Hell Fire
- Thread starter kcnalp
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But post-resurrection I think that there will be a division amongst the lost and saved, and the lost will abide eternally in hell, as we know it to be, a place of self-inflicted torment.
Do you not believe in either eternal salvation, or eternal perdition? Eternal perdition is where I believe hell to be.
That's silly reasoning.
There is not one plausible logistic in that entire allegory.
There will be absolutely no visual or oral communication between the two groups.
One group will not be so daft as to ask that one from the other group, stretch their arm to offer an iota of water in order to alleviate their torment. (it's physically impossible).
No amount of water will ever vanquish their torment, it's a spiritual affliction.
No one will ever ask the saved to go back to earth for any purpose (completely unheard of)
There is no such thing Abraham's bossom, nor will one of the lost recognize Abraham.
Jesus depicted this scenario in such an illogical manner, just so that no one could possibly confuse it for an exact representation of either, hell, interim period, or the current state of the physically dead. No one is conscious right now who has physically died, they are all resting dormant in the grave waiting for Judgement Day.
I believe in eternal salvation. However, the Bible is pretty clear that the dead are dead. I don't believe they will be tormented forever. The whole concept of Hades being the realm of the living dead is a Greek philosophical one, not a Biblical one. As more and more Gentiles, primarily with Greek influence, became Christians this concept came with them. When they saw Hades in the Bible what would come to mind? Their belief that Hades is the realm of the living dead. However, this is not how the Scripture use the word. In Scripture the word Hades is the grave.
Through the centuries this concept has taken root. Fast forward to today and our English translations, the Greek word aion is often translated as forever. It's my contention that this is wrong. If people have this idea of Hades as a place of eternal burning and they see the word aion related to it they conclude that aion means forever. However, this is wrong because Jesus stated plainly that the aion will end and that another will come. If the aion will end it cannot mean forever. The vast majority of passages people use to argue for eternal torment contain this word aion and it is translated forever or something similar. It's my contention that if we set aside these passages that contain aion, there is virtually nothing in Scripture to support this claim of eternal torment.
So, essentially, the entire doctrine rests on the definition of one word, which I believe is wrongly translated.
First off, it's not a parable. It uses real life people.
Why do I assume they were alive? They were conversing. lol
Yes, it uses real life people because Jesus is addressing real people. Remember Jesus said that the Jews would see people coming from the east and west and sitting with Abraham. Jesus was addressing the Pharisees with this parable. The reason he mentions Abraham's bosom is because the Jews, as the people of God, expected that they, through birth, would be sitting with Abraham. However, in the parable, the Rich Man, the Jew, is not sitting with Abraham, he's tormented and someone else is in Abraham's embrace, Abraham's bosom. I don't have time at the moment to get into depth on this. I should later.
They were conversing, yes. Have you ever witnessed a dead person conversing? If not then why would you think they did here?
You asked me: " I would ask you though, why do you assume they are alive when the text states that they died?". I answered: "Why do I assume they were alive? They were conversing."
Show us a parable that uses real people. Luke 16 is not a parable.
I think that it is the Eternal Lake of Fire, and Jesus' continuous usage of the phrase 'eternal punishment' that compels most exegetes to accept the doctrine of eternal condemnation. I think that you created a false predicate by asserting that it is the word aion, that most have derived the principle of hell from. Hades and Sheol, to me, are the grave, the place where the physically dead await for Judgement Day. They are asleep and not animated, dormant. It is ghenna that denotes hell, which is the realm of eternal punishment (mental and self-inflicted, no flames),
Yes, you should be concerned, ...your exegeis is so bad, that one would question your salvation, ...let alone your understanding of hell - of which you judge others so profusely.
Rudometkin
Active Member
You continuously claim others to be unsaved, or threatening them with hell fire. I shouldn't have to bring this to your attention.
No, hell is terrible per Jesus....
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Don't die lost.
Is this an allegory of Jesus, too???...
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
...if so, what else did Jesus poorly convey to those listening?
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
...if so, what else was Jesus poorly conveying to those listening here?
teamventure
Well-Known Member
- Sep 6, 2011
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We have a failure of understanding the concept of a second death because we currently exist in another realm.
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