OSAS Deniers can “ Sin and Get Away With It Too! Here’s How!

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Paul Christensen

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We need to be very careful about doing witch hunts to root out the appearance of sinful habit patterns. Genuine believers, especially those new to the faith may be harmed and even driven away from a church because of judgmental people putting pressure on them to conform to their perceived standard of holy living. There are always busybodies in our churches who make it their "mission" to "correct" those with "faults and failings".

I would never confess my faults and shortcomings to anyone who rails on about "Willful sin with cause you to lose your salvation", because I would have no confidence that they would pray with me to engage the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit that I may be healed of it. Notice that James speaks of being "healed" of a fault through supportive prayer with the brethren, not "corrected" or "sorted out". James has a much more gracious response to faults and failings, and equates it with the elders of the church praying with a sick person, as if James sees a person with faults and failings as someone with needs the same type of prayer as for a sickness. This is so different from the judgmental approach to sin that so many in our churches, and on this forum seem to have.
 

justbyfaith

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Perhaps I am of a different kind of breed.

I do believe that "willful sins" will make a person lost;

And yet I have stood outside with people who needed to smoke a cigarette while church was going on.

Because I understand that grace, when properly executed, will bring deliverance from sin rather than making a man more licentious; as when it is taught as being a license for sin.

You tolerate that person's sinful patterns and behaviours in the hope that something that you say will get through to them and they will repent unto true salvation.

Being gentle in this is important.

Sometimes putting aside your theology in order to reach the person may indeed be necessary.

Standing outside with a smoker may not be the preaching ministry in which you are hitting them over the head with the Bible; but it is often more effective in that it should be clear that that person already knows that he is sinning by smoking that cigarette. What he needs is the understanding that he is accepted by you and that therefore the One whom you represent may also accept him, though he feels condemned by his behaviour, from the One whom you represent.

It may even be that he stands condemned (for the Holy Spirit convicts of judgment) and that this is the reason why he feels condemned.

However, if he feels accepted by you, he will be coming back to church and it is at church that he may finally get the message that will change his life.
 

TheslightestID

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I think this little Pretend Tale clearly illustrates the error and hypocrisy you show when you accuse the OSAS Believing their Doctrine solely to “ take Grace as a License to Sin”..... Your Doctrine allows for the Same ungodly Behavior ....both groups can abuse the Grace Of God if they are Foolish to try it ....

Tell me, can you live in sin and remain saved?

As understand it, OSAS can do just that. However, non OSAS cannot live in willful sin as a lifestyle without eventually losing salvation, and that is the difference beetween the two.
 

Taken

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Stop and think for a moment; if we will never stop sinning, then discipline is moot. Chastening someone for something they will never stop doing is a waste of time.

Soul Saved once and forever, we agree.

Sinning- we disagree.
We Probably disagree on WHAT SIN IS.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Paul Christensen

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I do believe that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we will have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all sin.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Therefore, if we are transparent long enough, the sins that were readily apparent before will be cleansed by the blood of Christ; and will no longer be apparent: not because the person is walking in darkness and hiding them from people; but because those sins have been dealt with at the Cross.
The point I am making that hypocrites don't confess their sins, either to God or anyone else. They hide them under a façade of being outwardly moral and "holy". But it is an act for the observers, and it is only when they are in the presence of other Christian believers. All it needs to ask their close families and relatives to expose who they really are. Also, their workmates and work supervisors also see the side of these people whom the fellow believers at church do not see.

This is the reason why a church-goer, even a pastor, priest, or minister, can appear very holy and zealous in their church activities but be an adulterer, pedophile, embezzler in environments where the other church members never see. Like the prominent TV evangelist caught in adultery and wept openly in front of the camera in a so called "repentance". Rubbish. It was an act of damage control because he got caught. Or the number of priests exposed molesting altar boys and they got found out only when they were caught when the boys grew up and reported them.
 

Paul Christensen

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Tell me, can you live in sin and remain saved?

As understand it, OSAS can do just that. However, non OSAS cannot live in willful sin as a lifestyle without eventually losing salvation, and that is the difference beetween the two.
The short answer is "no". The genuine convert to Christ is just that. He is converted by given a new heart and spirit, and so he lives for Christ in the Spirit. Sin becomes an unwelcome "cancer" within him which he does all he can to rid himself from the habit patterns associated with it. If he was a drunk, he is no longer. The thief stops stealing what doesn't belong to him. The fornicator stops womanising, the adulterer quits the affair and works toward reconciling with his family. Paul says to the Ephesians that they were once walking in darkness, but not any longer.

True conversion to Christ is not just an outward, verbal profession of Sunday Christianity. It is a total change of heart and spirit which is observed by close family and workmates. They know that there is something different though they don't know exactly what it is. They see that his conduct and behaviour is different, not like it was before. They might ask, "What has happened to you?" He might tell them that he has found Christ. This may result in admiration and respect, or, if his change brings conviction of their own sin to them, they might ridicule and persecute him. True believers have lost their jobs and rejected by their families when they embraced Christ.

But a hypocrite will never expose their Christian profession to their close family and workmates, because they want to have their Christian profession and be a friend to the world at the same time. But a true believer in Christ will never be ashamed of Jesus no matter where they are and they will expect ridicule and persecution. They know that Christ is worth dying for, and many true believers have lost their lives for their faith.

One important test is when a professing Christ is facing the wrong end of a shotgun and given the choice of denying Christ or dying. This is a professing believer decides whether his religion is worth dying for or not.
 

TheslightestID

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The short answer is "no". The genuine convert to Christ is just that. He is converted by given a new heart and spirit, and so he lives for Christ in the Spirit. Sin becomes an unwelcome "cancer" within him which he does all he can to rid himself from the habit patterns associated with it. If he was a drunk, he is no longer. The thief stops stealing what doesn't belong to him. The fornicator stops womanising, the adulterer quits the affair and works toward reconciling with his family. Paul says to the Ephesians that they were once walking in darkness, but not any longer.

Following is a piece from the parable of the Sower, and it shows a genuine convert who fell away from salvation, something that disagrees fully with what you are telling me. I would think that if you believed in Christ, you would believe what he is saying in the parable, but lets see what happens.

Mathew 23:20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

 
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Paul Christensen

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Following is a piece from the parable of the Sower, and it shows a genuine convert who fell away from salvation, something that disagrees fully with what you are telling me. I would think that if you believed in Christ, you would believe what he is saying in the parable, but lets see what happens.

Mathew 23:20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
What this section of the parable is saying is that the person has made a profession of Christianity, but doesn't follow it up by seeking the Lord for the full work of conversion by the Holy Spirit. The root referred to is the full conversion to Christ where the heart and spirit are fully changed. Anyone can hear the world of God, accept it as a mental assent to it, join a church, go through the motions of religion, but his heart and spirit remain unchanged until he starts earnestly seeking God for the full conversion to Christ that is necessary for rooting him securely in the faith.
 
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farouk

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Following is a piece from the parable of the Sower, and it shows a genuine convert who fell away from salvation, something that disagrees fully with what you are telling me. I would think that if you believed in Christ, you would believe what he is saying in the parable, but lets see what happens.

Mathew 23:20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
@TheslightestID Since it says 'they have no root', it can't have been genuine, permanently bases faith in the first place....
 

justbyfaith

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The point I am making that hypocrites don't confess their sins, either to God or anyone else. They hide them under a façade of being outwardly moral and "holy". But it is an act for the observers, and it is only when they are in the presence of other Christian believers. All it needs to ask their close families and relatives to expose who they really are. Also, their workmates and work supervisors also see the side of these people whom the fellow believers at church do not see.

This is the reason why a church-goer, even a pastor, priest, or minister, can appear very holy and zealous in their church activities but be an adulterer, pedophile, embezzler in environments where the other church members never see. Like the prominent TV evangelist caught in adultery and wept openly in front of the camera in a so called "repentance". Rubbish. It was an act of damage control because he got caught. Or the number of priests exposed molesting altar boys and they got found out only when they were caught when the boys grew up and reported them.

Of course, not all of those who are outwardly holy are necessarily hypocrites.

If you cleanse the inside of the cup and platter, the outside will also become clean (Matthew 23:25-28).
 

TheslightestID

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What this section of the parable is saying is that the person has made a profession of Christianity, but doesn't follow it up by seeking the Lord for the full work of conversion by the Holy Spirit. The root referred to is the full conversion to Christ where the heart and spirit are fully changed. Anyone can hear the world of God, accept it as a mental assent to it, join a church, go through the motions of religion, but his heart and spirit remain unchanged until he starts earnestly seeking God for the full conversion to Christ that is necessary for rooting him securely in the faith.

You have absolutely no reason to believe the "no root" meant he didnt have full conversion, you are assuming that, when Christ did not go into any of it. He had conversion, and that's what mattered. There was also no reason for you to claim his heart and spirit had not changed, no reason at all.

As far as him not following up, you have no idea how much he followed up by doing whatever, as there is no mention there if he did or did not. Unless you can show me where the very simple and short scripture said the things you claim it did, seems you are adding many things when they are not in the scripture at all. Do you now see where you added so much to the scripture, you have now changed Jesus's parable to mean what you want it to mean?

He recieved it with joy, and to what extent, we dont know. Sure, it had no root, but for the sake of this argument, that doesnt matter. He recieved the word, and fell away. What do you think he fell away from? Jesus had a way of keeping things very simple for a reason.
 

justbyfaith

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The person whose heart was rocky ground fell away from faith, no doubt about it (Luke 8:13).

However, John 6:47 would seem to present to us a contradiction unless there are two types of faith:

1) a mental assent, that is nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith...the Luke 8:13 type.

2) a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14)...the John 6:47 type.
 

justbyfaith

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Matthew 23.30. This is not saving faith in Christ that is in view.
Are you certain that you have the right scripture?

Mat 23:30, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
 

Cooper

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Following is a piece from the parable of the Sower, and it shows a genuine convert who fell away from salvation, something that disagrees fully with what you are telling me. I would think that if you believed in Christ, you would believe what he is saying in the parable, but lets see what happens.

Mathew 23:20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
"They received it with joy" describes a new convert, a believer. We need to nurture the babes in Christ, so they do not fall by the wayside. This is a message to all church leaders and those who are well grounded in the faith, so they do not fall away. They did not reject the message, but like the woman at the well, they received it with joy. I praise God for all those who receive the word with Joy.
.
 
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Paul Christensen

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Perhaps I am of a different kind of breed.

I do believe that "willful sins" will make a person lost;

And yet I have stood outside with people who needed to smoke a cigarette while church was going on.

Because I understand that grace, when properly executed, will bring deliverance from sin rather than making a man more licentious; as when it is taught as being a license for sin.

You tolerate that person's sinful patterns and behaviours in the hope that something that you say will get through to them and they will repent unto true salvation.

Being gentle in this is important.

Sometimes putting aside your theology in order to reach the person may indeed be necessary.

Standing outside with a smoker may not be the preaching ministry in which you are hitting them over the head with the Bible; but it is often more effective in that it should be clear that that person already knows that he is sinning by smoking that cigarette. What he needs is the understanding that he is accepted by you and that therefore the One whom you represent may also accept him, though he feels condemned by his behaviour, from the One whom you represent.

It may even be that he stands condemned (for the Holy Spirit convicts of judgment) and that this is the reason why he feels condemned.

However, if he feels accepted by you, he will be coming back to church and it is at church that he may finally get the message that will change his life.
I think I previous had a dig at you for prophetic "you" messages, and you explained that you didn't mean it the way it sounds. I was tempted to have another dig at your "prophecy" but I refrained. :)

Actually, cigarette smoking isn't one of the components listed in Paul's Galatian 5 works of the flesh. Jesus said it is not what goes into a person that defiles him but what comes out - ie, through his mouth, and it ain't cigarette smoke!

But having said that, because our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, it could be a sin to do anything that could damage it and shorten our life expectancy. The same could be said of binge eating, and being a workaholic and allowing ourselves to experience undue stress. Driving over-fast and recklessly, as well as not looking both ways before crossing the road could definitely shorten our lives! Going into a gay bar and referring to them as fairies could certainly damage your body!!

But if we see a fellow believer engaging in the works of the flesh as identified in Galatians 5, then there are instructions about how we as brethren correct them in love. We go to them privately first, rather than, as my friend experienced, having their sin blurted out before 400 people in a church service and being told publicly that he is not fit to receive the Lord's supper. And all my friend did was to visit another woman from the church to get counselling advice because of difficulties with the woman he was engaged to. He was treated as if he had sex with the other woman and in so doing was unfaithful to his fiance. But he did nothing of the sort, and going to a woman in the church for counselling is certainly not a sin. But the church leader was so legalistic that even breaking wind in church was the unforgiveable sin to him!

Going to a person privately preserves dignity. It is when he won't listen that you take another person with you. And if he is still obstinate, then that is when his infraction is reported to the leadership of the church. But we are talking about an action that could being discredit on the church, not because he was in the habit of cursing the four-letter version of "gosh darn the blankety heck" when he hit his thumb with the hammer!

I would privately correct a brother in Christ if I found out that he was in the habit of hitting his wife and children when he got angry with them. That is the type of sin that we must give correction for, because it gives the impression that someone can praise God in church on Sunday, then go home and beat up his wife and children. Or if a married brother is getting too friendly with the single female church secretary. He would need to be warned about faithfulness to his family.

The devil is very cunning and deceptive, and he can, through a gradual process, snare a person into sin. Often other brethren in the church see it before he does, and that is the time when faithful brethren need to get the person aside and show him or her the deviant path that is being taken. If we can do that, we can save a brother or sister in Christ from disaster and ruin, and retain the integrity of the church's witness to the world.