Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

[VictoryinJesus]

Why would we be told this other than giving us the choice who to let control us? Which can only happen if we have freewill.

But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.

Genesis 1:3 Lexicon: Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

“let there be light” ...freewill because of the “let there be”? He spoke “Let there be Light” and there was light.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

You have been doing this brother you may not think so but you have

Okie Doke.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

how can I be judged for failing to repent If I have no choice?

it comes from God, amen, but I still have to make a choice

the Pharisees saw Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead, they made a choice to still reject him.

as Jesus said, they were unwilling. Willing means choice.

I'm unsure of what the problem is. Apparently, you are of the Elect. You are the result of the Lord's Holy Work! If you are of the Elect, why is it so hard to imagine that the Lord might make people who were made for destruction?

Romans 9:18-24 RSV - "So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

So relax! You are made for Righteousness, and the Lord is bringing you home. And like Scripture says on occasions, "What is it to you" that God does what He does and how He does? It shouldn't matter to anyone if the Lord creates certain people for Holy Destruction. He is the One that is in control. The Lord is the one who knows, fully, what he is doing. Just because we do not understand His Word in how it fits with our own personal agenda, is not the Lord's problem.

It should pain you that God Himself called for those of the Seven Nations to be totally killed and wiped off the face of the earth . . . man, woman, child, animal, and everything else except for the fruit trees that gave fruit. Does it bother you that the Lord created them for their destruction?

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 NKJV - "When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, "and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them [and] utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them."

How about the fact that God predicted that He would cause Israel to cook, hide, and consume their own children? Did they have a choice?

Deuteronomy 28:53-57 NIV - "Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you--so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot--will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities."

But they couldn't obey! Why? Because not only is Israel under the Curse of Adam and Eve, which naturally issues confusion and an inability to be Righteous, but they were placed under an additional sleep so that they absolutely could not obey! It is astounding, but this is what the Lord has done. We cannot deny it. It is the Scriptures.

Isaiah 29:10 NIV - "The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep: He has sealed your eyes (the prophets); he has covered your heads (the seers)."

Paul confirms this but adds the body is Israel to those who were obviously placed into this additional sleep (lest we forget how the Benjamites gang-raped a woman until she died. Imagine that . . . that is some serious "sleep" that the Lord placed them into.

Romans 11:8-11 KJV - 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And as the text clearly states, the Lord put them into this Sleep for a Holy Purpose, and that is to fulfill His Holy Plan right before all of our eyes. God placed them into this sleep so that the Gentiles would be brought "in" to the Plan of God. This caused the Blessed Jews to become Jealous.

Again . . . don't judge me. Judge the obvious Scriptures. And by the way, I can offer story after story after story. The entire Bible is filled with the Lord being in control of people, places, things, and all events. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm unsure of what the problem is. Apparently, you are of the Elect. You are the result of the Lord's Holy Work! If you are of the Elect, why is it so hard to imagine that the Lord might make people who were made for destruction?

because then God is not the God of love he proclaims himself to be, he is a respecter of persons, and he is the creator of evil, who will judge people who never had an Oportunity for salvation and commuting sins in which that had no choice but to commit because they were born dead and had no choice.

I mean think about it, my sister can not come to Christ because God will not let her and I am supposed to praise God about that?

no I will not praise God for that, I will call him out for it,

Romans 9:18-24 RSV - "So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

The fatalistic translation of Romans 9 is in error, if you would look at the argument Paul is trying to make, you would not come to the conclusion you have come to. So I can not buy your reasoning here

So relax! You are made for Righteousness, and the Lord is bringing you home.

I am totally relaxed, I know what God has done, he began a good work in me and he will continue it until the day of Christ

that’s not what I disagree with, it may help if you stop assuming things, like me being offended, feeling judged or not relaxed, your wrong on all three accounts,

And like Scripture says on occasions, "What is it to you" that God does what He does and how He does? It shouldn't matter to anyone if the Lord creates certain people for Holy Destruction. He is the One that is in control. The Lord is the one who knows, fully, what he is doing. Just because we do not understand His Word in how it fits with our own personal agenda, is not the Lord's problem.

It should pain you that God Himself called for those of the Seven Nations to be totally killed and wiped off the face of the earth . . . man, woman, child, animal, and everything else except for the fruit trees that gave fruit. Does it bother you that the Lord created them for their destruction?

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 NKJV - "When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, "and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them [and] utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them."

How about the fact that God predicted that He would cause Israel to cook, hide, and consume their own children? Did they have a choice?

Deuteronomy 28:53-57 NIV - "Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you--so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot--will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities."

But they couldn't obey! Why? Because not only is Israel under the Curse of Adam and Eve, which naturally issues confusion and an inability to be Righteous, but they were placed under an additional sleep so that they absolutely could not obey! It is astounding, but this is what the Lord has done. We cannot deny it. It is the Scriptures.

Isaiah 29:10 NIV - "The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep: He has sealed your eyes (the prophets); he has covered your heads (the seers)."

Paul confirms this but adds the body is Israel to those who were obviously placed into this additional sleep (lest we forget how the Benjamites gang-raped a woman until she died. Imagine that . . . that is some serious "sleep" that the Lord placed them into.

Romans 11:8-11 KJV - 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And as the text clearly states, the Lord put them into this Sleep for a Holy Purpose, and that is to fulfill His Holy Plan right before all of our eyes. God placed them into this sleep so that the Gentiles would be brought "in" to the Plan of God. This caused the Blessed Jews to become Jealous.

Again . . . don't judge me. Judge the obvious Scriptures. And by the way, I can offer story after story after story. The entire Bible is filled with the Lord being in control of people, places, things, and all events. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy!

I am not judging you I am judging your interpretation of scripture,

the lord is in total control I do not reject that again you assume things about me which are not true, please STOP! Because as long as you continue any conversation we have is meaningless.

My God is so powerful he knows all, including things which never happened, but would have happened if something else did. Hats how he can use free will men to do what he need done

again, Pharoah did what pharaoh wanted, God did not force him to send his army to their death, he chose to send them there. Because he truly thought they would win

if you God has to force people to,do things to get his will done as it appears you are saying, well then to me that is a weakness not a strength and falls right into satans lie about God and who he is,

 

[Renniks]

If anyone who calls themselves a "Christian," but clearly is trying to belittle you . . . don't be offended by them, for they are confused and lost. Their position is not one of True Christianity but of the Devil.

I don't judge those who do this as unbelievers. That's not my call. Only God knows their hearts and struggles. If someone is angered by my theology being different, because they don't accept free will and I do, I tend to find it amusing these days. Because they are fighting against something that can't exist in their theology.

 

[Renniks]

Scripture is clear that the ability to Repent comes from God. It does not come by human choice, but by the Power of God to cause us to think in a specific way.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 NKJV - "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and [that] they may come to their senses [and escape] the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to [do] his will."

Notice in the end having been granted the ability to repent, this ability leads to doing the will of the Lord. We are given the ability to do good works. That's what Scripture clearly teaches. They're the Words of the Bible, not my own.

Ephesians 2:10 NIV - "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Honestly, I don't know why I continue to post such obvious Scripture.

Of course the ability to repent comes from God. Why would this indicate that we don't have freedom? He convicts and we repent, or not. The very fact that the verse says " perhaps" tells me God acts according to the heart condition of the person. If someone is in opposition, he has to have a will of his own. You keep quoting verses that don't make sense if God is controlling everything.

Do we do all the good God has prepared for us to do? Or do we have to ability to decide to comply or rebel?

 

[Renniks]

Genesis 1:3 Lexicon: Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

“let there be light” ...freewill because of the “let there be”? He spoke “Let there be Light” and there was light.

But this speaks of us letting God work in us. Not seeing any connection.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

because then God is not the God of love he proclaims himself to be, he is a respecter of persons, and he is the creator of evil, who will judge people who never had an Opportunity for salvation and commuting sins in which that had no choice but to commit because they were born dead and had no choice.

Alright alright . . . I can't continue down this fruitless road. You clearly do not understand the Word and God and you're not showing a willingness to learn. I'm going to have to stop this. I wish you my best and I'll see you in the next thread. I'm unfollowing!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Alright alright . . . I can't continue down this fruitless road. You clearly do not understand the Word and God and you're not showing a willingness to learn. I'm going to have to stop this. I wish you my best and I'll see you in the next thread. I'm unfollowing!

And your not judging people and were saying I was the problem. Thanks for showing who really has an issue with pride

good day sir. I do not wish to discuss this with a person who thinks he knows it all. It is fruitless

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

And your not judging people and were saying I was the problem. Thanks for showing who really has an issue with pride

good day sir. I do not wish to discuss this with a person who thinks he knows it all. It is fruitless

I understand. May the Lord grant you the most amazing of Blessings and Promises!

 

[Stumpmaster]

If we don't have freewill, then God has no right to hold us accountable for rejecting Christ.

Exactly.

Being dead in trespasses and sins does not mean an incapacity to hear the word of God, but without it leading us to faith we are actually children of wrath...so much for unchangeable predestination there...while fortuitously the Word of God is living and active, in essence irresistible grace is only irresistible to those who don’t resist it, having no will or desire to resist it as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives.

 

[DNB]

Do you accept the translations of the Jews themselves? Do you think that they are the masters of their own writings? If so, they transcribe Job 36:31 this way . . .

Tanakh: "By these things He controls peoples; He gives food in abundance."

I just relay what I see in the Bible (all of them).

That's what your thesis is based on, one out-of-context verse?

 

[Earburner]

The bible says we are born again not by the flesh nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God, so why claim it was our freewill?

God cannot and will not save anyone from eternal death, who does not want* to be saved.
John 3:16-18

*Free will

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm unsure of what the problem is. Apparently, you are of the Elect. You are the result of the Lord's Holy Work! If you are of the Elect, why is it so hard to imagine that the Lord might make people who were made for destruction?

Romans 9:18-24 RSV - "So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

So relax! You are made for Righteousness, and the Lord is bringing you home. And like Scripture says on occasions, "What is it to you" that God does what He does and how He does? It shouldn't matter to anyone if the Lord creates certain people for Holy Destruction. He is the One that is in control. The Lord is the one who knows, fully, what he is doing. Just because we do not understand His Word in how it fits with our own personal agenda, is not the Lord's problem.

It should pain you that God Himself called for those of the Seven Nations to be totally killed and wiped off the face of the earth . . . man, woman, child, animal, and everything else except for the fruit trees that gave fruit. Does it bother you that the Lord created them for their destruction?

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 NKJV - "When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, "and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them [and] utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them."

How about the fact that God predicted that He would cause Israel to cook, hide, and consume their own children? Did they have a choice?

Deuteronomy 28:53-57 NIV - "Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you--so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot--will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities."

But they couldn't obey! Why? Because not only is Israel under the Curse of Adam and Eve, which naturally issues confusion and an inability to be Righteous, but they were placed under an additional sleep so that they absolutely could not obey! It is astounding, but this is what the Lord has done. We cannot deny it. It is the Scriptures.

Isaiah 29:10 NIV - "The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep: He has sealed your eyes (the prophets); he has covered your heads (the seers)."

Paul confirms this but adds the body is Israel to those who were obviously placed into this additional sleep (lest we forget how the Benjamites gang-raped a woman until she died. Imagine that . . . that is some serious "sleep" that the Lord placed them into.

Romans 11:8-11 KJV - 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And as the text clearly states, the Lord put them into this Sleep for a Holy Purpose, and that is to fulfill His Holy Plan right before all of our eyes. God placed them into this sleep so that the Gentiles would be brought "in" to the Plan of God. This caused the Blessed Jews to become Jealous.

Again . . . don't judge me. Judge the obvious Scriptures. And by the way, I can offer story after story after story. The entire Bible is filled with the Lord being in control of people, places, things, and all events. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy!

In the military when you are being court martialed you do not get sentenced....you are awarded prison because you earned it.
You are putting a lot of effort into trying to prove God is Satan or a monster. You will deserve what you get...you worked for it.

 

[Earburner]

“whosoever” will ...without His Spirit man can do nothing. ...can do nothing.
2 Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing (have no power) against the truth, but [only](given power) for the truth.


did Christ not teach one must be born again and that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit? And the carnal man not born of Spirit receives not the things which of God? Pause, Consider...

that born (comes forth out from) flesh is flesh.
That born (comes forth out from) Spirit is Spirit.
Then why does the natural man insists over and over that which comes forth of God is born of flesh instead being of born of Spirit; born of the power of God and not men.

See KJV- Matthew 3:8,11
No one can be born again of His Holy Spirit, until they come to repentence* towards God.

* Textus Receptus Greek- μετάνοιαν- metanoia.
Not metanoeo, which is repentance from sin.

 

[Stumpmaster]

What makes freewill impossible is the penalty for non obedience i.e. death. When the devil said "you will not die you will be like God ..." He not only made God out to be a liar but he tricked them into believing they had freewill.

The title of this thread, "Freewill the Devil's Greatest Trick" is one of those grand expressions of opinion that lack substance and reek of emotive exaggeration.

There is no logic to the quote above that in essence claims the death penalty for Adam and Eve disobeying God's instruction not to partake of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil makes freewill impossible.

In contrast there is a clear path of logic and reasoning that links Adam and Eve's eating forbidden fruit to their guilt for doing so, otherwise any penalty for their doing so would be unjust. Rather than prove freewill is impossible, as the OP mistakenly suggests, the penalising of Adam and Eve's act of disobedience proves and reinforces God's provision of freewill and self-volition in His human Creation.

 

[TheslightestID]

Whom God knew He also predestinated ...

I figured that was where you were headed with this.

To be clear, you believe in predestination?

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

I smell Calvinism.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

In the military when you are being court martialed you do not get sentenced....you are awarded prison because you earned it.
You are putting a lot of effort into trying to prove God is Satan or a monster. You will deserve what you get...you worked for it.

Thank you! May our Gracious, Forgiving Father grant you the most amazing of Blessings.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I figured that was where you were headed with this.

To be clear, you believe in predestination?

Isaiah 34:15-17 NIV - "The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation."