Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

[Billy Evmur]

I smell Calvinism.

I have never read Calvin, I have very serious problems with Calvin [TULIP]

Why do you say you smell Calvin when I quote the apostle Paul?

 

[Behold]

I hear everything you're saying. I really do. In fact, what you've well-written above, I held those beliefs too. I get it; I totally get it and don't blame you. However, once I discovered the Doctrine of Spiritual Circumcision, the ENTIRE Bible changed within an instant . . .

Im not a Hyper Calvinist.
I understand that you can't "believe" unless you have the right to do it.
Its the right of choice, which is free will, that God accepts as Faith or accepts as Christ rejection.

Everyone who ends up in heaven, chose it.
Everyone who ends up in hell, chose it.

God said..>"let us make man in OUR Image"... So, if man does not have freewill, then God also does not have freewill.

 

[Behold]

I'm sorry my friend, but there are some serious misunderstandings taking place, here. You're a smart person . . . a good thinker for sure. And more, I wish I could sit and talk and listen and learn from you. I would get on to the Blueletterbible website and begin doing a basic search with these words together, and it won't be long before you see that you're taking things out of context. We can't do that. I don't have the time, right now, to pull together the verses. But I am confident that with the Blueletterbible search engine, you'll see what I mean.

God said. "lets us make man in OUR Image".. = "Image" means, "like us'... or "in our likeness"..
So, if Man does not have freewill, God does not have freewill.
Bottomline.

See, if you teach that man does not have freewill, then you are teaching that God has no freewill.

Be careful regarding what you teach, or you can find yourself at odds with God while totally convinced you are serving Him..

 

[Behold]

I will consider what you said, but not that I believe it. Thanks for your help though, much appreciated. I found that praying to God alleviated my sin.

God is good all the time.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The title of this thread, "Freewill the Devil's Greatest Trick" is one of those grand expressions of opinion that lack substance and reek of emotive exaggeration.

There is no logic to the quote above that in essence claims the death penalty for Adam and Eve disobeying God's instruction not to partake of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil makes freewill impossible.

In contrast there is a clear path of logic and reasoning that links Adam and Eve's eating forbidden fruit to their guilt for doing so, otherwise any penalty for their doing so would be unjust. Rather than prove freewill is impossible, as the OP mistakenly suggests, the penalising of Adam and Eve's act of disobedience proves and reinforces God's provision of freewill and self-volition in His human Creation.

If you forbid somebody you are not giving them freewill, the sanction of death is what gives strength to the veto, without the sanction the veto would be meaningless. By deceiving mankind into believing that the threat of death was a lie the veto lost it's power and gave mankind the ILLUSION of freewill. Freewill is still an illusion and it still leads to sin even among christians [do christians struggle with sin?]

Get it firmly fixed into your mind that sin is a no no with God and continuence in it will bring death [physical] then you will have a different mind towards sin.

The illusion of freewill brings you into the debate zone, a place to which the devil loves to take us, he always wins, it is his ground.
it goes like this

Temptation comes instead of lining up with God and saying "NO" we stop and consider, "mebbe it will be ok, it is just a little nibble of forbidden fruit, mebbe I will get away with it"

And BANG you are doing it.

Freewill puts the blame for sin squarely upon God. You hear people say "if God didn't want me to sin He shouldn't have given me freewill"
If you give your kids freewill and they go and smash up the neighbourhood YOU are to blame.

I do not say that man does not have a will, I am saying it is not free. A & E were free, but they sold us into bondage. They might have resisted Satan, but we cannot. We are born in sin and shapen in iniquity, we sin according to the sin nature we have inherited and we also die.

Only Jesus Christ can set us FREE.

 

[Billy Evmur]

God said. "lets us make man in OUR Image".. = "Image" means, "like us'... or "in our likeness"..
So, if Man does not have freewill, God does not have freewill.
Bottomline.

See, if you teach that man does not have freewill, then you are teaching that God has no freewill.

Be careful regarding what you teach, or you can find yourself at odds with God while totally convinced you are serving Him..

Uh uh ... we are no longer born in God's image, A & Eve were created in God's image, we are born in Adams fallen image.

 

[Billy Evmur]

God cannot and will not save anyone from eternal death, who does not want* to be saved.
John 3:16-18

*Free will

"God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure"

 

[Behold]

Exactly.

Being dead in trespasses and sins does not mean an incapacity to hear the word of God, but without it leading us to faith we are actually children of wrath...so much for unchangeable predestination there...while fortuitously the Word of God is living and active, in essence irresistible grace is only irresistible to those who don’t resist it, having no will or desire to resist it as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives.

The Elect, are predestined to be conformed into the Image of Christ.

Faith Elects you to this end result.

All that call on the Name of Jesus shall be SAVED is the ELECTiON that has a predestined or predetermined END = "conformed into the image of Christ".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I figured that was where you were headed with this.

To be clear, you believe in predestination?

Predestination is real

the question is what view of predestination do you hold,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure"

Yep

and some of us do not do what he wants, just like Israel, who he continually wanted to gather as a mother hen and put them under his wing, but they were unwilling.

as a loving father we have plans and goals and all kinds of things we want for our kids, it does not mean they will agree with every one of these plans and do all of them

a loving father loves them anyway

 

[Behold]

"God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure"

What about the Unbelievers?
Does He "will in them also" to do His good pleasure?
Really?

The NT says that the Holy Spirit DRAWS you.......He convicts the conscience..= where freewill exists...
Jesus said that if He is "LIFTED UP"< on the CROSS = He will draw all men to Himself.

So, why is it that if ALL MEN are drawn to the Cross, according to Jesus....not all men trust Christ and are born again?

A.) FREE WILL = Choice.

 

[Grailhunter]

Thank you! May our Gracious, Forgiving Father grant you the most amazing of Blessings.

Ya that ain't going to work....lol

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

See, if you teach that man does not have freewill, then you are teaching that God has no freewill.

This is a very interesting teaching. Thanks, but we're done. You'll need to harass someone else.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Uh uh ... we are no longer born in God's image, A & Eve were created in God's image, we are born in Adams fallen image.

These two are agitators. I had to put them on the Ignore list, as they are not here to learn from anyone, but instead are bent to cause problems.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But this speaks of us letting God work in us. Not seeing any connection.

Only suggesting “let” doesn’t necessarily support freewill choice (imo), but also could be “God spoke” and there was light. by authority “God spoke” and the Light obeyed. Is there really No connection to Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God? My sheep hear my voice and follow Me?

“He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says” is this men’s choice in letting “hear what the Spirit says” just because of the “let him hear” what the Spirit says? What I hear is not a choice but a spoken Word of power in “let”!it be over all creation “let” as in “Let there be Light” and “I am the Light”.
1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

no connection to God spoke “Let there be Light” and there was Light? Because of and for God spoke And Light was brought forth. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Hebrews 10:21-24 And having an high priest over the house of God; [22] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. [23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised [24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:28-29 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1 John 4:6-7 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. [7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

 

[Behold]

This is a very interesting teaching. Thanks, but we're done. You'll need to harass someone else.

If realty harasses you, then that could be a problem for you in the future.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

God said. "lets us make man in OUR Image".. = "Image" means, "like us'... or "in our likeness"..
So, if Man does not have freewill, God does not have freewill.
Bottomline.

See, if you teach that man does not have freewill, then you are teaching that God has no freewill.

It is good point you make. Maybe I misunderstand “freewill” the right to choose. Isn’t that what the world is raging about now. Not to be governed or restrained by anything or anyone? So you brought up an excellent question or point. Does God have freewill as man tells it? I’m stumped there because again maybe my definition of free choice is distorted. Sounds like governed by self In making a (THE)choice. Do not see God as confusion but as sound with self control and restraint in He is long suffering and patient. The opposite of no order and chaos but of order and never changing, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Hebrews 6:16-18 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. [17] Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: [18] That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

The question then is does God have restraint, is God governed by Himself and by Himself is it impossible for God to lie. An oath by none greater.

instead of self willed, trucebreaker, covenant breakers, peace breakers, lovers of chaos and confusion and unrest and darkness more than Light.
Self willed, self governed ...willful
2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;


Is God lawlessness? Is God not governed or restrained ...not even His wrath being restrained by (Himself) the love of Christ?
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

 

[Grailhunter]

The Elect, are predestined to be conformed into the Image of Christ.

Faith Elects you to this end result.

All that call on the Name of Jesus shall be SAVED is the ELECTiON that has a predestined or predetermined END = "conformed into the image of Christ".

Behold, I am only going to say this 150 times!
It all double talk!
It is wrong and evil thinking.
Elect...ahhh! Do you think you are special from among Christian?
If God knew how it was all going to turn out and made no changes, then it is not predestination. No need to predestinate.
This theology is an attempt to deceive. An attempt to edify people that think they are special.
It is a religion of lies! But people escape those lies and tell of the treachery that lays beneath, in league with the devil.
And I have put a few of them in jail myself.

 

[Renniks]

Only suggesting “let” doesn’t necessarily support freewill choice (imo), but also could be “God spoke” and there was light. by authority “God spoke” and the Light obeyed. Is there really No connection to Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God? My sheep hear my voice and follow Me?

“He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says” is this men’s choice in letting “hear what the Spirit says” just because of the “let him hear” what the Spirit says?

Of course.

What I hear is not a choice but a spoken Word of power in “let”!it be over all creation “let” as in “Let there be Light” and “I am the Light”.
1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

no connection to God spoke “Let there be Light” and there was Light? Because of and for God spoke And Light was brought forth. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Hebrews 10:21-24 And having an high priest over the house of God; [22] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. [23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised [24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:28-29 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1 John 4:6-7 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. [7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Um..yeah seems like you proved my point. Being " of God " is a choice we make.

 

[Renniks]

It is good point you make. Maybe I misunderstand “freewill” the right to choose. Isn’t that what the world is raging about now. Not to be governed or restrained by anything or anyone?

Of course we are restrained by circumstances to one degree or another. Freedom is never absolute. But we do make legitimate choices that cause things to happen. That's what we mean by free will. Not that we are little gods.