The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God does not use the barometric of our works to determine whether or not we have faith in Him.
Well he's not using our works to see if we've earned our way into the kingdom. Our works show our faith. And he will in fact use our works to determine if we get to go into the kingdom or not. Look at what James says......

James 2:18
I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Deeds show faith. Deeds don't earn anything, they show your faith.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well he's not using our works to see if we've earned our way into the kingdom. Our works show our faith. And he will in fact use our works to determine if we get to go into the kingdom or not. Look at what James says......

James 2:18
I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Deeds show faith. Deeds don't earn anything, they show your faith.
Before man (Romans 4:2, 1 Samuel 16:7).
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
...who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Is not an "IF"...
it "IS" what they have been "MADE".
That's why a person must be justified by their works too. If a person really is saved their works will show that. If their works don't show that they aren't really saved. Unsaved people can't walk after a Spirit they don't have. Saved people can, and do.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's why a person must be justified by their works too. If a person really is saved their works will show that. If their works don't show that they aren't really saved. Unsaved people can't walk after a Spirit they don't have. Saved people can, and do.
A person can bear the fruit of the Spirit without necessarily doing good works.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In Matthew 25, it does not qualify as true across the board that if someone does not have works, he will not be saved.

There is the issue of the deathbed conversion; wherein the person calls on the name of the Lord one minute before they pass into the next life (and thus shall be saved on their day of judgment); yet they had no works to show for their faith!
Don't use the 1 in 50,000,000 example of the thief on the cross to change the Bible that tells us in Matthew 25:31-46 that Jesus will look at our works to determine if we go to the kingdom or into the fire. The thief on the cross doesn't change the way Jesus will judge the billions of us people who lived our whole lives with moving arms and legs. God is not a legalist, for as I said, it's about the fruit of the Spirit anyway. You don't have to always move your arms and legs to walk in the Spirit. Sometimes just keeping your mouth shut is a righteous work of the Spirit.
 
Last edited:

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you think that if someone who is "the least of these His brethren" asks someone for a cup of coffee, and that someone is embarrassed because they think that coffee is sinful at the time (and also it is at a church service), and goes to get them a cup and then after a moment pours it out into the bathroom sink, and does not give that person ("the least of these") the cup of coffee, that because they did not do the good work of giving that person a cup of coffee, they are condemned eternally?

What if that same someone has called upon the name of the Lord and has obtained the promise thereby that they shall be saved?

This was me...

Just wanted to know what your judgment might be concerning me as to my failure to be able to give to Jesus something to drink.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ferris Bueller

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A person can bear the fruit of the Spirit without necessarily doing good works.
Walking by the Spirit is what good works are. Some of the works of the law are what you do in your heart, or are what you don't do with your body.

Leviticus 19:15-18
15You must not pervert justice; you must not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the rich; you are to judge your neighbor fairly.
17You must not harbor hatred against your brother in your heart.
18Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against any of your people

These are all works of righteousness. And works by which we will be judged as being saved or not when Jesus comes back. And works that put the argument about the thief on the cross to rest.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you think that if someone who is "the least of these His brethren" asks someone for a cup of coffee, and that someone is embarrassed because they think that coffee is sinful at the time (and also it is at a church service), and goes to get them a cup and then after a moment pours it out into the bathroom sink, and does not give that person ("the least of these") the cup of coffee, that because they did not do the good work of giving that person a cup of coffee, they are condemned eternally?

What if that same someone has called upon the name of the Lord and has obtained the promise thereby that they shall be saved?

This was me...

Just wanted to know what your judgment might be concerning me as to my failure to be able to give to Jesus something to drink.
You would have been sinning if you had given it to them. You did a righteous thing by not giving them what you considered in your heart to be a sinful thing (Romans 14:14). Besides, this isn't about being perfect all the time. This is about being characterized more and more as a person who pursues and walks in the things of the Spirit.

2 Peter 1
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

So I see it about making progress in the Spirit, not about perfection. Just getting closer and closer to perfection. Unsaved unbelievers aren't growing in the things of the Spirit. They are the ones that will have no good works by which to be judged as having faith in Jesus and having love for Jesus. But imperfect but growing Christians will.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let's put this argument to rest right now.

Romans 4:2
2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.

Paul is saying works don't make you righteous before God. He's not saying works don't make you righteous before God but they do make you righteous before man. So this isn't about being justified before God vs. being justified before men. James is using the word justified as in being shown to be righteous. James uses Abraham as one of the examples of how works justify us, those works showing us to be righteous. He's referring to Genesis 22:12. Abraham had already been made righteous (justified) by his faith way back in Genesis 15:6 (Paul's argument). But here in Genesis 22:12 he is being shown to be righteous (justified) by what he does, and not to man but to the Lord!

Genesis 22
12“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.b
15And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time, 16saying, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your only son, 17I will surely bless you......

James 2:21
21Was not our father Abraham justified (revealed to have faith, before God) by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

And that's how it will be for us. At the judgment God will see our righteousness in what we have done in this life and we will enter into the kingdom. Those in whom he does not see the righteous works of faith he will cast out to the left into the lake of fire. He says he's going to do it this way even though he can see into the heart and already knows who is righteous and who is not.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They have no gold, silver, or precious gems to show for their faith; and they shall be saved: yet so as by fire.
If the gold, silver and precious gems in 1 Corinthians 3:8-17 was our personal obedient works of holy living, and that we didn't have to have those works, just dead faith, to be saved when Jesus comes back that would contradict what Jesus said that people who don't have personal obedient works of holy living will not be saved. All you have to do is look at the context of 1 Corinthians 3:8-17 and you can see that the work that the saved person can not have and still be saved is the work of planting and watering and building the field and temple of God's people. You can be a complete failure at leading people to faith in Christ and making them ready for the judgment and having your work burn up in the judgment, while you yourself will be saved. But you can't have no works of personal holiness and be saved because that's the sign of an unsaved person. True believers are getting more and more holy in the way they live and they will have works to show for their faith when Jesus comes back. Unbelievers will not.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,586
12,992
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's why a person must be justified by their works too.

Already clarified that.

If a person really is saved their works will show that. If their works don't show that they aren't really saved. Unsaved people can't walk after a Spirit they don't have. Saved people can, and do.

A couple of things you seem to mix.

• A man submitting in HEARTFUL Belief TO the Lord God...
Is the requirement-
Is the Justification, BY Lord, to SAVE that man's soul.

• Works is a completely separate issue.
• Because There is NO Works a man can do through Christ, "TO" Glorify God", UNTIL his soul IS "restored" (Saved).

• Men CANNOT SEE the thoughts of a man's Heart. Only the individual man AND God KNOW the thoughts IN a man's HEART.

• Anyone can CLAIM to be Saved.

• men ONLY can KNOW another's Hearts Thoughts...."BY" the man's "WORKS".
Those are "Indications". ^

• However Again, only the man AND God "KNOWS" the thoughts IN a man's Heart.

Certainly, it is GOD (not men), who JUSTIFIES, what WORKS will be "Rewarded" and what WORKS will be "Burned".

Men observe..."BY" a man's WORKS...and men LOVE to Judge others.

The World IS full of Side-Line "judges", even on this Forum.

Trump is repeatedly Judged...
• Cheating on his wife-
Yep, that happened...
But the People complaining, were Not married to Trump. And the Forgiveness TO Trump was Resolved between his wife and Trump.
• Law suits against a Trump Company-
Yep, those happen...
Since people Have a legal recourse to "settle disputes" with any company.
A "settled dispute", IS each party, "giving" and "accepting", the forgiveness of debt.

Just saying... God is all knowing....and Just.
He "Knows" a man's Heart.
Whereas men, THINK, they are "entitled", to Endlessly JUDGE others, without consideration,
IF "the other", has already been "forgiven"...

But yet these same, "same-sideline judges",
Think "their" own "forgiven wrongs"... have "merit"...while having "zero" consideration of others "forgiven wrongs".
^ hypocrites ^

ORDER and WAY is Gods WAY.
"a soul", restored, "IS Saved" unto God.
"a works," Glorifying to God, "IS Rewarded" by God.

Two different things.
Receiving of Two different things.

You appear to be trying to make those Two things ONE thing.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Already clarified that.



A couple of things you seem to mix.

• A man submitting in HEARTFUL Belief TO the Lord God...
Is the requirement-
Is the Justification, BY Lord, to SAVE that man's soul.

• Works is a completely separate issue.
• Because There is NO Works a man can do through Christ, "TO" Glorify God", UNTIL his soul IS "restored" (Saved).

• Men CANNOT SEE the thoughts of a man's Heart. Only the individual man AND God KNOW the thoughts IN a man's HEART.

• Anyone can CLAIM to be Saved.

• men ONLY can KNOW another's Hearts Thoughts...."BY" the man's "WORKS".
Those are "Indications". ^

• However Again, only the man AND God "KNOWS" the thoughts IN a man's Heart.

Certainly, it is GOD (not men), who JUSTIFIES, what WORKS will be "Rewarded" and what WORKS will be "Burned".

Men observe..."BY" a man's WORKS...and men LOVE to Judge others.

The World IS full of Side-Line "judges", even on this Forum.

Trump is repeatedly Judged...
• Cheating on his wife-
Yep, that happened...
But the People complaining, were Not married to Trump. And the Forgiveness TO Trump was Resolved between his wife and Trump.
• Law suits against a Trump Company-
Yep, those happen...
Since people Have a legal recourse to "settle disputes" with any company.
A "settled dispute", IS each party, "giving" and "accepting", the forgiveness of debt.

Just saying... God is all knowing....and Just.
He "Knows" a man's Heart.
Whereas men, THINK, they are "entitled", to Endlessly JUDGE others, without consideration,
IF "the other", has already been "forgiven"...

But yet these same, "same-sideline judges",
Think "their" own "forgiven wrongs"... have "merit"...while having "zero" consideration of others "forgiven wrongs".
^ hypocrites ^

ORDER and WAY is Gods WAY.
"a soul", restored, "IS Saved" unto God.
"a works," Glorifying to God, "IS Rewarded" by God.

Two different things.
Receiving of Two different things.

You appear to be trying to make those Two things ONE thing.

Glory to God,
Taken
14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

You say yes. James says no.
No offense, but I'm going with what James says.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,586
12,992
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let's put this argument to rest right now.

Romans 4:2
2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.

God "JUSTIFIES", What He Will give a man.

God justifies...
Faith, Blessings, Gifts, Comfort, etc. THAT God Gives TO men.

Of course God "justifies" men according to what men DO.

scripture is Clear...
"What" God will JUSTIFY a man to Receive... "For" Specifically what a man DOES!

CONFESS Heartful Belief in God and Christ Jesus...
And God Justifies a man's soul will "be Saved."

DO Works that Glorify God...
And God Justifies that man Will "receive rewards."

Works is NOT a Justification to "Receive Salvation".

Salvation IS NOT a REWARD!
Salvation IS A GIFT!

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,586
12,992
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds ? Can such faith save him ?

You say yes. James says no.
No offense, but I'm going with what James says.

What you quoted, is Asking a question.

You gave me your answer to the question...
But neglected to give James answer to the Question.
Please give James Answer that you say you Agree with.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think that the scriptures in Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 11:5-6, and Ephesians 2:8-9, are reconciled with James in that regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5) is something that makes you inclined towards doing good works.

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)).

The love of the Lord shed abroad in a person's heart (Romans 5:5) because of faith (Galatians 3:14) is a practical love (1 John 3:17-18).

Now, salvation does not come through the works that I do because I have a practical love.

Rather, the practical love that I have in my heart is a major aspect of the salvation that is given to me.

salvation, to a certain extent = practical love in my heart.

So, faith alone produces salvation, even that practical love; and works stem out of that salvation, or practical love.

But the works are the result of salvation and so cannot be the catalyst for it.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Works is NOT a Justification to "Receive Salvation".
Justified is defined as making one righteous, and it is also defined as showing one to be righteous. Faith makes you righteous. That's what Paul is talking about. Works show you are righteous. That's what James is talking about. You have to be justified in both these ways, faith and works, to be saved from going to the lake of fire when Jesus comes back. Because people who have been made righteous by faith are new people who do new things. People who have not been made righteous by faith are not new people and they continue to do the same old sinful things they've always been doing. That's why Jesus is able to judge us in Matthew 25:31-46 by what we do as to whether we love and trust him, or don't love and trust him.
 
Last edited:

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What you quoted, is Asking a question.

You gave me your answer to the question...
But neglected to give James answer to the Question.
Please give James Answer that you say you Agree with.
I did give James' answer.

20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?
 
Last edited:

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think that the scriptures in Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 11:5-6, and Ephesians 2:8-9, are reconciled with James in that regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5) is something that makes you inclined towards doing good works.

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)).

The love of the Lord shed abroad in a person's heart (Romans 5:5) because of faith (Galatians 3:14) is a practical love (1 John 3:17-18).
And that's why people who do not have works will not be saved when Jesus comes back. They show by their lives that they do not have faith in God and that they are still the old creation they have always been. That is why a person must be justified by both faith and works to be saved.