It's a race we must never cease to run until we reach the finish line.❤
We start out as babes feeding on the milk...as we continue to grow eventually we eat the meat....our discipline grows and we become less impulsive about satisfying the flesh
Now it's not me, but sin that lives in me
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We start out as babes feeding on the milk...as we continue to grow eventually we eat the meat....our discipline grows and we become less impulsive about satisfying the flesh
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Well that's how I perceive it. The cross reference didn't quote any OT...I think I have to stick with this....I humbly agree to disagree...but I still love ya sister!
Not sure what cross reference you are referring to. Romans 7 IS about the Law, and the Ten Commandments specifically.
Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
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CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Exactly????? You're kidding! Romans 7:17 is NOT someone with the Spirit, but with the Law of Moses. Read the context if anyone dare. The sin is not dead, it is in control!!!!!Exactly!!
The last thing you asked was almost an existential question, like "if not me then who or what? I thought Wow, that was really advanced thinking. I'm not used to it on these forums. I should ponder this. It got me to thinking, and I think Paul meant not who I was created to be (before Adam's sin). We inherited the corrupt nature of Satan who became Adam's master. So it wasn't the human being God created, but sin in me. But then when you said, "Exactly" That advanced thinking dropped in a sink hole. Honestly, I felt like I was in an episode of the Twilight Zone of incongruousness.
I'm done with this post.
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2nd Timothy Group
Well-Known Member
Fortunately, for the True Christian that has received the Blessings of Christ, the Sinful Nature is cut out and permanently removed. And this is what happened to Paul, the one whose Holy Transformation began on the Damascus Road, which was well before he wrote Romans.
Colossians 2:11-12 KJV - "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
The Apostle Paul was not out of control, if he were, he could never ask his readers to follow and become like him . . . about 18 times, I would say. If Paul were out of control, he could never ask anyone to become like him, that in by modeling him, a person would be like Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:12 NLT - "We can say with confidence and a clear conscience that we have lived with a God-given holiness and sincerity in all our dealings. We have depended on God's grace, not on our own human wisdom. That is how we have conducted ourselves before the world, and especially toward you."
Colossians 2:11-12 KJV - "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
The Apostle Paul was not out of control, if he were, he could never ask his readers to follow and become like him . . . about 18 times, I would say. If Paul were out of control, he could never ask anyone to become like him, that in by modeling him, a person would be like Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:12 NLT - "We can say with confidence and a clear conscience that we have lived with a God-given holiness and sincerity in all our dealings. We have depended on God's grace, not on our own human wisdom. That is how we have conducted ourselves before the world, and especially toward you."
DancesWithGnostics
Well-Known Member
"I was alive without the Law once"
a bizarre thing for Paul to say - IF HE IS WRITING AUTOBIOGRAPHICALLY
because elsewhere he says -- of his own actual life -- that he was "brought up at the feet of Gamaliel"; so autobiograhically - Paul always had the law.
That being the case, this person who was "alive without the Law once" is not our historical Saul of Tarsus, but a figure of speech character - written of to illustrate a person in the situation of "I can't do what I want to do - I do what I hate". That is the SITUATION of trying to be justified by the Law. If Saul Paulus of Tarsus is ACTUALLY this "wretched man" then we are pretty sunk ourselves - but that's not the meaning.
a bizarre thing for Paul to say - IF HE IS WRITING AUTOBIOGRAPHICALLY
because elsewhere he says -- of his own actual life -- that he was "brought up at the feet of Gamaliel"; so autobiograhically - Paul always had the law.
That being the case, this person who was "alive without the Law once" is not our historical Saul of Tarsus, but a figure of speech character - written of to illustrate a person in the situation of "I can't do what I want to do - I do what I hate". That is the SITUATION of trying to be justified by the Law. If Saul Paulus of Tarsus is ACTUALLY this "wretched man" then we are pretty sunk ourselves - but that's not the meaning.
DancesWithGnostics
Well-Known Member
Rom 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
The I and the me in these verses is a chracter the real Paul is ADDRESSING
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
The I and the me in these verses is a chracter the real Paul is ADDRESSING
DancesWithGnostics
Well-Known Member
DancesWithGnostics
Well-Known Member
Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
An so Paul is moving back and forth in THOSE HE IS ADDRESSING - those who know the Law (7:1) - those who have become dead to the Law - those who were alive without the Law - those who died when the commandment came - all the various states people can be in regarding both the LAW like OT Law - and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (which sets us free from the Law of Sin and Death).
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
An so Paul is moving back and forth in THOSE HE IS ADDRESSING - those who know the Law (7:1) - those who have become dead to the Law - those who were alive without the Law - those who died when the commandment came - all the various states people can be in regarding both the LAW like OT Law - and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (which sets us free from the Law of Sin and Death).
DancesWithGnostics
Well-Known Member
By the time Paul wrote Romans - he has BEEN two of the situations,
a Pharisee who had the Law
then later redeemed and under Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus
and he has seen others he tried to preach to that represented the "alive without the Law once"
he preached to Gentiles who did not know the Law, once commenting early in Romans that if they did by nature the things in the Law, they were a Law unto themselves.
Paul addresses ALL of the various stages a person could be in - and speaks of "I" and "me" in some situations where it is NOT literally autobiographical.
Remember that Peter has written of our brother Paul that he says some things that are hard to be understood. I feel that Romans 7 is one area that's hard to be understood - and the Thessalonians passage about the RESTRAINER is hard to be understood.
But this thread makes great progress in understanding the parts of Paul that are hard to be understood - so dont give up - I hope Charismatic Lady is not done with the whole thread. EVERYONE has insightful thoughts on this HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD stuff from our brother Paul.
a Pharisee who had the Law
then later redeemed and under Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus
and he has seen others he tried to preach to that represented the "alive without the Law once"
he preached to Gentiles who did not know the Law, once commenting early in Romans that if they did by nature the things in the Law, they were a Law unto themselves.
Paul addresses ALL of the various stages a person could be in - and speaks of "I" and "me" in some situations where it is NOT literally autobiographical.
Remember that Peter has written of our brother Paul that he says some things that are hard to be understood. I feel that Romans 7 is one area that's hard to be understood - and the Thessalonians passage about the RESTRAINER is hard to be understood.
But this thread makes great progress in understanding the parts of Paul that are hard to be understood - so dont give up - I hope Charismatic Lady is not done with the whole thread. EVERYONE has insightful thoughts on this HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD stuff from our brother Paul.
DancesWithGnostics
Well-Known Member
Rom 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Very, very hard to understand, if you ask me. It ends up contrasting NOUS and SARX.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Very, very hard to understand, if you ask me. It ends up contrasting NOUS and SARX.
The remedy to this quandary is found in Luke 9:23.
I've found that as I've walked this out, it becomes clearer.
I've found that as I've walked this out, it becomes clearer.
2nd Timothy Group
Well-Known Member
Hello Soul Man!
I'm glad that you asked that question. Many others ask that same question, and I clear it up without a doubt, yet no one has ascended to this Truth. Here it is again with the NLT translation so that when you use your Bible of choice, it'll be more clear:
Romans 2:28-29 NLT - "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."
A True Jew is a True Christian. A True Christian is a True Jew. There are only two True types of people who walk this planet . . . those whose Hearts have been Spiritually Circumcised by Christ, and those whose Hearts have not been lifted, or Purified, of the Sinful Nature, the Curse of Adam and Eve. Those who have been relieved of the Curse of Adam and Eve, are the humans who will receive Eternal Life. Those who do not lift their Hearts to Christ for Purification are the humans who are bound to the Eternal Pit.
Anyone whose Heart has been changed will literally be a new person in mind and in character. A True Jew [will] change. A True Christian [will] change. Anyone who does not change is not a Child of God. Follow this path of Scripture to see how our Faith "works." Again, use your own translation as I provide them (below) in the NLT translation for ease of understanding.
Remove My Sinful Nature, Lord - Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
Grant Unto Me a New, Divine Nature, Lord - 2 Peter 1:4 NLT - "And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires."
My Old Life is Gone, My New Life Begins - 2 Corinthians 5:13-21 NLT - "If it seems we are crazy, it is to bring glory to God. And if we are in our right minds, it is for your benefit. 14 Either way, Christ's love controls us. Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life. 15 He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them. 16 So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now! 17 This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun! 18 And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. 19 For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. 20 So we are Christ's ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, "Come back to God!" 21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ."
I Will Reflect Your Glory With Increasing Measure - 2 Corinthians 3:14-18 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image."
Free and Reborn of God, I Possess no Pattern of Sin - 1 John 3:8-10 NLT - "But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God."
As you can see, it is clear that a changed Heart, which is the Work of the Spirit, is proven by our ability to Love each other in a Godly way. To Love others rightly, this Love can only come through a Circumcised Heart, the Holy Operation of Faith performed only by Jesus Christ, our Lord, and Savior. How does Jesus save us? It is so clear . . . and it is so unfortunate that virtually no pastor is teaching what I have clearly presented to you today. Check out the Work of Christ . . . as no pastor gives credit to Jesus for this amazing "Work."
Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."
Do not ignore the NLT translation, for I assure you that it says essentially the same things as your favorite translation of choice.
Billy Evmur
Active Member
Billy Evmur
Active Member
But we can only succeed in this race until we get it into our heads that the race has already been run and the victory won on our behalf.
We fight the good fight, not against sin, but the good fight of faith. The faith to BELIEVE that we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us and has given Himself for us.
Billy Evmur
Active Member
It is easy to understand ... none of the verses you quote could possibly be Paul the apostle but they do describe Saul of Tarsus perfectly [whether taught by Gamaliel or not.]
Billy Evmur
Active Member
Yes that's exactly what you need, to beat your flesh to keep it subject ... instead you are trying to do in the flesh what can only be accomplished by the blood of the Lamb.
This is what the flesh does, the more you examine it the more you will see this is pride.
The only remedy given anywhere in scripture for sin is the blood of Christ.
The only alternative is to go back to keeping the commandments, that is a disaster for the commandments only give power to sin.
The temptation comes [as you say] and the commandment comes "thou shalt not do it" you say "I want to" the commandment says "no"
And BANG you are doing it.
The great attraction of any sin is doing something forbidden and hoping to get away with it. Once you take the law out of the equation the attraction is gone.
Paul said "I can do all things but all things are not helpful"
Your method of struggling against sin will keep your mind earthbound instead of heavenward.
101G
Well-Known Member
Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this.
#1. I agree that the remedy is the blood of christ, for "SIN".
#2. May we submit another remedy also. the covering of Sin(s). 1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
so again God covers our sins as he did in the garden when Adam sin. Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Was Paul calling attention to his own flaws or errors or to the ideal, to Jesus the One who had in his flesh walked the walk and talked the talk to the end of his course as a man without sin?
Paul warned us about looking at other men, did he not? Did that not include even Paul, himself?
"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1
If we were to see Paul stumble or our current leader or teacher or pastor stumble, should we go ahead and follow him into a ditch? Jesus provides the only flawless example. He is our measuring stick rather than any other man.
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101G
Well-Known Member
Amen, Practice make perfect......like the apostle said, Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."
Philippians 3:13 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,"
Philippians 3:14 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Philippians 3:13 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,"
Philippians 3:14 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
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