It is not that doing the works spoken in the passage saves them. It is that the works spoken of in the passage show forth that they were genuinely saved when they called upon the name of the Lord for salvation.

For regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost does not happen because of any works that we might do. If I give $5 tot he poor, or even $5,000,000, that is not going to bring about the regeneration and renewal in my heart that the Lord would teach us can only happen in our hearts by faith in Him and in His finished work on the Cross. The works follow a regeneration that is genuine. But they do not bring about regeneration. I cannot obtain the love of the Lord by pretending to have it. Such a thing can only be obtained by faith.

"Ye must be born again." (John 3:7)
 

Heyzeus

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I would think it is God who decides when and where a person has his last chance to accept the gospel. We don't know if the person on their death bed has any chances left to accept the gospel. I bet that person does, though.

Of course it is God who decides ... this is a given - our mission .. should we choose to accept it is to figure out what this decision is based on !?

Some have suggested that a Free Pass through the pearly gates is possible .. Do not pass Go ..no need to go through judgement - a get into heaven free pass - known as "Sola Fide" - Faith Alone

I am of the belief that we all must go through judgement - and have our deeds weighed on the scales of justice ..

Does it not seem to you that this is what is happening in the scene depicted in Matt 25. And before one goes running to another part of the bible .. don't bother - because scenes like this are few and far between .. outside of Matt/Mark. but OK .. to the text.
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Clearly something is going on .. all nations (people) gathered before Jesus - Jesus is separating one from the other. How is this "NOT" judgment ... but OK .. perhaps we will find the part where one of these two groups get through the gates on the basis of the free pass .. "Faith Alone" - as the story continues.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

hmmm .. here are some folks who get through on "works" .. interesting .. lets go further and see if more information is given.

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

wow .. more details .. these people are called "righteous" on the basis of works.. but, they don't know what Jesus is talking about .. they don't know Jesus is what is being suggested .. and did not do these deeds in the name of Jesus - as will be seen later .. but .. even if one disagrees with this ... there was no Faith based motive for the action suggested .. never mind having a free pass .. specific belief that Jesus sacrificed himself for their sin... this is not mentioned .. inferred .. or implied and in fact has nothing to do with the rational Jesus gives for saving these people.

But the story is not done .. and will shed further light on the issue of "Judgement" .. note that the previous folks had to go through Judgement .. had no free pass ... they made it through on the basis of helping others .. "works" .. not that one should infer that these are the only works that qualify .. but .. certainly these one's did.

Perhaps the free pass group will be discussed later in the Story.

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Ouch .. bad luck for the group that did not do good works .. bad luck for the Sola Fide crowd who's good works do not balance the bad on the scales of Justice .. no free pass .. we all will be judged.
 

justbyfaith

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There is nothing ambiguous or unclear about my statement. You read your own presuppositions into it. If we try to decide for ourselves what the Holy Spirit is sent to teach and convict ourselves of, we blaspheme Him. No third party is involved.
That is preposterous.

You are implying that if I desire to search my own heart to determine what is my sin, that I am committing the unpardonable sin.

But such a thing can only produce good results. It is also exactly what the Dr. ordered.

For it is written,

Pro 20:27, The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Matthew 25:34-36,46
34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.

46And they (the cursed) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The trick here is not to ignore Jesus' teaching just because it seems to be teaching a works gospel but to reconcile it with Paul's teaching. Because I don't think the requirement for works here to be saved on the day of judgment means works are wages paid toward salvation. That would contradict Paul. So we owe it to ourselves to understand how works are required for salvation, but just not required to buy salvation. What works are not required for is justification. That happens entirely on the basis of one's faith. This is getting back to making the important distinction between justification and salvation.

again. A descriptive passage not prescriptive
 

justbyfaith

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Some have suggested that a Free Pass through the pearly gates is possible .. Do not pass Go ..no need to go through judgement - a get into heaven free pass - known as "Sola Fide" - Faith Alone

I am of the belief that we all must go through judgement - and have our deeds weighed on the scales of justice ..
See John 5:24 (kjv).

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
 

justbyfaith

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In 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, we find the doctrine about the bema seat of Christ....that those who are in Christ will not be judged unto condemnation but will rather be judged for their works as to what among the things that they did will stand the test of fire and endure through the fire to become a reward in the kingdom.
 

BarneyFife

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That is preposterous.

You are implying that if I desire to search my own heart to determine what is my sin, that I am committing the unpardonable sin.

But such a thing can only produce good results. It is also exactly what the Dr. ordered.

For it is written,

Pro 20:27, The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
If I search my own heart, refusing the ministry of the Holy Spirit, I will approve of the evil I find. It's almost like you're trying to misrepresent me. You're pretty close to going on my ignore list with your assuming the worst and jumping to conclusions. (By the way, I don't yet have anyone ignored)