Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

[Mantis]

I would rather be a slave of righteousness to the Lord of life than a slave of shame to the lord of flies.

Our free will is to choose Hell or choose YHWH. This earthly test seems so hard that’s it’s unreal. We are always left with very hard choices and temptations that are almost more than we can handle.

I truly fear that almost everyone I know will end up in hell. People always compare themselves to people who have sinned far worse than they have and they think they’re fine. That’s not the way it works.

Free will, perish or live. I guess it is just the way you look at it.

 

[Behold]

Besides all that Jesus said "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you ..." so why continue to say that we chose Him.

"i have chosen you", = the context is....."if i be lifted up, i will Draw ALL MEN to me"..

So, that is the choosing. The choosing is John 3:16... God gives His Son to the World and AS MANY = as will BELIEVE..... become the chosen.

Also, its Faith that elects you to be predestined to be conformed into the Image of Christ.

Jesus also says that.... "I shall lose none that the Father has given me"".

So, the context is HOW they are Given... And that is the GOSPEL...
See, faith comes by hearing, and this faith, is why God accepts and justifies..
"Faith is counted as Righteousness".

If God was causing you to believe..., then faith would not be necessary, and there would be no need to be justified by Faith.

 

[Behold]

We do not have the image of God since the fall, Adam had freewill we do not we are born in bondage to sin and death.

Jesus is the 2nd Adam, and we are "in Christ", "ONE with God".
To be ONE< is to be the SAME.
This is explained by this verse..

"As Jesus IS....so are the born again, in this world"..

 

[Behold]

We must still work out our own salvation with fear and trembling,

Working out your salvation means that you have it, and you are to learn how to exist within it.

The Legalist believes that working out your salvation, means you are trying to complete what Jesus started on the Cross.

 

[Whetstone]

Working out your salvation means that you have it, and you are to learn how to exist within it.

The Legalist believes that working out your salvation, means you are trying to complete what Jesus started on the Cross.

I read the message differently.

For me, the Bible identifies that a form of salvation is possible, it exists, and it means we do not need to die, and can live forever.
However it is up to us to seek out and find that thing. It is available freely, to all but we must both believe in it and seek it otherwise we shall not find it. Concerning that thing Jesus says:

John 3:56
"Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves."

As with many things in the Bible this is allegorical imo. We do not need to nibble on an actual body nor drink blood like vampires. At the same time it is not sufficient to simply believe in something. If I simply believe in the existence of water yet do not actually get hold of it and drink it, I will surely die.

Jesus's words are for me personally, a stark and clear warning. We MUST eat and we MUST drink something. What that something is, is recounted in the Bible in numerous places, always allegorically and it is the searching and seeking out of that thing that should occupy our focus because without that thing, as Jesus says, "there is no life in us".

The act of seeking requires two distinct actions. First we must set in our minds that which we desire. We must "pray" for what we desire. Then second we must put our heart in a particular state. We must engender in our heart the feelings and emotions that would occur IF that desire had been fulfilled. i.e. we must get our hearts (and thus emotions) into a state as if we already had that thing we desire. This requirement to align the mind and the heart is mentioned all over the Bible. For example:

Jeremiah 29:12-13
"Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. "

Romans 10:1-21
"Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved"

Jeremiah 17:10
"I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. "

Psalms 26:2
"Prove me, O Lord, and try me; test my heart and my mind."

Psalms 19:14
"Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer."

There are I am sure many more examples to be found.

 

[Behold]

I read the message differently.

For me, the Bible identifies that a form of salvation is possible, it exists, and it means we do not need to die, and can live forever.
However it is up to us to seek out and find that thing. It is available freely, to all but we must both believe in it and seek it otherwise we shall not find it. Concerning that thing Jesus says:

.

A form of salvation?
You never explained what you mean by a "form".

Here is how Jesus explains it.. "If you do not believe im the Messiah, you will die in your sins".

Paul explains it like this....>"all that call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

Jesus says..."All that believe in Me, i give unto them Eternal Life".

Jesus then says. '""you MUST be born again".

God then replies with the consequence of not doing it...

"""""All that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and all that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on them all""".

 

[Whetstone]

Again Jesus tells you straight out. You must EAT of the "flesh" and DRINK of the "blood" otherwise there is no life in you.

He says "I will give you meat to the full" and that it is "meat indeed"

Belief is not enough. The belief is simply the part that is needed for you to then go and seek out that which Jesus is referring to. Without that initial belief, faith, that search would not even occur. We would just carry on living normal lives and ultimately die. If a man told you that there was a chest full of gold coins sitting at the bottom of a lake you could either believe it or ignore it. If you believed it then that would spur you into action to go and seek out this treasure and find it. But you would never acquire the richness of that treasure unless you first sought it and then found it. Believing it existed would not equate into actually having it.

Revelation 2:17
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of
the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Psalms 78:24-25:
"And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels' food: he sent
them meat to the full."

 

[Grailhunter]

Yeap it is not extreme to label God with all, all of the characteristic of Satan.
But not Satan just in cahoots with him.
Guaranteeing Satan a quota...the victims! No hope....no escape....Damned before creation....The world...sin pushed on it by God Himself. I call it extreme blasphemy.

 

[David H.]

Romans 12.1-2 is written to christians as christians having been set free and empowered by the Holy Spirit we are able to present our very selves to God a living sacrifice. This was impossible for us to do before we were saved and set free.

while we were yet dead in trespasses and sins God made us alive together with Christ and made us to sit with Him in heavenly places [by grace you have been saved]

You are saying you had the virtue to make this choice the bible says there is no good thing dwelling in us that is in our flesh, and Jesus said you did not choose Him but He chose you, why argue with Him?

We were says Paul chosen in Christ before the world began so how can it have been our choice.

God does not force us to love Him or to obey Him, we don't have the ability to do either everything comes as a gift.

I Agree in part with what you write regarding Romans 12:1-2, The Point being that this comes after salvation.

Paul Writes about how the gentiles had no law were a law unto themselves, and not having the law have the law written on their hearts (See Romans 2:13-14) which contradicts your total depravity of man theory.

What I believe, is unsaved man has a hole in their heart because of sin and the absence of God there from the fall. They seek to fill this hole with all manner of religion and man reaching to God, and they have this desire in them for this void to be filled, But they have not heard the Gospel message.

That is why we are all called to preach the Gospel and salvation is to whosoever will hear, for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17)

Predestination refers to those who believe being chosen to be saints. A Saint is not something we choose to be but are chosen for by the Lord Jesus, Literally Obtained by the divine Lot of God (See definition of the word Legchano in 2 Peter 1:1). This is the great mistake of the reformation, in reacting to the heresies and false veneration of the saints they threw out the baby with the bath water and said all the faithful are the saints, which is not the case, the saints and the faithful are distinct from one another the saints having the high calling of God in their lives and give their testimony much like Job did before the Law, and the saints will eventually fulfill what happens in Revelation 12:10-11.

So salvation comes by hearing and believing as humanity sees the need for Christ when the Gospel is presented them. There is no such thing as total depravity, neither is there such a thing as limited atonement. The Only thing that is limited i who are called to be the saints of the church, which is exclusively God's choice and not man's. That being said all believers are called to follow the path to sainthood, few are chosen to be saints.... Many are called few are chosen. You can read more on this here: Justification, instant sanctification and progressive sanctification and sainthood.. | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board

 

[Billy Evmur]

I Agree in part with what you write regarding Romans 12:1-2, The Point being that this comes after salvation.

Paul Writes about how the gentiles had no law were a law unto themselves, and not having the law have the law written on their hearts (See Romans 2:13-14) which contradicts your total depravity of man theory.

What I believe, is unsaved man has a hole in their heart because of sin and the absence of God there from the fall. They seek to fill this hole with all manner of religion and man reaching to God, and they have this desire in them for this void to be filled, But they have not heard the Gospel message.

That is why we are all called to preach the Gospel and salvation is to whosoever will hear, for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17)

Predestination refers to those who believe being chosen to be saints. A Saint is not something we choose to be but are chosen for by the Lord Jesus, Literally Obtained by the divine Lot of God (See definition of the word Legchano in 2 Peter 1:1). This is the great mistake of the reformation, in reacting to the heresies and false veneration of the saints they threw out the baby with the bath water and said all the faithful are the saints, which is not the case, the saints and the faithful are distinct from one another the saints having the high calling of God in their lives and give their testimony much like Job did before the Law, and the saints will eventually fulfill what happens in Revelation 12:10-11.

So salvation comes by hearing and believing as humanity sees the need for Christ when the Gospel is presented them. There is no such thing as total depravity, neither is there such a thing as limited atonement. The Only thing that is limited i who are called to be the saints of the church, which is exclusively God's choice and not man's. That being said all believers are called to follow the path to sainthood, few are chosen to be saints.... Many are called few are chosen. You can read more on this here: Justification, instant sanctification and progressive sanctification and sainthood.. | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board

Your reference of Romans. 2. is a mis-quote, it says that those who obeyed the law show that they the law WAS written on their hearts ... a work of the Holy Spirit while they were yet unsaved. I do not believe man is totally depraved ... left without God he is, but God does not leave man.

I do believe however that sin has done more damage than you suppose. When God called after Adam "where are you?" it is actually a gracious call to repentance, but Adam fled in terror and hid himself, nothing could be sadder than this. God's greatest task in salvation is winning back man's trust, man's trust that God really does love him and longs for him to be reconciled and to have fellowship once more.

All who are saved are saints, but not all who are saved are called into ministry, all may testify and have part in the life and ministry of the church. But the call into ministry is seperate. The greatest bane in the church is folks who just up and decide [of their "own freewill"] that they are called into ministry.

You must quote the whole scripture
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God ... there is a world of difference.

As I have said I do not believe man is totally depraved, but when God leaves man alone he is.
I abhor the Limited Atonement doctrine, it is brought in simply to bolster Calvin's mistake concerning predestiny unto damnation.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Jesus is the 2nd Adam, and we are "in Christ", "ONE with God".
To be ONE< is to be the SAME.
This is explained by this verse..

"As Jesus IS....so are the born again, in this world"..

Yes we are recreated in God's image .... when we is saved.

 

[Billy Evmur]

"i have chosen you", = the context is....."if i be lifted up, i will Draw ALL MEN to me"..

So, that is the choosing. The choosing is John 3:16... God gives His Son to the World and AS MANY = as will BELIEVE..... become the chosen.

Also, its Faith that elects you to be predestined to be conformed into the Image of Christ.

Jesus also says that.... "I shall lose none that the Father has given me"".

So, the context is HOW they are Given... And that is the GOSPEL...
See, faith comes by hearing, and this faith, is why God accepts and justifies..
"Faith is counted as Righteousness".

If God was causing you to believe..., then faith would not be necessary, and there would be no need to be justified by Faith.

And I if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto Me ... but not all are drawn unto salvation, some are drawn unto judgement. The cross is the sweet savour of life unto them who are saved but to those who are perishing the foul stench of death.

By grace are ye save through faith and that not of yourelves not of works lest Behold should boast in God's presence.

The faith that saves is imparted to us as a gift when we hear the gospel and so is given while we are yet in our trespasses and sins.

God did not impart this faith to Caiphas.

You must quote the whole scripture
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God ... there is a world of difference.

 

[Billy Evmur]

People tend to go to extremes. The truth is in establishing a proper balance between what has led the hasty into the opposing extremes.

We indeed have a free choice, but only within the parameters of our present calling. We can choose to follow Christ in our own strength, but that is not to be compared to having a holy unction. For that, we must be chosen by God.
In the end we must both choose and be chosen.

Can we not resist the Holy Spirit? Of course the extremist will say that grace is always irresistible. And that may be the case at the first calling.

The calling of God is sure, But our attaining to the full stature of Christ is as much dependent on our choices as it is to the availability of grace. God's ways consist of He retaining the initiative, where the high calling in Christ is concerned. But the school of Christ doesn't hand over free diplomas.

We must still work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, and that is after we have received grace from the Lord.

I would say that God is irresistible in the matter of salvation, once we are saved, born again, we are SET FREE.

This freedom is very real. Two times God showed me this, two times I entered into a windowed building where there was a wee birdie trapped, I prayed "Lord let him trust me to set him free" and twice these little fellows hopped onto my hands and I was able to carry them out and let them go free ... what a pleasure it was to see them mount up on wings of joy up and away ...

Wherever they fly they cannot fly out of reach of God, nor can we. But we are free to love and serve the Lord and the church.

 

[Billy Evmur]

No, it's to say the complete opposite. Where ever there is trickery or deceit or obfuscation there is wilful coercion. That is NOT free will at all.

Free will can only ever occur if:

1. A person has ALL the appropriate information about the choices or options before them

2. A person has ALL the appropriate information about the impacts and consequences of each option/choice

3. A person is not pushed, coerced, forced, tricked or otherwise directed to one choice over another

Only one entity meets those criteria. God. He is the only one with free will.

I agree God is the only one who has free sovereign will.

 

[Billy Evmur]

So why do you think Eve believed the devil's contradiction of God's instruction?

I have come across the falsehood that God predetermined Eve to believe the lie of the serpent and then to persuade Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit.

Some things are damnable heresies, and the notion that God caused Eve, and then Adam, to believe they could partake of the forbidden fruit without incurring the penalty God had warned of, is one such damnable heresy.

God foreknew Eve would be deceived but He did not predestine that, what God predestined was man's redemption.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Do you need a circle for that talk...
The intent to deceive is shown in this type of talk.
You are not fooling nobody.

Show what you think the deception is then I can answer ... you are hiding

 

[Billy Evmur]

While there is no good thing dwelling in us, the grace of God offers the gift of eternal life freely to the ones who believe the Gospel. So the issue is not any virtue in any sinner but the virtues of God and Christ. And all sinners can respond to the Gospel.

As to that quote about Christ choosing His apostles, it is applicable to them in context. He chose each one for specifically for his apostleship. That verse is not about choosing for salvation, since God chooses none for either salvation or damnation. That is a damnable doctrine.

All sinners can respond to the gospel. You have to explain why YOU responded positively while others rebel against it, they may be in the same meeting a you.

The answer is that God imparted faith to you [while you yet were a sinner] but He did not impart it to the other.

Mebbe God will revisit that one perhaps in a different fashion. Saul of Tarsus heard Stephen preach, saw the miracles God did through him, saw his face shine as an angel and yet hated him so much the more.

Caiphas and High Priest Annas heard and saw Jesus but faith was not imparted to them.

 

[Grailhunter]

Show what you think the deception is then I can answer ... you are hiding

Answer to what?
The Bible is all about interpretation, you and others like you chose to have God responsible for all the evils of the world and that it is His choice to do the greatest of evils and cruelty and damn those that aren't even born yet. You march to the devil's drums.

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[David H.]

Your reference of Romans. 2. is a mis-quote, it says that those who obeyed the law show that they the law WAS written on their hearts ... a work of the Holy Spirit while they were yet unsaved. I do not believe man is totally depraved ... left without God he is, but God does not leave man.

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another (Romans 2:13-15, KJV)

What this shows is Mankind Knows there is a void in their life, and that God is not partial (See verse 11) in who will be saved and this salvation has to do with the hardness of their heart, Aka their own will and strength. The Hearer is one who is broken to the point of crying out in repentance because their own will and strength has failed to fill that void in their lives. Free will in man in the negative creates a hardened heart in the positive it creates broken heart that is able to receive Christ Jesus.

All who are saved are saints, but not all who are saved are called into ministry, all may testify and have part in the life and ministry of the church. But the call into ministry is seperate. The greatest bane in the church is folks who just up and decide [of their "own freewill"] that they are called into ministry.

One day I hope many Protestants will see the truth of what I am saying here, that not all believers are saints, but God chooses who will become a saint. Much of the denominationalism is caused by this error of the reformation, which began with the Luther vs. Erasmus debate, and is the by product of reactionary religion. When Protestantism comes to see the truth of this, the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace that occurs in the church of the saints will be a reality.

I disagree with the call to ministry part. I Believe Ministers are the elders, and all believers are called to be elders, and to grow into the role as ministers. We are all called to be a royal priesthood... That being said, one who is still feeding on the milk of the word will likely make a poor minister, as they are still being led about by carnal knowledge and cunning craftiness of men, as opposed to the Holy Spirit. (Read 1 Corinthians 3:1-8)

Caiphas and High Priest Annas heard and saw Jesus but faith was not imparted to them.

A Good example of men choosing to harden their hearts, Stephen was a saint, and his testimony (Martyria) led to the softening of Saul's heart, But even still Jesus had to intervene in His life, and break his will. Men choose what they will do with the Gospel message, whether to hear or to harden to it. Predestination is in the venue of the saints, many are called to become saints and walk the path to sainthood, few are chosen, and God does the choosing.... Paul called himself the least of the saints, if he was the least are we then greater than Paul? Or is our understanding of what it means to be a saint incorrect? I came to the latter conclusion, and am striving to make my election and calling sure if he has predestined this for me.