OSAS Deniers can “ Sin and Get Away With It Too! Here’s How!

[Paul Christensen]

Of course, not all of those who are outwardly holy are necessarily hypocrites.

If you cleanse the inside of the cup and platter, the outside will also become clean (Matthew 23:25-28).

Correct. It is more the emphasis that the hypocrite puts on holiness to show others that he is extremely holy. It can reveal itself as a holier than thou attitude to others. If a person is truly holy, then it will show without the person doing what Mr Bean would to make it obvious that he is super holy.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You have absolutely no reason to believe the "no root" meant he didnt have full conversion, you are assuming that, when Christ did not go into any of it. He had conversion, and that's what mattered. There was also no reason for you to claim his heart and spirit had not changed, no reason at all.

As far as him not following up, you have no idea how much he followed up by doing whatever, as there is no mention there if he did or did not. Unless you can show me where the very simple and short scripture said the things you claim it did, seems you are adding many things when they are not in the scripture at all. Do you now see where you added so much to the scripture, you have now changed Jesus's parable to mean what you want it to mean?

Whoops! Here is another who needs to prophesy to me by using "you" messages. I never accept unsolicited prophecies. When you start guessing at what I believe, you are getting close to divination and mind-reading.

I subscribe to the view of Joseph Alleine who wrote "Alarm to the Unconverted" in the 17th Century. He was one of the most successful soul winners of his time, and his converts hardly ever fell away from the faith. His view was that making a mere profession of Christian was not enough. This is similar to the "easy believerism" of today when people think they are converted to Christ just because they say a short prayer at the altar. Alleine did not have the problem with only 5% of his converts going on long-term in the faith as is the case with all modern evangelistic efforts. He believed and taught that genuine conversion had to be sought for earnestly and that the person who made the Christian profession needed to make sure that he or she is definitely fully converted to Christ.

This is in total harmony with 2 Peter 1:10:
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble". Obeying this Scripture goes well beyond just praying a short prayer and then saying, "I am a converted Christian now!"

 

[TheslightestID]

Whoops! Here is another who needs to prophesy to me by using "you" messages. I never accept unsolicited prophecies. When you start guessing at what I believe, you are getting close to divination and mind-reading.


I subscribe to the view of Joseph Alleine who wrote "Alarm to the Unconverted" in the 17th Century. He was one of the most successful soul winners of his time, and his converts hardly ever fell away from the faith. His view was that making a mere profession of Christian was not enough. This is similar to the "easy believerism" of today when people think they are converted to Christ just because they say a short prayer at the altar. Alleine did not have the problem with only 5% of his converts going on long-term in the faith as is the case with all modern evangelistic efforts. He believed and taught that genuine conversion had to be sought for earnestly and that the person who made the Christian profession needed to make sure that he or she is definitely fully converted to Christ.

This is in total harmony with 2 Peter 1:10:
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble". Obeying this Scripture goes well beyond just praying a short prayer and then saying, "I am a converted Christian now!"

I haven't sent you a single message...no idea what is meant by that.

It was no guess, it was what you said, no mind reading necessary. Things were being made up, and it had nothing to do with prophecies, whatever that meant..Christ simply did not say those things. Clearly you are offended I called you on it so we will part company here in order to keep the peace..

 

[Paul Christensen]

You are assuming that, when Christ did not go into any of it. He had conversion, and that's what mattered. As far as him not following up, you have no idea how much he followed up by doing whatever, as there is no mention there if he did or did not. seems you are adding many things when they are not in the scripture at all. Do you now see where you added so much to the scripture, you have now changed Jesus's parable to mean what you want it to mean?

When you make assumptions like this, it comes across as an attempt to give a prophecy. The "you" statements are the ones making the assumption. It would be better to use another word than "you", and then you won't be giving the impression that you are doing my thinking for me.

 

[justbyfaith]

My apologies; fixed this to Matthew 23.20-21.

It still doesn't seem to fit what you are trying to say...

Perhpas you could quote the verse and expound upon it and how it applies to the subject at hand.

Actually, cigarette smoking isn't one of the components listed in Paul's Galatian 5 works of the flesh.

The nicotine would qualify as pharmakeia (witchcraft).

Going into a gay bar and referring to them as fairies could certainly damage your body!!

Actually, they like that designation...

There was a gay event in my home town of San Pedro and one of the features was a boat that carried gays in their cars...a "fairy ferry".

But if we see a fellow believer engaging in the works of the flesh as identified in Galatians 5, then there are instructions about how we as brethren correct them in love. We go to them privately first, rather than, as my friend experienced, having their sin blurted out before 400 people in a church service and being told publicly that he is not fit to receive the Lord's supper. And all my friend did was to visit another woman from the church to get counselling advice because of difficulties with the woman he was engaged to. He was treated as if he had sex with the other woman and in so doing was unfaithful to his fiance. But he did nothing of the sort, and going to a woman in the church for counselling is certainly not a sin. But the church leader was so legalistic that even breaking wind in church was the unforgiveable sin to him!

Maybe they took it overboard and maybe they didn't. I know that it is conventional wisdom that counseling is not to happen between members of the opposite sex; especially if one of them is married.

And I really don't think that breaking the wind in church is very respectful to the Lord or the people who attend. It may not be the unpardonable sin; but it is a social more that if broken, can really cause a lot of embarrassment. I did it once when I was 12 and I don't think that my older brother ever forgave me, it embarrassed him so much. It simply was not kosher for me to do that.

 

[farouk]

It still doesn't seem to fit what you are trying to say...

Perhpas you could quote the verse and expound upon it and how it applies to the subject at hand.

Matthew 13.20-21:

"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

I don't see that the person in view here ever had true eternal life. I see no true rootedness. I see no abiding faith that will withstand tribulation. I see no real eternal life that will withstand being offended outwardly. The joy mentioned in verse 21 is not a lasting joy; and can be assumed therefore not to be genuine, but superficial. With regard to what did the person fall away from, he was never anywhere genuinely rooted by faith in eternal life in the first place.

 

[justbyfaith]

Matthew 23.20-21:

"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

I don't see that the person in view here ever had true eternal life. I see no true rootedness. I see no abiding faith that will withstand tribulation. I see no real eternal life that will withstand being offended outwardly. The joy mentioned in verse 21 is not a lasting joy; and can be assumed therefore not to be genuine, but superficial. With regard to what did the person fall away from, he was never anywhere genuinely rooted by faith in eternal life in the first place.

That is Matthew 13 not 23.

 

[farouk]

That is Matthew 13 not 23.

Thanks; fixed the reference.

 

[farouk]

PS: The bottom line is that in my understanding the person who had no root and who received the word at first with joy but does not continue, was never truly saved in the first place.

 

[justbyfaith]

With regard to what did the person fall away from, he was never anywhere genuinely rooted by faith in eternal life in the first place.

He did have what qualified as "faith" (Luke 8:13) but it was not a heart faith unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).

It was a "mental assent" that amounted to being lukewarm, nominal, and shallow.

 

[farouk]

He did have what qualified as "faith" (Luke 8:13) but it was not a heart faith unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).

It was a "mental assent" that amounted to being lukewarm, nominal, and shallow.

I would agree with your commentary, basically, indeed.

 

[Paul Christensen]

It still doesn't seem to fit what you are trying to say...

Perhpas you could quote the verse and expound upon it and how it applies to the subject at hand.



The nicotine would qualify as pharmakeia (witchcraft).



Actually, they like that designation...

There was a gay event in my home town of San Pedro and one of the features was a boat that carried gays in their cars...a "fairy ferry".



Maybe they took it overboard and maybe they didn't. I know that it is conventional wisdom that counseling is not to happen between members of the opposite sex; especially if one of them is married.

And I really don't think that breaking the wind in church is very respectful to the Lord or the people who attend. It may not be the unpardonable sin; but it is a social more that if broken, can really cause a lot of embarrassment. I did it once when I was 12 and I don't think that my older brother ever forgave me, it embarrassed him so much. It simply was not kosher for me to do that.

You missed the humour. I think the witchcraft angle is a bit of a stretch.

 

[farouk]

Whoops! Here is another who needs to prophesy to me by using "you" messages. I never accept unsolicited prophecies. When you start guessing at what I believe, you are getting close to divination and mind-reading.

I subscribe to the view of Joseph Alleine who wrote "Alarm to the Unconverted" in the 17th Century. He was one of the most successful soul winners of his time, and his converts hardly ever fell away from the faith. His view was that making a mere profession of Christian was not enough. This is similar to the "easy believerism" of today when people think they are converted to Christ just because they say a short prayer at the altar. Alleine did not have the problem with only 5% of his converts going on long-term in the faith as is the case with all modern evangelistic efforts. He believed and taught that genuine conversion had to be sought for earnestly and that the person who made the Christian profession needed to make sure that he or she is definitely fully converted to Christ.

This is in total harmony with 2 Peter 1:10:
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble". Obeying this Scripture goes well beyond just praying a short prayer and then saying, "I am a converted Christian now!"

@Paul Christensen Alleine indeed stressed the Biblical nature of the essential truth of repentance.

 

[TheslightestID]

When you make assumptions like this, it comes across as an attempt to give a prophecy. The "you" statements are the ones making the assumption. It would be better to use another word than "you", and then you won't be giving the impression that you are doing my thinking for me.

There were no assumptions, just claiming things that were not written in the bible, and instead of simply admitting that was a fact I got that prophecy mess that made no sense at all.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

A person can prophesy without having the Holy Spirit (it may turn out to be false); but I do not believe that a person can speak in tongues without having the Spirit...

Mar 16:17, And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Now I know that a person can in fact cast out devils without Jesus knowing them; that is by virtue of the name of Jesus which has power.

But tongues is a supernatural sign gift that proves to unbelievers that you are saved and they are not, when you speak in tongues in front of them, they almost will always feel convicted: at least, that was my experience before I got the gift myself.

Did you know that it is a SIN to speak in Tongues if there is not somebody there to explain
what is being said? You really ought to KNOW your Bible before you pretend to be a Bible Teacher.....”show yourself to be a good student of the Word, so you don’t have to stand ashamed”..... you and your Confused Teaching? You should be ashamed.....and may God grant you the “ Lucky Repentance” That is the “ End -All and Be - All “ of your False, Perverted Gospel Of Works....

 

[Taken]

PS: The bottom line is that in my understanding the person who had no root and who received the word at first with joy but does not continue, was never truly saved in the first place.

Agree, with a bit of different perspective.

• Salvation - Given
Expressly;
Of, By, Through Christ Jesus.

• Salvation - Received
Expressly;
Of an individual's HEARTS Thought,
By an individuals True Hearts CONFESSION.

Condunrum-
WHO knows a man's True HEARTS Thought?
1) The individual
2) The Lord God

• Observing men, only truly know what they Observe.

• Observing a man going to an alter call, water baptism, is satisfactory for becoming a Church Member.

• That ^, and observing regular Church attendance, Person's involvement in Church activities, monetary donations, etc. gains individuals respect as a godly person.

Bottom line- men can be Fooled.
The Lord God is Never Fooled.

Shocking revelations to men-
• Congregates later claiming they never believed, quit the Church.
• Clerics, claiming they never believed.
• Disbelief, Affairs, out of wedlock children born, womanizing, drunkards, porno addicts, behind closed doors Family tyrants, Child sex, Homosexuality, Druggies, etc.

Those OF this World sums it up as Duel Lives & Secret Lives.

Jesus Sums it up as:
Clean on the Outside, Dead on the Inside.

Jesus' Lesson is He came to HEAL the INSIDE.
For an Individual to Become HEALED...
The individual Must Confess with his Hearts Thought...a Desire for The Lord TO Heal the individual...

Bottom line is: Regardless of the length an Individual will go to BE APPROVED by other men...
They have NO Intent to be Approved or Committed or Healed by the Lord God...

• It is IMO, it is a most egregious sinister act for ANY individual to USE the Lord God, as a Front Man name dropping source, to Fool the public, while pressing on in their behind the door Activities.

• Thus also ... I do not believe they Fooled The Lord God, and received His Gift of Salvation.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[farouk]

Agree, with a bit of different perspective.

• Salvation - Given
Expressly;
Of, By, Through Christ Jesus.

• Salvation - Received
Expressly;
Of an individual's HEARTS Thought,
By an individuals True Hearts CONFESSION.

Condunrum-
WHO knows a man's True HEARTS Thought?
1) The individual
2) The Lord God

• Observing men, only truly know what they Observe.

• Observing a man going to an alter call, water baptism, is satisfactory for becoming a Church Member.

• That ^, and observing regular Church attendance, Person's involvement in Church activities, monetary donations, etc. gains individuals respect as a godly person.

Bottom line- men can be Fooled.
The Lord God is Never Fooled.

Shocking revelations to men-
• Congregates later claiming they never believed, quit the Church.
• Clerics, claiming they never believed.
• Disbelief, Affairs, out of wedlock children born, womanizing, drunkards, porno addicts, behind closed doors Family tyrants, Child sex, Homosexuality, Druggies, etc.

Those OF this World sums it up as Duel Lives & Secret Lives.

Jesus Sums it up as:
Clean on the Outside, Dead on the Inside.

Jesus' Lesson is He came to HEAL the INSIDE.
For an Individual to Become HEALED...
The individual Must Confess with his Hearts Thought...a Desire for The Lord TO Heal the individual...

Bottom line is: Regardless of the length an Individual will go to BE APPROVED by other men...
They have NO Intent to be Approved or Committed or Healed by the Lord God...

• It is IMO, it is a most egregious sinister act for ANY individual to USE the Lord God, as a Front Man name dropping source, to Fool the public, while pressing on in their behind the door Activities.

• Thus also ... I do not believe they Fooled The Lord God, and received His Gift of Salvation.

Glory to God,
Taken

@Taken: Ephesians 3 makes it clear that what happens spiritually with the inner man is what really counts...

 

[Taken]

@Taken: Ephesians 3 makes it clear that what happens spiritually with the inner man is what really counts...

Precisely.

Faithful God, Glory to Him,
Taken

 

[farouk]

Precisely.

Faithful God, Glory to Him,
Taken

@Taken Indeed; thanks.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Did you know that it is a SIN to speak in Tongues if there is not somebody there to explain
what is being said? You really ought to KNOW your Bible before you pretend to be a Bible Teacher.....”show yourself to be a good student of the Word, so you don’t have to stand ashamed”..... you and your Confused Teaching? You should be ashamed.....and may God grant you the “ Lucky Repentance” That is the “ End -All and Be - All “ of your False, Perverted Gospel Of Works....

I do know my Bible and know that Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:17 that those who speak in tongues give thanks well enough even if the tongues is not interpreted. Perhaps you missed that small phrase which totally contradicts your view. You really should make sure of your Biblical facts before accusing others of having confused teaching, to ensure you don't end up with egg on your face.