How should Christians with the freeze response to trauma relate to Dt 22:23-27? (Trigger Warning)

[DuckieLady]

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Freeze Response
"Compared with other types of trauma (e.g., war, motor vehicle accidents), tonic immobility is more frequent and severe in cases of (childhood and adult) sexual violence [2]. For survivors of sexual violence, tonic immobility is “an involuntary response to an inescapable threat” [3]. Women are also more likely to experience tonic immobility during a sexual assault if they have a previous history of sexual violence, in childhood or adulthood. [4]

A survivor who does not outwardly appear to resist a perpetrator by physically fighting, saying ‘no,’ and/or yelling for help will often be judged by friends, family, and systems responders (e.g., justice system, health services) who lack training on trauma. Survivors who experience tonic immobility may experience more victim-blaming when disclosing and/or reporting sexual violence. Survivors may also be more likely to blame themselves for not actively, outwardly resisting."
-The ‘Freeze’ Response to Sexual Violence

This response can also happen in non-violent situations.

 

[Mayflower]

Hard verse. This article was helpful:

Five things worth knowing about the woman in the city who ‘did not cry out’. On Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (and 25-27)

Quote from article:

Tamar cried out for help in the city, but after she was raped.

So, whilst the ‘crying out’ of Deuteronomy 22:23-24 could be about preventing rape, much more significantly, it’s the woman going public. She wouldn’t do that if she was consensually having an adulterous affair — and I reckon affairs are what this law is really aiming at.



-and I do believe this has to do more with social order/affairs. If a woman was able, tonic immobility or freezing wouldn't be part of the equation here I do not think. I just know God is close to the broken hearted, and like with the story of Tamar, she was not blamed even though she didn't cry out before she was raped. So it probably means different then how the verse sounds.

 

[DuckieLady]

Hard verse. This article was helpful:

Five things worth knowing about the woman in the city who ‘did not cry out’. On Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (and 25-27)

Quote from article:

Tamar cried out for help in the city, but after she was raped.

So, whilst the ‘crying out’ of Deuteronomy 22:23-24 could be about preventing rape, much more significantly, it’s the woman going public. She wouldn’t do that if she was consensually having an adulterous affair — and I reckon affairs are what this law is really aiming at.



-and I do believe this has to do more with social order/affairs. If a woman was able, tonic immobility or freezing wouldn't be part of the equation here I do not think. I just know God is close to the broken hearted, and like with the story of Tamar, she was not blamed even though she didn't cry out before she was raped. So it probably means different then how the verse sounds.

It is a really hard one, which is why I came back ... I can't figure this one out myself! And TBH, it irritates me a little bit. One of the things about Tamar though is it's hard to relate to that story, seeing that she also fought off her stepbrother (? Is that right? Going off memory.) so she didn't really have a freeze response.

Difficult to understand how God views things that are sort of gray area, too, where survivors of repeated abuse might just shut down overall in similar situations that are not violent or threatening, but the person is just incapable of response/speaking and disassociates. (Feeling like they're out of their body, going limp, etc) I don't personally feel like the Biblical understanding is fair in response to these things. I would like to change my mind, but I haven't been able to.

 

[Mayflower]

It is a really hard one, which is why I came back ... I can't figure this one out myself! And TBH, it irritates me a little bit. One of the things about Tamar though is it's hard to relate to that story, seeing that she also fought off her stepbrother (? Is that right? Going off memory.) so she didn't really have a freeze response.

Difficult to understand how God views things that are sort of gray area, too, where survivors of repeated abuse might just shut down overall in similar situations that are not violent or threatening, but the person is just incapable of response/speaking and disassociates. (Feeling like they're out of their body, going limp, etc) I don't personally feel like the Biblical understanding is fair in response to these things. I would like to change my mind, but I haven't been able to.

A lot of it was man made law also I think.

 

[Cristo Rei]

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Freeze Response
"Compared with other types of trauma (e.g., war, motor vehicle accidents), tonic immobility is more frequent and severe in cases of (childhood and adult) sexual violence [2]. For survivors of sexual violence, tonic immobility is “an involuntary response to an inescapable threat” [3]. Women are also more likely to experience tonic immobility during a sexual assault if they have a previous history of sexual violence, in childhood or adulthood. [4]

A survivor who does not outwardly appear to resist a perpetrator by physically fighting, saying ‘no,’ and/or yelling for help will often be judged by friends, family, and systems responders (e.g., justice system, health services) who lack training on trauma. Survivors who experience tonic immobility may experience more victim-blaming when disclosing and/or reporting sexual violence. Survivors may also be more likely to blame themselves for not actively, outwardly resisting."
-The ‘Freeze’ Response to Sexual Violence

This response can also happen in non-violent situations.

Oh ok so that really is a response to trauma. I thought so...

I understand what you are saying but how is anyone supposed to know if she consented to sex or if she was raped?

 

[DuckieLady]

Oh ok so that really is a response to trauma. I thought so...

I understand what you are saying but how is anyone supposed to know if she consented to sex or if she was raped?

Well, more speaking about modern times today and these are the scriptures that a person who suffered sexual abuse might go over and then for someone with a freeze response wouldn't relate to at all - especially if there was a situation that wouldn't be technically defined as rape but shutting down and not being able to respond in order to say no. That could happen as a result of previous sexual abuse and not wanting to reciprocate.

(Which in that case, in my opinion, the other person is not entirely at fault, but seems to put the freeze person in a place of needing to repent sin that they were not internally willing to commit, which makes it even more traumatic. Depending on their values.)

 

[Cristo Rei]

Well, more speaking about modern times today and these are the scriptures that a person who suffered sexual abuse might go over and then for someone with a freeze response wouldn't relate to at all - especially if there was a situation that wouldn't be technically defined as rape but shutting down and not being able to respond in order to say no. That could happen as a result of previous sexual abuse and not wanting to reciprocate.

(Which in that case, in my opinion, the other person is not entirely at fault, but seems to put the freeze person in a place of needing to repent sin that they were not internally willing to commit, which makes it even more traumatic. Depending on their values.)

Not to mention PTSD which will haunt them for the rest of their lives whenever they recall the incident...
Trauma is one of those things that is not understood very well as with all mental conditions and is generally downplayed by most people...

I think many people are experiencing a type of trauma today. Covid trauma. Its innocuous and most people won't even realize it until later in life when they develop PTSD. It may sound strange but I never thought I was experiencing trauma when I was. I don't think a soldier knows he's experiencing trauma either...


I've had a good think about rape in the past, well before the whole "me too" thing... It's hard to prove rape beyond reasonable doubt...
There aren't usually any other witnesses. Finding a man's sperm proves that a sexual act did occur but it doesn't prove rape...

It's hard to prove. So I thought what should a girl do?
Firstly she has to report it to the cops ASAP. The longer that takes the less chance the cops will have and to be honest, it looks really suspicious when someone comes out years later calling rape.

Secondly, she has to physically and verbally resist and fight back... Someone might hear her and call the cops, it might spook him causing him to flee much like an alarm would spook a burglar... But if all that fails she will have evidence of a struggle on her body like bruises...

I think evidence of a struggle is good evidence though it can still be exploited. Iv seen videos of people inflicting self-harm in order to use that as evidence for a crime that never occurred...


Just thinking now, many girls might call rape after a long time because they have memories of a bad encounter, a traumatizing encounter...
But does trauma mean it was rape? And how would a guy even know he was raping her if she says nothing?

Anyway, the punishment for rape has always been one of the toughest along with murder. That's extreme. Add to that the fact that a rapist is hated amongst criminals. He will get flogged in prison or go into solitary to prevent getting flogged. We hate the thought of the women we love being raped...


But a big problem has been developing for a while and it peaked with the "me too" movement and "believe all women"
Now she only has to say the word and he's locked up, even if its 20 years later...
That is totally wrong cos some women will make false claims to get back at someone.
A prison sentence is hell on earth. Someone should only be sent there if it is proven beyond reasonable doubt

 

[Deborah_]

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Freeze Response
"Compared with other types of trauma (e.g., war, motor vehicle accidents), tonic immobility is more frequent and severe in cases of (childhood and adult) sexual violence [2]. For survivors of sexual violence, tonic immobility is “an involuntary response to an inescapable threat” [3]. Women are also more likely to experience tonic immobility during a sexual assault if they have a previous history of sexual violence, in childhood or adulthood. [4]

A survivor who does not outwardly appear to resist a perpetrator by physically fighting, saying ‘no,’ and/or yelling for help will often be judged by friends, family, and systems responders (e.g., justice system, health services) who lack training on trauma. Survivors who experience tonic immobility may experience more victim-blaming when disclosing and/or reporting sexual violence. Survivors may also be more likely to blame themselves for not actively, outwardly resisting."
-The ‘Freeze’ Response to Sexual Violence

This response can also happen in non-violent situations.

Way back in the Bronze Age (when this law was formulated) it was assumed in most societies that the woman was complicit. Adultery had been committed, therefore she was as guilty as her rapist and both would be executed.
The point of this law is that there may be circumstances where the woman is the victim (seems obvious to us, but it was a revolutionary idea at the time). The scenarios presented are just an example; this is signalled by the fact that the paragraph begins with an "If..." It's not an exhaustive presentation of what should or shouldn't count as evidence, but a prompt to the (invariably male) judge to consider the possibility of rape in every case.

 

[DuckieLady]

Not to mention PTSD which will haunt them for the rest of their lives whenever they recall the incident...

YEP.

Just thinking now, many girls might call rape after a long time because they have memories of a bad encounter, a traumatizing encounter...
But does trauma mean it was rape? And how would a guy even know he was raping her if she says nothing?

I have to say it can't be rape, but that doesn't mean that it's not traumatic. I would say that if she's not responding to advances or reciprocating advances then that should be obvious, but I've considered for some men who struggle with noticing social cues that they aren't aware and shouldn't* be held responsible. I would suggest that nobody is technically at fault except in the eyes of God, and I haven't determined what God would think.

In a freeze situation, I have found myself almost like falling asleep. I can only describe it as "fading out." I didn't feel like I'm in the world anymore. (Like not completely there.) The best way to avoid these things is for people to follow God's commandment and let every man have his own wife and her, her own husband. It shouldn't be outside of marriage, despite the ignorance of societal expectations.

But a big problem has been developing for a while and it peaked with the "me too" movement and "believe all women"
Now she only has to say the word and he's locked up, even if its 20 years later...
That is totally wrong cos some women will make false claims to get back at someone.
A prison sentence is hell on earth. Someone should only be sent there if it is proven beyond reasonable doubt

Part of the reason I said "person" and not "women" was specifically to avoid excluding the men. We focus a lot on the women, but men are also abused. It's just not commonly spoken about and the me too movement (in my opinion) seems to focus more on men being abusers than men having ever been abused. (And sometimes by women!)

But you're right, and I think that's why we have to be careful and acknowledge the difference, to not falsely accused anyone. But what matters most is the eyes of God and not men, and that's difficult when we're trying to determine, when are we truly guilty for a sin that we didn't want? At the time it feels like no control but then later it feels inexcusable.

@Deborah_ I think you mentioned before being in the medical field and if you're comfortable sharing, I'd like to know what you think on that last sentence.

 

[Deborah_]

But you're right, and I think that's why we have to be careful and acknowledge the difference, to not falsely accused anyone. But what matters most is the eyes of God and not men, and that's difficult when we're trying to determine, when are we truly guilty for a sin that we didn't want? At the time it feels like no control but then later it feels inexcusable.

@Deborah_ I think you mentioned before being in the medical field and if you're comfortable sharing, I'd like to know what you think on that last sentence.

Are you saying that the Bible seems to imply that abused women who "freeze" are guilty in God's eyes?

Personally I don't think it does carry that implication, because of the genre. The Mosaic Law contains a mixture of direct moral commands (e.g. "Do not commit adultery") and case law ("If someone has done X, they deserve punishment Y"). The former concerns personal morality, the latter is guidance for judges in deciding legal cases. This particular passage is an example of "case law" - possibly arising out of a particular case. The judge (in those days, probably a village elder) has to look at the evidence and decide if the woman's also guilty. If it seems slightly arbitrary, that's because just one possible discriminator is mentioned. Ancient case law was like that: it gave one example, from which the judge was meant to extrapolate to the situation before him.

I'm a retired doctor but a fairly amateur psychologist. At work we dealt with a lot of rape victims, some of whose stories were more convincing than others - but apportioning blame wasn't in our remit. "Freezing" in such situations is well documented as an automatic, self-protective reflex. It's not voluntary. Then there's the scenario of submission because of a threat of violence (to oneself or someone else). To my mind that's psychological manipulation and part of the abuse. I've recently come across the term "moral injury" which seems to describe it fairly well.

"later it feels inexcusable."
Your own heart condemns you - but "God is greater than our hearts, and He knows everything." (I John 3:20)

 

[Cristo Rei]

In a freeze situation, I have found myself almost like falling asleep. I can only describe it as "fading out." I didn't feel like I'm in the world anymore. (Like not completely there.) The best way to avoid these things is for people to follow God's commandment and let every man have his own wife and her, her own husband. It shouldn't be outside of marriage, despite the ignorance of societal expectations.

I gotta say, u sound like a deep thinker. There isn't many people that have the ability to do an honest self psychoanalysis. I'm impressed. I try and do the same though it hurts when I think about it sometimes I cry. I can't talk to normal people about it cos I tend to get frustrated and snap having to apologize later on. I find that I can only talk to former inmates about it...

Inside I wasn't thinking about the trauma. I was just thinking about God cos without Him the evil one torments. And praise be cos He shielded me from Satan's flaming arrows...

It wasn't till I got out that I lernt more about such things and found examples of my mental state in psychology...

So the freeze situation. Did u notice it and then found it in scientific literature or vice versa?

Cos normally we enter this mental state of "fight or flight". U would of heard of it. But thinking about it, when in danger it is best to keep still in some situations. Snakes and other animals. So that freeze reaction makes sense to me.
Fight or flight or hide. Survival mode. Though we tend to make bad decisions in that state. Need God

Part of the reason I said "person" and not "women" was specifically to avoid excluding the men. We focus a lot on the women, but men are also abused. It's just not commonly spoken about and the me too movement (in my opinion) seems to focus more on men being abusers than men having ever been abused. (And sometimes by women!)

Funny u should mention that. U know more men get raped than women... When you include the prison population... But nothing is done about it cos no one cares about them apart from their loved ones... God bless them

Actually... Fluffy yellow duck... Do u like ducks? I love all birds. But did u know that ducks are rapists??? Biggest rapists in the animal kingdom... Gang rapists... LoL look into it if u dare...

But you're right, and I think that's why we have to be careful and acknowledge the difference, to not falsely accused anyone. But what matters most is the eyes of God and not men, and that's difficult when we're trying to determine, when are we truly guilty for a sin that we didn't want? At the time it feels like no control but then later it feels inexcusable.

Amen

 

[Cristo Rei]

I'm a retired doctor

That's handy to know... At least I kind of know where your covid arguments are coming from... It's fair to say u would have a bias towards the medical industry... I can understand that

 

[DuckieLady]

Are you saying that the Bible seems to imply that abused women who "freeze" are guilty in God's eyes?

I did, but I think you cleared that up for me pretty well. Thank you! I appreciate it.

Then there's the scenario of submission because of a threat of violence (to oneself or someone else). To my mind that's psychological manipulation and part of the abuse.

I can see that, and I could also see it being a fear of authority without violence- if that person has a history of being emotionally or verbally abusive, which for me was also the case, but I can't say that I know how much that affected anything. I didn't really think about it until now. But the verbal/emotional abuse drove me enough under and I think that person is probably not mentally right. Things would be normal, until I refused to make a cup of coffee or when asked for something that's out - explain it's not there, instead I'd get back "Can you just hand it to me?" Over and over insisting that I hand them the thing that isn't there. Well, it doesn't exist, they wouldn't accept that, and then the whole day would be destroyed and it would be verbal abuse all day long.

But there was no active threat and it was just me freezing up, I wouldn't consider it being rape. Considering how long it took me just to figure that part out and questioned what it was, I would consider that a lot of men are falsely accused because "freezing" isn't talked about. He could have no idea or just not care enough to pay attention You still feel traumatized, you still feel violated, and in order for a woman to have to accept that it wasn't rape, she would have to take responsibility- so she would feel blamed. It just isn't something talked about.

I think both are severely traumatic. (I've been through both) and BOTH need to be dealt with. And it's just not something women are talked to about. I think people want validation for what they've gone through without the blame and that isn't out there yet. At least not enough.

So the freeze situation. Did u notice it and then found it in scientific literature or vice versa?

I hope you get healing from all of that, Cristo Rei. It takes time. I would have to say honestly that it took years of analyzing to figure it out and trying to figure out who to blame. If you want healing, you have to be entirely honest with yourself.

I think that the first time I heard of it might have been when I started researching C-PTSD, which I think I got over the length of years from adulthood and then I thought "That's me!" (Between the Fawn/Freeze responses.) Especially when it mentioned stuttering/stammering. I picked up stammering from probably the verbal abuse and in cases of confrontation, I just couldn't speak properly. Never had that in my life and then it started all of a sudden in my 30s! I started pairing things together. FindingFreedomMedia really helped me.

Actually... Fluffy yellow duck... Do u like ducks? I love all birds. But did u know that ducks are rapists??? Biggest rapists in the animal kingdom... Gang rapists... LoL look into it if u dare...

I do love ducks but I had never heard of that before!

 

[TLHKAJ]

Those verses aren't referring to childhood sexual abuse. I believe the NT has something to speak to this.

Luke 17:1-2 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¹ Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! ² It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

 

[quietthinker]

It is a really hard one, which is why I came back ... I can't figure this one out myself! And TBH, it irritates me a little bit. One of the things about Tamar though is it's hard to relate to that story, seeing that she also fought off her stepbrother (? Is that right? Going off memory.) so she didn't really have a freeze response.

Difficult to understand how God views things that are sort of gray area, too, where survivors of repeated abuse might just shut down overall in similar situations that are not violent or threatening, but the person is just incapable of response/speaking and disassociates. (Feeling like they're out of their body, going limp, etc) I don't personally feel like the Biblical understanding is fair in response to these things. I would like to change my mind, but I haven't been able to.

Your questions are valid Fluffy. I wish I could explain it. I have wondered about this myself.
Here is some sort of an offering....perhaps there's some validity, perhaps not.....

Men in general are pretty simple minded when it comes to females....simple in many ways.
Women on the other hand seem to have a more developed emotional sense and they use it. Men, on the other hand have often been the recipients of a short stick because of being naive and too trusting.

I married not because of love but because of emotional blackmail but didn't know it at the time.

Women will use sex to gain an advantage. This is as old as mankind. Often both end up with a shorter stick than they had hoped.
The question is, were these laws put in place to limit exploitation?

 

[lilygrace]

a man knows about his girlfriend's history of sexual abuse (but not the true extent) he only knows about this history because he questioned her and accused her of being uptight about suggestions of "making out"
he got her into kissing and touching and she didnt want it and made it clear but she never screamed. while he isnt a criminal cos he never raped anyone, is it still abuse?

 

[DuckieLady]

a man knows about his girlfriend's history of sexual abuse (but not the true extent) he only knows about this history because he questioned her and accused her of being uptight about suggestions of "making out"
he got her into kissing and touching and she didnt want it and made it clear but she never screamed. while he isnt a criminal cos he never raped anyone, is it still abuse?

That's what the freeze response is, @lilygrace ... It causes you to freeze up. If he downright knew, I consider it to be abusive, but to be honest, I think sometimes they're "worked up" they know they don't accept what they know and see it as a challenge or something instead of respecting her feelings. It's just flat out wrong.

But I know from personal experience that for the girl that it is traumatic and confusing. She didn't want it to happen and doesn't understand where to place to the blame or what happened to her. I seriously wish this is something professionals would pay more attention. How can women be treated for something that they might misinterpret or are incapable of understanding?

And sometimes we are incapable because it isn't common knowledge.

 

[lilygrace]

correction, other than saying any disinterest what if the woman would keep pushing him while he was "on her" though. :/

 

[DuckieLady]

correction, other than saying any disinterest what if the woman would keep pushing him while he was "on her" though. :/

pushing him off? that's a clear indicator. that is rape... that counts as physically fighting back and he is guilty.

 

[TLHKAJ]

a man knows about his girlfriend's history of sexual abuse (but not the true extent) he only knows about this history because he questioned her and accused her of being uptight about suggestions of "making out"
he got her into kissing and touching and she didnt want it and made it clear but she never screamed. while he isnt a criminal cos he never raped anyone, is it still abuse?

I know one thing, sis ... it isn't love. He knew her history, he knew she wasn't comfortable with certain things, and yet he still did it ... against her will (which she expressed). It is abuse.