Where is hell? Where is heaven?

[amadeus]

didn't you know amadeus that heaven exists with fairies with membrane like wings, purple coloured leaves that glisten and glow, worms with big eyes that talk and angels that have feathers and play harps with choirs that sing the same words over and over (holy holy holy) day and night.

People do mix up... the stories they heard in childhood or read in fairy tales or saw in the movies or heard from even from ministers... with a little dab of what is written in scripture or even less than a little dab! The final result should be...? Hmmm?

 

[amadeus]

In the heart of the earth.

This is not the same as saying in the center of the world. The Greek Ge is land, earth, dirt, in the heart of the earth is the middle of the planet, if you want to go with the basic meanings of the Greek.

Not the world, the earth.

Much love!

No I am not arguing a point that ultimately in most, or maybe even in all cases, will make no difference in the direction that a person walks or in the final conclusion for him. Who wins the final argument? God does! Who is going to be with Him at the end of their road? The road we take leads up or down. Is not the choice ours to make? The end of it is either Light or darkness.

 

[quietthinker]

Not at all QT, like I said, there are various types of death, and I gave examples.
But, out of curiosity, ....first, may I ask what you are actually referring to - Annihilation?
and two, how does this relate to me, are you contesting my position? If so, that's fine, I just don't know where your comment came from, what it ultimately means, and what it applies to...?
Thanks!

God said to to the first pair 'you will surely die' when you make 'these' choices, they knew exactly what God mean't....they would cease to exist....not only the understanding of 'die' but underpinned by the word 'surely'.

Now, If a man does not feel comfortable with that pronouncement and rejects it, he will invent all manner of explanations to circumvent what God meant.....and the rational will be elaborate.....a veritable web by which he entangles himself......and any attempt to untangle using the logic that entangled him becomes futile.....why? all because he did not believe God.

 

[DNB]

God said to to the first pair 'you will surely die' when you make 'these' choices, they knew exactly what God mean't....they would cease to exist....not only the understanding of 'die' but underpinned by the word 'surely'.

Now, If a man does not feel comfortable with that pronouncement and rejects it, he will invent all manner of explanations to circumvent what God meant.....and the rational will be elaborate.....a veritable web by which he entangles himself......and any attempt to untangle using the logic that entangled him becomes futile.....why? all because he did not believe God.

Yes, I believe that you are correct, in that context, death means death. But, in the New Testament, the martyr Stephen fell asleep. Also, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, even though Jacob & Isaac died - did not cease to exist.
So again, there are various types of death, all defined by the context.
You must be an annihilationist.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, I believe that you are correct, in that context, death means death. But, in the New Testament, the martyr Stephen fell asleep. Also, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, even though Jacob & Isaac died - did not cease to exist.
So again, there are various types of death, all defined by the context.
You must be an annihilationist.

We use language to convey process and intent for eg. 'poison is deadly'. Now we know exactly what is mean't by that yet if one wants to build a case that poisons are not deadly one can with all manner of manoeuvrability make that case conditionally and so appear to nullify 'poison is deadly'.

God has ordained that all men will be judged. We are told this applies to all men, good and bad. The details are according to God's unraveling of the matter. It is our privilege to understand the details of this 'unravelling'

The word 'sleep' used as death is as an interim layover till the main event. This layover is not one of disembodiment as is used in some of man's rational. It is the best word used to convey process and is not intended to walk on all fours.

Ultimately 'death' means the cessation of all life forever. This is its intent and process will end there.

 

[BarneyFife]

That was ignorant, as there are various types of death, physical, spiritual, eternal, temporal, asleep, etc.,...

No, there really is only one literal death. The rest are metaphorical.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yes, I believe that you are correct, in that context, death means death. But, in the New Testament, the martyr Stephen fell asleep. Also, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, even though Jacob & Isaac died - did not cease to exist.
So again, there are various types of death, all defined by the context.
You must be an annihilationist.

And you must be a spiritualist. Aren't labels helpful?

 

[Brakelite]

Of course not! Who would say that??

Much love!

Who indeed!!! Absurd!

 

[marks]

Ultimately 'death' means the cessation of all life forever.

I find that death, throughout the Bible, refers to separation.

Spiritual death, separation from God. Physical death, separation from the body.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

I find that death, throughout the Bible, refers to separation.

Spiritual death, separation from God. Physical death, separation from the body.

Much love!

my friend, that's solely your spin. I have not found scripture to seperate them.

 

[DNB]

We use language to convey process and intent for eg. 'poison is deadly'. Now we know exactly what is mean't by that yet if one wants to build a case that poisons are not deadly one can with all manner of manoeuvrability make that case conditionally and so appear to nullify 'poison is deadly'.

God has ordained that all men will be judged. We are told this applies to all men, good and bad. The details are according to God's unraveling of the matter. It is our privilege to understand the details of this 'unravelling'

The word 'sleep' used as death is as an interim layover till the main event. This layover is not one of disembodiment as is used in some of man's rational. It is the best word used to convey process and is not intended to walk on all fours.

Ultimately 'death' means the cessation of all life forever. This is its intent and process will end there.

Man, wish I knew what the heck that you are getting at????
Can you not just make a doctrinal conclusion, so that I know what your ultimate point is?
Again, death means cessation of life, but the word does not preclude a re-animation or re-vivification. So, again, are you attempting to espouse a doctrine, or just play Mr. Lexicon?

 

[DNB]

No, there really is only one literal death. The rest are metaphorical.

I agree, but the OP is based on eschatological issues, so metaphors and analogies apply. Thus, death does not mean death.
Why are you & QuietThinker making this out to be a lexicon issue? I haven't a clue, in the context of the OP, what point either of you are trying to make...?

 

[DNB]

And you must be a spiritualist. Aren't labels helpful?

They can be, ...but your mindless remarks, or oblivion to mine, are not.
Buddy, what are you getting at???

 

[Brakelite]

I find that death, throughout the Bible, refers to separation.

Spiritual death, separation from God. Physical death, separation from the body.

Much love!

What is the inevitable result of any separation from the only giver of life?

 

[Brakelite]

Thus, death does not mean death.

You make such a remark to justify your agreement with the devil in the garden, (Genesis 3:4) yet rail against those who point out your deviant interpretation?

 

[BarneyFife]

They can be, ...but your mindless remarks, or oblivion to mine, are not.
Buddy, what are you getting out???

You seem to be getting out ad hominem.

 

[DNB]

You make such a remark to justify your agreement with the devil in the garden, (Genesis 3:4) yet rail against those who point out your deviant interpretation?

What the heck is going on here? @Backlit @BarnyFife @quietthinker
What the heck does the etymological meaning of the word death, have to do with anything that I wrote to amadeus???
Are you all trying to make a case for Annihilism? If so, that's fine, just come out and state it, because I do not know what you guys are getting at.
Otherwise, keep it to your frivolous selves.

 

[DNB]

You seem to be getting out ad hominem.

You seem to be mindlessly writing posts. Get to your flippin' point, or get lost.

 

[Brakelite]

What the heck is going on here? @Backlit @BarnyFife @quietthinker
What the heck does the etymological meaning of the word death, have to do with anything that I wrote to amadeus???
Are you all trying to make a case for Annihilism? If so, that's fine, just come out and state it, because I do not know what you guys are getting at.
Otherwise, keep it to your frivolous selves.

What we are doing is revealing the numerous holes in the popular belief of eternal torment and the current obsession with the doctrine of hell despite being totally alien to the character of God and His word. Any honest and truth seeking Christian will recognize these holes through which I could ride a bicycle while drunk and blindfold, and search for the only real viable and Biblical alternative to the traditional Catholic pagan sourced man-made doctrine which blasphemes and denigrates God. We have hope that you will see that for yourself, without us having to prompt you, and embrace that only alternative. By doing so you don't need to reinvent the dictionary meaning of death and sleep. It's so obvious really, and I think you do see it, but you don't want to take that step. Why I don't know.

 

[DNB]

What we are doing is revealing the numerous holes in the popular belief of eternal torment and the current obsession with the doctrine of hell despite being totally alien to the character of God and His word. Any honest and truth seeking Christian will recognize these holes through which I could ride a bicycle while drunk and blindfold, and search for the only real viable and Biblical alternative to the traditional Catholic pagan sourced man-made doctrine which blasphemes and denigrates God. We have hope that you will see that for yourself, without us having to prompt you, and embrace that only alternative. By doing so you don't need to reinvent the dictionary meaning of death and sleep. It's so obvious really, and I think you do see it, but you don't want to take that step. Why I don't know.

Finally, thank you, that took long enough.
Ok, so then you are all annihilists, no problem, ...there's a side of me that, emotionally, prefers this, but without controversy, hell is depicted as an eternal state, and, if true, I'll defer my feelings to God's unquestionable judgement.

I would spend more time discussing this with you, if I at least saw a more reasonable disposition from you. I find it hard to take someone's position seriously when they don't, at least, acknowledge the grounds for the other side. Of which, in this particular issue, there undeniably is, whether right or wrong ('...where the worm never dies, etc...', there is a myriad of these type of expressions in regard to the Lake of Fire).

If you read my post carefully, you would've understood how I emphasized that the torment was self-inflicted. So, this precludes any accusations against God of behaving out-of-character, or 'alien to His character'. I've seen the arguments or proof-text for annihilism, yes, in an isolated context, they can be construed as such. But, I don't believe that, comprehensively speaking, they define the doctrine on this issue.