Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit

[2nd Timothy Group]

Hello Paul,
I'm sure 2ndTim did not actually mean that he is above others, and for sure, neither am I! I know where he is coming from as, I too, and many other folks have not seen the love of Christ in so many of our brothers and sisters. It all seems to be criticizing or judging "wrongly", shunning, not including, just plain cliquey. Of course no human on earth today is perfect and if they say they are, they are lying.
And yes indeed, we MUST be very, very careful when trying to take the splinter out of a bro or sis's eye...to be sure we ourselves do not have a whole forest sticking out of our own So no, not judging in the way you are saying but YES, judging rightly when a brother or sister is not acting like one. We are not to EVER judge those "without" the church. But...within the Church?? What of the people who fall through the cracks and become ignored because they just do not "fit in" with the cliques? I should think the leaders of said church should be aware of these things but...to my knowledge, and experience, this is not so.
So in a way, YES, we (or at least I) AM judging those within as, John 13:35 seems to be missing from their bibles...
The "gathering of the brethren" should include all congregants but the simple truth is that, it does not. Unless one is on the receiving end of the nastiness of MANY Christians, they have no clue nor idea of what it can be like so yes, I do judge them in that area. Pray for them? Of course, pray for the fullness of His "unity", all the time! Who knows, maybe if the church doors ever open again, congregations will have more of an appreciation for their bro's and sisters...ALL of them.
I'm not looking to argue, or even debate this further as, I know that I never, ever place myself above others but, cannot say that about all on here. There is more of God's love in the pinky fingertips of so many poor countries than whole congregations in the developed countries! Jesus COMMANDED us to love one another and, I do so hope one day to see it for real.
Sorry if I sound a bit sensitive with this subject of "loving" but that is because, well i am a sensitive person!
Love you bro! :)

Amazing post, just amazing! ;)

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Indeed I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 13

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Absolutely, and many of us, here, would agree that this form of Love does not come from ourselves, but it is produced by the Indwelling Holy Spirit. This is why if we do not possess THIS Love, then we are nothing, no matter how great one might believe he or she is. If we do not possess this Love from God, it means that we have not been Purified by the Hands of Christ; it means he has not lifted the Curse, or the Sinful Nature, from our Hearts. We cannot Love the way the Lord wants us to Love if we have not been granted the ability to Repent, Turn to Christ for His Holy Circumcision of the Heart, and have received the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 13 is everything! If we do not embody the Love Chapter, we are in deep, deep trouble.

 

[Nancy]

Amazing post, just amazing! ;)

You are TOO kind....I wouldn't say "amazing" but, thanks, lol.

 

[Nancy]

Indeed I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 13

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

A big AMEN to that :)

 

[Nancy]

Absolutely, and many of us, here, would agree that this form of Love does not come from ourselves, but it is produced by the Indwelling Holy Spirit. This is why if we do not possess THIS Love, then we are nothing, no matter how great one might believe he or she is. If we do not possess this Love from God, it means that we have not been Purified by the Hands of Christ; it means he has not lifted the Curse, or the Sinful Nature, from our Hearts. We cannot Love the way the Lord wants us to Love if we have not been granted the ability to Repent, Turn to Christ for His Holy Circumcision of the Heart, and have received the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 13 is everything! If we do not embody the Love Chapter, we are in deep, deep trouble.

Deep doo-doo is right! As that is one of only two commands Christ left us with. And, if followed and obeyed...we will NOT break the commandments as, Jesus said:

"36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:36-40

 

[Amos Ministries]

Every person who is genuinely converted to Christ has the Holy Spirit and therefore has the potential to manifest any of the spiritual gifts. The examples in Acts show clearly that conversion and filling of the Holy Spirit are one and the same.

Anyone can give prophecies, speak in tongues, give words of knowledge from the flesh. None of the "prophecies to the nation" given by self-appointed "prophets" is of the flesh and not of the Spirit, because that role passed into history after John the Baptizer. Anyone can dream up stuff and say it is the Lord speaking, but in fact it is taking the Lord's name in vain. Most of the public uncontrolled tongues without interpretation is of the flesh because it is not in accordance with Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14. False "words of knowledge" are basically on the same level as what Psychics do, and can not only be in the flesh but can go into New Age occult divination. In fact, false personal prophecies giving indications of wealth and fame contain spirits of divination which can attack a person in the spirit and body and the "victim" may need deliverance to get freedom from the effects of it.

A person genuinely filled with the Spirit shows the fruit of the Spirit as listed in Galatians 5. This is the foundation of having the assurance that a genuinely Spirit-filled person is living and walking in the Spirit and therefore when any spiritual gift is manifested, it is correct and genuine, and points others to Christ.

There are examples of people who were converted and weren't filled with the Holy Spirit at the same time.

In Acts 19, Paul explains this to new disciples in Ephesus:

Now it happened that while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, ?Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?? And they said to him, ?On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.? 3 And he said, ?Into what then were you baptized?? And they said, ?Into John?s baptism.? 4 Paul said, ?John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.? 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Another example can be found in:

Acts 8:14-17 ? When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

A person genuinely filled with the Spirit shows the fruit of the Spirit as listed in Galatians 5. This is the foundation of having the assurance that a genuinely Spirit-filled person is living and walking in the Spirit and therefore when any spiritual gift is manifested, it is correct and genuine, and points others to Christ.

I agree.

 

[ChristisGod]

Deep doo-doo is right! As that is one of only two commands Christ left us with. And, if followed and obeyed...we will NOT break the commandments as, Jesus said:

"36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:36-40

indeed and I love your signature !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

There are examples of people who were converted and weren't filled with the Holy Spirit at the same time.

In Acts 19, Paul explains this to new disciples in Ephesus:

Now it happened that while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, ?Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?? And they said to him, ?On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.? 3 And he said, ?Into what then were you baptized?? And they said, ?Into John?s baptism.? 4 Paul said, ?John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.? 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Another example can be found in:

Acts 8:14-17 ? When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.



I agree.

Is Jesus God ?

I have asked you several times now and your website is vague regarding the Son.

Thank you in advance for answering this question.

 

[Nancy]

indeed and I love your signature !!!

Why, thank you :) I love it too and do my best to honestly and sincerely obey it.
Happy New Year Bro!

 

[Amos Ministries]

Please show us from Scripture once the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost any person with a "spiritual gift " that is not saved.

In Acts 19, Paul explains this to new disciples in Ephesus:

Now it happened that while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, ?Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?? And they said to him, ?On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.? 3 And he said, ?Into what then were you baptized?? And they said, ?Into John?s baptism.? 4 Paul said, ?John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.? 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Another example can be found in:

Acts 8:14-17 ? When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

So you are saying God can give the spiritual gifts below to non believers ?

That is an oxymoron.

I am not saying this - I'm merely referring to Jesus:

Matthew 7:22 - Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Thanks for copying and pasting definitions of gifts of the spirit. I am not arguing about what they mean.

:My position is that Gifts of the spirit are not proof that you have the Holy Spirit as per Matthew 7:22.

 

[Amos Ministries]

I just went to your website and I noticed you do not have a statement of faith.

So I have a question for you. Who is God, can you please define who God is and include Jesus in your statement so I know your position on the Son. I read your fathers/sons article and it appears from that article that only the Father is God. Is that correct ? yes or no.

Thank you !

This was an article related to fathers and sons. From this, you are questioning the foundations of my faith?

Would you like me to have written an article about Fathers and Fathers to satisfy you? Read the article in its context!

 

[Amos Ministries]

Wonderful post @Amos Ministries ,
sometimes there seems to be a disconnect with the gifts of the Spirit. I do know some who profess that if one doesn't have a "sign gift"...you know... the signs and wonders" kind of thing we "see" with our physical eyes, watch, and physical ears "hear", many go 'ooh and aah' but IMHO, really miss the mark where the whole being and Character of Jesus and of the Spirit of God...God's own Image, or imprint! and His fruits are concerned. These are what really make up a true church, IMHO! Love for one another, that shows our love for Him.
_____ <---- Sig. verse, :)

I agree!

 

[ChristisGod]

This was an article related to fathers and sons. From this, you are questioning the foundations of my faith?

Would you like me to have written an article about Fathers and Fathers to satisfy you? Read the article in its context!

no I only want to know if you believe the Son is God. That is a simple request. Thank you.

 

[Amos Ministries]

The point here is that having the physical presence of Jesus Himself make it unnecessary to have the Holy Spirit's presence at the same time. Jesus gave the disciples direct authority to cast out devils and heal the sick for the specific mission that He gave them to perform in the towns and villages. Jesus said later that He had to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come to them, because the Holy Spirit came to the church to represent Jesus - that having the Holy Spirit is the same as having Jesus. There is no need for a representative if the person is actually present. But when Jesus was ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father, this made the way open for the Holy Spirit to come to church and to continue the commission to go into all the world and make disciples.

In Acts 19, Paul explains this to new disciples in Ephesus:

Now it happened that while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, ?Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?? And they said to him, ?On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.? 3 And he said, ?Into what then were you baptized?? And they said, ?Into John?s baptism.? 4 Paul said, ?John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.? 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Another example can be found in:

Acts 8:14-17 ? When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

 

[Amos Ministries]

Is Jesus God ?

I have asked you several times now and your website is vague regarding the Son.

Thank you in advance for answering this question.

This thread is not about the Trinity. Answer the question at hand - you have not responded to anything. If I wasn't a trinitarian, I wouldn't be on this website, would I?

I would question your own beliefs about who Jesus is, since you are quick to surmise that Jesus is not God.

 

[ChristisGod]

This thread is not about the Trinity. Answer the question at hand - you have not responded to anything. If I wasn't a trinitarian, I wouldn't be on this website, would I?

I would question your own beliefs about who Jesus is, since you are quick to surmise that Jesus is not God.

so you are a trinitarian is that correct ?

and since you are new here you should not be defensive about answering a question like that. people like myself like to know if we are talking about the same God as you are on the forum.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

You are TOO kind....I wouldn't say "amazing" but, thanks, lol.

No, Nancy my friend . . . it really was amazing. You were worried about being a bit too harsh, but I didn't sense that at all. I thought you were not only correct in all that you wrote, but I felt that you had a proper balance between teaching and having a balanced Mind of Christ. :)

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Deep doo-doo is right! As that is one of only two commands Christ left us with. And, if followed and obeyed...we will NOT break the commandments as, Jesus said:

"36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:36-40

Yes, ma'am! And why is the Law unbreakable if we possess this Love that comes through the hands of Christ? Because by believing in Christ, this in itself fulfills the Law of Moses, meaning that a person now shares in the Divine Nature of Christ, which means that they will now live by the Influential Laws of Christ that Cause and motivate us to follow His Eternal Laws. It is through the Holy Operation of God that a person is risen from the Law that pronounces sin and death!

Notice that this is the beautiful KJV translation below!

Colossians 2:11-15 KJV - "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

Note: "hath he quickened together with him" does not mean the foreskins of the penis. It is referring to the Sinful Nature. Good grief people . . . Jesus did not quicken together with himself the foreskins of millions of men! Come on, man! lol

When the Sin Nature is removed by the Holy Operation of Christ, the Veil that covered the temporary Glory of the Old Testament Law as reflected as light in the face of Moses, then we are able to see the full Glory of the Laws of the Spirit of Life, for only in Christ is that Veil removed. And when that Veil (the Sin Nature) is removed, we will finally have the capacity to Love exactly as described in 1st Corinthians 13.

When we begin to see how the Old Testament sheds this kind of Loving Light on the New Testament, we realize that these ancient writings are nothing short of a Powerful Miracle. In seeing how the Circumcision of Abraham, the Laws of Moses and the Circumcision of Christ all work together . . . it is Powerfully shocking and proves that our God is in full control of all things. The Mysterious Plan of God is the single most astonishing thing I have ever discovered through the whole of my life. So thankful!!! :)

 

[Paul Christensen]

In Acts 19, Paul explains this to new disciples in Ephesus:

Now it happened that while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, ?Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?? And they said to him, ?On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.? 3 And he said, ?Into what then were you baptized?? And they said, ?Into John?s baptism.? 4 Paul said, ?John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.? 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Another example can be found in:

Acts 8:14-17 ? When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

It is very interesting that you have linked these two events. There is a similarity that I have not seen before. The disciples at Ephesus had been baptised with John's baptism, believing in the Messiah to come. The Samaritans believed Philip's teaching and were baptised in the name of Jesus.

What this shows me that merely believing the gospel and going through the rite of baptism is not enough to be fully converted to Christ. For a full conversion, one must receive the Holy Spirit. Joseph Alleine, one of the most effective Puritan evangelists taught that just believing the gospel was not enough, but that one must earnestly seek the Lord for the Holy Spirit to do the full work of conversion in him. This teaching is found in his book "Alarm to the Unconverted".

Luke doesn't tell us what Paul, Peter and John taught the new believers, but I can accept that the believers were taught the necessity of pressing into God for a full conversion to Christ involving receiving the Holy Spirit. This is a lesson for all those who share the gospel, that just making a profession for Christ is not enough. There must be a full conversion to Christ involving receiving the Holy Spirit.

Now I must totally refute the false doctrine that one must speak in tongues in order to be saved. Those who subscribe to this doctrine may very well speak in tongues and believe they are saved, but the tongues are generally of the flesh and not the genuine gift of tongues. The receiving of the Holy Spirit is linked with a full conversion to Christ, with the respective gifts, including tongues, comes afterward.

I am reminded of Apollos, who was mighty in the preaching of the Word, but had only the baptism of John, and it took Aquila and Priscilla to "show him the way more perfectly", and although Luke doesn't give us the details, it can be safely assumed that he received the Holy Spirit, fully converting him to Christ and adding more power to his preaching.

If we carefully look at all the examples of believers receiving the Holy Spirit, we see a similarity - that these believers were earnestly seeking what God had for them, and when the gospel of Christ was presented to them in its full form, they accepted it gladly and pressed into God who honoured their faith by filling them with the Holy Spirit.

In summary, just praying a simple prayer and being baptised is not enough full a full conversion to Christ. One must show that they mean business with God and to seek Him with all their hearts for a full conversion to Christ involving receiving the Holy Spirit. God will never honour a double-minded, half-hearted person with the filling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[mjrhealth]

“ nobody can say “ Jesus is Lord” unless the have the Holy Spirit within them”
1Cor12:3

Anyone can and many do, what one says does not necessarily prove what one is.