Not faith alone?

[BloodBought 1953]

Your problem is you think the phrase 'you have to have works to be saved' can ONLY mean 'works earn salvation'. You are literally incapable of seeing that having to have works in order to be saved from the lake of fire does not have to mean those works earn salvation. Even when it's explained to you, you still can't see it.

I see and know EXACTLY what you are talking about ..... you are confusing what a Believer “ should” do with what a Believer “ MUST “ do.....
I agree with you to an extent .....the Works Should crime and in most cases , they WiLL come .... it’s simply the outcome of being a “ New Creation” with a “ New Heart” .It is the RESULT of Salvation which is a GIFT.If any Works we’re required to GET Salvation or to KEEP Salvation or PROVE Salvation, it would not be a gift
Paul tells us that when we stand before God , He is going to Judge us according to his Gospel .That Gospel proclaims That if you Believed that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the Grave you are going to be Saved. THAT plus Nothing.Trembling people are likely to lie about that to God. He dies not need to see any evidence of “ works” to determine their fate , as if that’s the only way God can tell the liars from the Truth-Tellers . God sees The Heart and He wants to see a New One.ALL of those that RESTED in the Gospel have it. God knows who is His.....and of course He knows the Answer to His question before He even asks it.....he does not need to look for visible works.Works will come into play for the Faith- Saved Believer when Crowns or Rewards are passed out......

What you Believed will be the Criteria for Salvation —— not what you did. When you repent from being a non- Believer in the gospel to being a Believer in the Gospel , One will see that what he put His Trust in was what God did for man—- NOT what man did for God ....

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Nobody is “ adding” to God's Word here..

Well, sir.

The scripture in question says:

John 8:11 KJV
[11] ...And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

You add the red text below into the scripture while deleting “sin”:

John 8:11 KJV
[11] ...And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and commit adultery no more.

What is adding and deleting to/from scripture if this is not so?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Everybody Sins....everybody at Times Sins “ willfully”.....

Not according to the truth of the word:

Psalm 119:2-3
[2] Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart. [3] They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

1 John 3:9
[9] Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin... and he cannot sin

My advice to you (and anyone else reading); do not tamper with these scriptures; but fear and tremble at them:

Isaiah 66:2
[2]... but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembles at my word.

 

[justbyfaith]

Nope....Everybody Sins....

Nope...the one who is born of God "doth not" and "cannot" commit sin (1 John 3:9).

And the one who abideth in Christ "sinneth not" (1 John 3:6) for ever (1 John 2:17).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

.. you are confusing what a Believer “ should” do with what a Believer “ MUST “ do.....

No I'm not. Paul said, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." He didn't say 'should'. He said 'must'. So much for your theology.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

He dies not need to see any evidence of “ works” to determine their fate

You are right that God does not need to see our works to determine whether we go to left and into the fire or to the right and into the kingdom, but He will do that anyway. He said, "Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’".

So much for your theology that our works won't be used to decide which way we go. You're wondering right now how that can be since salvation is not earned by works, right? It's because born again people are the one's who have the works that prove they are born again. While those that aren't born again don't have them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus works on the “ inside of the cup” ,and pays no heed to the outside Of said cup—

I showed you that Jesus said, "You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." So he does care about the outside of the cup, contrary to what you claim. The making of the inside of the cup clean first that Jesus is talking about is getting born again (I would post the scriptures but you say you don't read them).

If you're still needing to clean the inside of the cup to make the outside clean you aren't born again yet. Or you don't realize that you already have what you need inside of you to make the outside clean. But you say you do know that. So why aren't you clean on the outside? And don't play the 'perfection' card. We all know this isn't about being perfectly sinless right off the bat. When you get born again "the Spirit of the LORD will rush upon you...and you will be transformed into a different person" 1 Samuel 10:6. I don't know how purposely living in your old sins is somehow being transformed into a different person. I can see how a struggle with your old sins is being transformed into a different person. But purposely doing your old sins—that's not a transformation by the Spirit of God in a born again experience. Whoever's teaching you this crap is lying to you and a lot of other people.

 

[Illuminator]

You are right that God does not need to see our works to determine whether we go to left and into the fire or to the right and into the kingdom, but He will do that anyway. He said, "Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’".

So much for your theology that our works won't be used to decide which way we go. You're wondering right now how that can be since salvation is not earned by works, right? It's because born again people are the one's who have the works that prove they are born again. While those that aren't born again don't have them.

I wholeheartedly agree. Being born again does not require proof of works, because faith and good works are never separated in Scripture. They are two wings of the same bird. Liars like James McCarthy produces books and videos saying Catholicism teaches a works righteousness, deceiving millions of good Christians. He knows better but lies about it anyway. here's proof.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I wholeheartedly agree. Being born again does not require proof of works, because faith and good works are never separated in Scripture. They are two wings of the same bird. Liars like James McCarthy produces books and videos saying Catholicism teaches a works righteousness, deceiving millions of good Christians. He knows better but lies about it anyway. here's proof.

I'm not Catholic, and I'm not going to lie to you, I don't like the Catholic religion. But I don't like Protestantism either, lol. But anyway after talking to Catholics I see they don't think good works literally pay for and earn a pass into the kingdom. They understand that works are the manifestation of the faith that saves. And that this manifestation is required to be saved for that very reason—they are the expression of your faith in Christ. For Paul himself said the faith that justifies is the faith that "expresses itself through love." Am I close?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

God's grace is not greasy. That's why the greasy grace teaching is not representative of God's grace.

If you don’t think God's Grace is “ greasy”—- why did you CALL it that?
Please enlighten us about the differences between your TWO TYPES of Grace...Thanking you in advance....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you don’t think God's Grace is “ greasy”—- why did you CALL it that?

I was talking about the corruption of God's grace being taught in the church. People call it greasy grace and some other names too.

Please enlighten us about the differences between your TWO TYPES of Grace...Thanking you in advance....

God's grace—God's grace is not a license to sin.

Greasy grace—God's grace is a license to sin.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How do you know how I was using that phrase? To one party it means falling away from actually being saved. To the other party it means falling away from the institution of faith. Like I say, it doesn't matter which you believe. You're damned to hell either way. So what's the point of arguing who is right?

Because the bible specifically tells us that gid will keep His children from falling away!

We may stumble we may trip and slip, but we cannot undo what god has done to make us His children. This is important because to believe one can lose their salvation cripples that believer because of false doctrine. It says that Jesus death and Resurrection and trusting in that is not enough and that we have to work to "maintain" our salvation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is what is written (let the reader decide for himself!):

Eze 33:11, Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13, When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14, Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15, If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16, None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17, Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Eze 33:18, When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19, But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Eze 33:20, Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

PS what is your definition of someone who is wicked?

Well it is not my definition but the definition of the Bible and the Israelis.

It is an unbeliever! Just like when the Pharisees said Jesus sat with sinners- they meant unbelievers. (whores, tax collectors, drunks etc)

 

[justbyfaith]

(I would post the scriptures but you say you don't read them).

Post them anyway....others will read them.

See 2 Corinthians 9:6, Luke 8:11, Ecclesiastes 11:6.

Because the bible specifically tells us that God <fify> will keep His children from falling away!

We may stumble we may trip and slip, but we cannot undo what God <fify> has done to make us His children.

Well it is not my definition but the definition of the Bible and the Israelis.

It is an unbeliever! Just like when the Pharisees said Jesus sat with sinners- they meant unbelievers. (whores, tax collectors, drunks etc)

I would say that if your definition is correct, every unbeliever is a worker of iniquity and every worker of iniquity is an unbeliever (see Matthew 7:23, Matthew 13:41-42).

 

[Illuminator]

I'm not Catholic, and I'm not going to lie to you, I don't like the Catholic religion. But I don't like Protestantism either, lol. But anyway after talking to Catholics I see they don't think good works literally pay for and earn a pass into the kingdom. They understand that works are the manifestation of the faith that saves. And that this manifestation is required to be saved for that very reason—they are the expression of your faith in Christ. For Paul himself said the faith that justifies is the faith that "expresses itself through love." Am I close?

You're right on. After the Protestant Revolt, and before the Council of Trent, there were two types of "faith alone". Antinomianism divided Protestantism into 2 bitterly opposing camps, asserting a perverse type of faith that excluded hope and love. There is nothing wrong with "faith alone" if the other 2 cardinal virtues, hope and love, are included in the definition of "faith". (as Paul does in 1 Corinthians) Trent condemned the former, not the latter, and even today, Trent is universally taken out of context by misguided Protestants.

Not many evangelical Protestants think we are justified by mere intellectual ascent in the first place; for the reason that faith is never alone.

 

[Illuminator]

Question:
Why does the Roman Catholic Church teach the doctrine of "works righteousness," that through good works one can earn salvation?
Answer:
The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God’s grace–completely unmerited by works–that one is saved.

The Church teaches that it’s God’s grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, “God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.”

Notice that Paul’s words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.
READ MORE HERE

 

[justbyfaith]

Question:
Why does the Roman Catholic Church teach the doctrine of "works righteousness," that through good works one can earn salvation?
Answer:
The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God’s grace–completely unmerited by works–that one is saved.

The Church teaches that it’s God’s grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, “God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.”

Notice that Paul’s words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.
READ MORE HERE

Apparently the reformation happened for no reason at all...

Unless the Catholic Church has changed its stance and has thus admitted that Protestant views on the concept of faith alone are indeed accurate and that they were wrong concerning this doctrine; and that therefore their change over into promoting the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith apart from works is indeed an admission of error on the part of the Catholic Church.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Speak for yourself. Because I don't purposely sin. There's always some kind of struggle going on when I sin.


The question is, do you PURPOSELY take advantage of God's grace? Have you created a lifestyle of purposely taking advantage of God's grace as if it's your license to purposely indulge sin? The truth is, you can't do that. You just think you can. God does not allow it. You're deceived if you think you're protected by God's grace when you use it to purposely live in sin. You're not getting away with anything by God's grace. You just think you are. What you are doing is storing up wrath for yourself for the day of God's wrath.

Do you even bother to “ read” my posts. Let me try to break it down one more time.Sin?Bad. Obedience? Good. When I sin, it makes me miserable .Its like sticking my hand in a fire .Why would I want to that ? There are times that I am weak....there are times when I am Foolish....I sin, and I know I am Sinning —— just like you..I know it and admit it and depend on God's Grace to get me through

I know it drives Legalists batty, But The FACT is , “ Where Sin abounds,Grace abounds that much more”. Of course , if one is under the delusion that they have “ conquered” sin , they don’t want to hear about the Grace that ALL Believers need ...

If I were drowning and somebody threw me a life preserver, would you think that I was “ taking advantage” of it If I reached out for it . I doubt it . I have no desire to sin— it hurts me and it hurts others.....but I do Sin and so do you
I have not built a Lifestyle based upon Sinning ( I hate it ) and then using God’s Grace as License to “ get away with it”.......I need forgiveness and mercy and I “ know “ it and I take God’s REMEDY — GRACE...There will come a Day when you stand before God and it will finally hit you —- HIS PERFECTION and MAJESTY and “ your UTTER WRETCHEDNESS “ by comparison .You will be grasping for that “ Greasy Grace” that you fail to understand .....nor appreciate
I do not relish the situations in my life that cry out for Grace.....but I sure thank my Lord that it is there—— simply for the asking.....simply for the taking
Jesus Shed His Precious Blood so that we could have this Grace.....what a shame to see people dismiss it so cavalierly ....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Yep! It was willful, deliberate sin. And notice that the passage tells us he couldn't continue to do that and be saved when Jesus comes back. It was necessary that he stop in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. How did you miss that part?

I missed it because it ain’t there.....show me where it says “ he couldn’t be Saved”

 

[BloodBought 1953]

No I'm not. Paul said, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." He didn't say 'should'. He said 'must'. So much for your theology.

He also DIDN’T say , “ MUST turn away or wind up in Hell” .......It could have been meant this way.....”You MUST turn from Wickedness or face the Discipline Of The Church..... You will be kicked out of the Assembly Of your Brethern and thereby by Handed Over to Satan—- Chastised Severely here on Earth Temporarily so that God will not have to Punish you Eternally with UNbelievers—- Believers in the Gospel get Saved —- it’s a Promise Of God...