Questions For A Catholic

[Selene]

It's hard to keep up so I'm just focusing on my existing conversation here and not the one between other members.


You totally ignored what I said.
I said I'd have no problem with this IF THIS IS ALL CATHOLICS WERE DOING. Look at the link. Prayer after prayer after prayer go far beyond, "Please pray for me".

Hello TexUs,
I did not ignore your post. Those prayer after prayer is how we converse with Mary and the Saints. If we can ask them to pray for us, we can also speak to them. It does not necessarily have to be "pray for me" all the time. We can even addressed them in the same way as David addressed the angels and told them to "bless the Lord." (Psalm 103:20-21). I think the problem you are having is the word "prayer." According to Dictionary.com, "prayer" has 7 different meanings. Pray doesn't always mean to worship. It also means petition or an entreaty. The Book of Psalms are not just a book of prayers but also songs of love. We still sing those songs from the Book of Psalms. Some of what you see as prayers to Mary are songs of love such as "Ave Mare," which we still sing today. Christ told us to love everyone. This does not exclude our brothers and sisters in Heaven.

So you really don't believe 1 Corinthians 1:30?

It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Of course, I believe 1 Corinthians 1:30. But what does this have to do with praying for each other? Christ redeemed us on the cross, but the Bible also says to pray for one another. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful does not mean that Christ's death on the cross means nothing. Praying for each other is always good.

You'd have to believe that there is a righteousness higher than that of Christ's, and that's heresy. So what do you say of this, Biblically?

You also blatantly ignore the context and examples James has given to us.
.

My brother, I do NOT believe that there is a righteousness higher than that of Christ's. How can there be a righteousness higher than Christ when Christ is God and nothing is higher than God. To say that there is a righteousness higher than Christ is heresy. "The prayer of a righteous man is very powerful" does not mean that it is more powerful than God. It is simply saying that it is powerful. It never said that it is more powerful than God's righteousness. How did I ignore the context and examples of James?

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

This scripture in no way is saying that prayers are more righteous than Christ? Instead, it tells us to pray for each other. If I ask a righteous friend on earth to pray for me, her prayer is powerful. But if I ask a righteous brother in Heaven to pray for me, the brother's prayer is even more powerful because the righteous brother is ALREADY in Heaven without any blemish of sin while the sister on earth is still struggling with sin. Having both of them praying for me is good.

So once more, you've got lots of explaining to do because your claims simply aren't supported by even the scriptures you've posted!
He made no such promise. Prove it Biblically. Christ grants me eternal life, not "people that believe".

My brother, that is a typo. The context of my post is supposed to read like this: "If you believe that people who believe in our Lord Jesus Christ will be granted eternal life just as He promised, then why do you think that those who died with Christ are dead? Did not the Bible say that those who die with Christ will be alive in Him? We are not speaking to dead people because there are no dead people in Heaven. We speak to people who have eternal life in Heaven. There are no dead people in Heaven because God is a God of the living, not the dead."

I would think that despite the typo, one would still be able to determine from the context that it was indeed a typo.

I don't disagree with any of that. In fact, that's the extent you can Biblically arrive from in that passage. Where's it tell you to honor Mary?

For the third time, we follow what Jesus did. Christ honored His mother because He followed all the Ten Commandments including the one that says "honor your mother and father." Jesus DID have a mother, did He not? If He only honored His father and not His mother, then He sinned and broke the fourth commandment. The commandment did not say "honor only your father." Do you believe that Jesus sin in this commandment? Did He honor only His Father and not His mother?

"United in heresy", forgive me for not being jealous.
That's YOUR human, erroneous, fallible interpretation for the Papacy. There's still nowhere that supports it.

That is only YOUR opinion. Even the Jews did not believe that Jesus was God, so what can I expect from a Protestant who claims that there is no Apostolic succession and does not know what to make of 2 Timothy 2:2. :)

I'd still like reasoning why you don't pray to Judas. You have no basis for him being pruned from the vine because you have no basis or evidence for him ever not believing who Christ was.

The Bible says that Judas when to his own place (Acts 1:25). We don't know if that is Heaven or Hell. The Church recognizes Judas as one of the 12 Apostles chosen by Jesus, but we don't know if he is in Heaven or Hell. The Church views suicide as a grave sin - the murder of yourself. Because he committed suicide and we don't know if he is in Heaven or Hell, his name is not in the liturgies of the Mass.

On the other hand, after the names, the priest DO says "AND all the angels and saints" so if you want to include Judas there as one of the many Saints whose names are too numerous to say and count, go right ahead. It does not matter to me. :)

In Christ,
Selene

 

[marksman]

name='Selene' timestamp='1291609479' post='93088']

Hello Marksman,
We do not pray to Mary. We ask Mary to pray for us.
In Christ, Selene

And where does it say in scripture that we are to ask Mary to pray for us. Apart from the fact it is very diffcult for her to do that as she is dead.

And Catholics pray to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus with their request.

Better have a word with aspen as he obviously doesn't know what he is doing.

 

[Selene]

name='Selene' timestamp='1291609479' post='93088']

And where does it say in scripture that we are to ask Mary to pray for us. Apart from the fact it is very diffcult for her to do that as she is dead.

Hello Marksman,

It's obvious that you did not read my post addressing it to all my Protestant brothers and sisters on the communion of Saints; so I will post it here for you especially since you believe that Mary is DEAD.

_______________________________________________________________________

To my Protestants brothers and sisters,

Peace be with you. It seems that the discussion has centered mostly on the Communion of Saints and the Immaculate Conception. Therefore, I will summarize these doctrines in the simplest way I can to dispel any confusion in our discussions.

Communion of Saints:

I think that we can all agree that those who believe and have faith in our Lord Jesus Christ will have eternal life (John 3:15-16). The question then that should be asked is did Mary and the Apostles believe and have faith in Jesus Christ? If your answer is yes, then why are some of you saying that they are dead? Do you not believe the words of Christ when He spoke about eternal life? Those who die in Christ will be made alive in Christ because their faith saved them (1 Corinthians 15:22). If you believe that faith and the grace of God saves you, then why do some of you say that Mary and the Apostles are dead? Didn't their faith save them?

We believe that Mary and the Apostles had faith in God our Father and is now in Heaven enjoying eternal life with Jesus. The mystical body of Christ include all believers who believe in God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and we are all one in Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27). If a person dies, does this mean that he is no longer a member of the body of Christ. According to the Bible, the answer is no. We are all made alive in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22) and there is no division in the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:25). Can death separate or break the bond between us and those of our brothers and sisters in Heaven. According to the Bible, the answer is no (Romans 8:38). Death cannot separate us from the love of Christ nor from our brothers and sisters who are alive in Christ. The bonds of love is so strong and powerful that not even death can separate us from our brothers and sisters in Heaven. Why? Because God is love (1 John 4:8). And God who is love keeps us (His family) together regardless of whether we are on earth or Heaven. And so we are called to love our neighbors including our enemies.

Mary and the Saints are in Heaven, and as for us on this earth, we were never of this world to begin with because we have been called out of this world despite that we live on this world. We imitate Christ our brother who lived on this world 2000 years ago, but was not of this world. We can speak to all the Angels and Saints in Heaven simply because we are not of this world just as Jesus said (John 15:19 and John 17:14).

Scripture shows that Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah during the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3, Luke 9:30, and Mark 9:3), and these were men who were no longer walking the earth. Jesus was not speaking to dead peope. Scripture also tells us that there are indeed people in Heaven (Hebrews 12:1 and Revelations 6:9-11). Scripture even tells us that they can see and hear us (See Luke 15:7). There will be rejoicing in Heaven if one sinner on earth repents. God allows people in Heaven to hear the repentance of one sinner so that they can rejoice. And if they can hear the repentance of one sinner, they can also hear us conversing with them and asking them to pray for us.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Thankful 1]

I would like to share some things about the body of Christ. The bodies of Christ are those who are alive, those who died, and those who are to come. We all are one in God.



he Holy Spirit gave what I just shared to me.



My wife had Mary the mother of Jesus come to her in a time of need. Not only once but twice. She did not come as someone special, but as a person giving comfort. She came as a loving person giving another loving person a loving touch. God loves us and lets the body of Christ love each other.



Some how Christians have lost their way. Christianity is spiritual, and not something one can conceive of in one’s mind. A person’s spirit controls one’s mind. If that person’s spirit is united with God’s spirit then one has defeated the world.

 

[Anastacia]

aspen continually and falsely stated that I did not and cannot prove what I have been saying in this thread. So, here is a recap of what I say, and the "proof" easily marked for all to see.

The Pope, Statues and Relics Catholics Bow Down to---

Catholics bow down to statues, "holy images" of Jesus, Mary and the Catholic Saints. They also bow down to the crucifix. The priests are commanded to bow profoundly to the "holy images," and also incense them. The Catholic's call this type of worship "veneration." The synomyn for 'veneration' is 'worship.' Regardless, we are not to give reverence, worship, venerate, nor honor statues and pictures made from stone, wood and paper, or any material (See Bible scriptures listed, for proof). "Holy Images" are any picture or statue of what the Catholics display as Jesus, Mary and Catholic Saints. Catholics also venerate relics of dead Saints, even the dead remains of these "Saints." Part of veneration is bowing to, kissing, and praying in front of said objects.

Catholics say that they aren't doing anyhing wrong when they bow to statues, etc.; they say they are only giving respect, or reverence. They respect the "images" and relics, and even the Pope; they insist they know there is only One God, whom they also insist is the only one they really are worshiping. This is still wrong according to the Word of God (See Bible scriptures listed, for proof). What do they think Apostle John was doing when he fell at the angels feet? Do you think that John all of a sudden stopped believing and knowing that God is God? Of course John still knew that God is God! So why couldn't he bow to the holy angel? Because it's wrong! So Catholics think that it is okay to bow to statues of "holy images," but apostle John can't bow to a living holy angel?

Proof. Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Cornelius fell at Peter's feet in "reverence." Does this mean that Cornelius stopped knowing that there is One God? No! But yet the Catholics think it is okay to show this kind of reverence to statues and the Pope. The Pope even has people kiss his feet. Please do a simple Google search to verify what I am saying.

Proof. Acts 10:25-26 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

Proof: Here is a link to a Catholic site that proves Catholics bow to statues "holy images." http://www.newadvent...then/07664a.htm

Proof. Here is a link to a Catholic site that proves Catholic priests incense statues: http://www.newadvent...then/07716a.htm

The link listed shows what priests are commanded to do. And if you want to know what the parishioners are required to know, please see the Catechism. Here is from the Catechism proof that Catholics are to venerate statues, etc.

Proof. Catechism
"Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets." (Pg. 328, #1161)


This passage from the Bible gives biblical proof that we are not to incense objects, not even the bronze snake made by Moses. Wnen those bitten by snakes looked at the bronze snake, they did not die.

Proof. 2 KIngs 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother's name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

Here is Bible proof that we are not to make any images and bow down to them. I can give more scriptures, but one scripture is enough.

Proof. Micah 5:13 I will destroy your carved images and your sacred stones from among you; you will no longer bow down to the work of your hands.

And for those Catholics who use the statue of Lincoln, toy dolls and toy trucks to defend bowing to statues....you don't bow to those things, but Catholics do bow to statues.

No where in the Bible are we told to bow down to statues or clothing or the dead remains of anyone.

Catholics go against the Word of God.

 

[aspen]

aspen continually and falsely stated that I did not and cannot prove what I have been saying in this thread. So, here is a recap of what I say, and the "proof" easily marked for all to see.

The Pope, Statues and Relics Catholics Bow Down to---

Catholics bow down to statues, "holy images" of Jesus, Mary and the Catholic Saints. They also bow down to the crucifix. The priests are commanded to bow profoundly to the "holy images," and also incense them. The Catholic's call this type of worship "veneration." The synomyn for 'veneration' is 'worship.' Regardless, we are not to give reverence, worship, venerate, nor honor statues and pictures made from stone, wood and paper, or any material (See Bible scriptures listed, for proof). "Holy Images" are any picture or statue of what the Catholics display as Jesus, Mary and Catholic Saints. Catholics also venerate relics of dead Saints, even the dead remains of these "Saints." Part of veneration is bowing to, kissing, and praying in front of said objects.

Catholics say that they aren't doing anyhing wrong when they bow to statues, etc.; they say they are only giving respect, or reverence. They respect the "images" and relics, and even the Pope; they insist they know there is only One God, whom they also insist is the only one they really are worshiping. This is still wrong according to the Word of God (See Bible scriptures listed, for proof). What do they think Apostle John was doing when he fell at the angels feet? Do you think that John all of a sudden stopped believing and knowing that God is God? Of course John still knew that God is God! So why couldn't he bow to the holy angel? Because it's wrong! So Catholics think that it is okay to bow to statues of "holy images," but apostle John can't bow to a living holy angel?

Proof. Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Cornelius fell at Peter's feet in "reverence." Does this mean that Cornelius stopped knowing that there is One God? No! But yet the Catholics think it is okay to show this kind of reverence to statues and the Pope. The Pope even has people kiss his feet. Please do a simple Google search to verify what I am saying.

Proof. Acts 10:25-26 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

Proof: Here is a link to a Catholic site that proves Catholics bow to statues "holy images." http://www.newadvent...then/07664a.htm

Proof. Here is a link to a Catholic site that proves Catholic priests incense statues: http://www.newadvent...then/07716a.htm

The link listed shows what Popes are commanded to do. And if you want to know what the parishioners are required to know, please see the Catechism. Here is from the Catechism proof that Catholics are to venerate statues, etc.

Proof. Catechism
"Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets." (Pg. 328, #1161)


This passage from the Bible gives biblical proof that we are not to incense objects, not even the bronze snake made by Moses. Wnen those bitten by snakes looked at the bronze snake, they did not die.

Proof. 2 KIngs 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother's name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

Here is Bible proof that we are not to make any images and bow down to them. I can give more scriptures, but one scripture is enough.

Proof. Micah 5:13 I will destroy your carved images and your sacred stones from among you; you will no longer bow down to the work of your hands.

And for those Catholics who use the statue of Lincoln, toy dolls and toy trucks to defend bowing to statues....you don't bow to those things, but Catholics do bow to statues.

Catholics go against the Word of God.

Well, that was some decent research Anastacia - here is the problem - Selene and I never denied that statues are used in veneration practices. You have only illustrated that fact, which we have never denied.

As far as John in the Book of Revelation bowing in front of the angel - he was attempting to worship the actually angel. Cornelius wasn't doing anything wrong - there is no mention of sin involved. He was honoring his guest and Peter let him know that formality was not necessary - that he in fact was not royalty.

Once again, educated Catholics do not worship wood, plaster, or granite. Statues are considered reminders of saints, period.

As far as the use of toys and dolls - every time you mention Selene using those examples it solidifies that you simply do not get it. You do not understand her point and you continue to deny that you own images that are made by human hands - there is absolutely no clarifier in those verses that say anything about it being okay to own images made by human hands if you promise not to worship them. It flatly condemns the owning of images - you can deny it all you want, but it is fact.

You also seem to be unwilling to recognize that people bowed all the time in the OT without worshiping.- here are the verses again: Genesis 19:1;Genesis 23:7;Genesis 27:29;Genesis 33:3;Genesis 33:6;1 Kings 2:19;Luke 24:5 – all examples of bowing without worshiping.

Finally, claiming that a synonym for veneration is worship is intellectually dishonest because it denies the fact that Catholic distinguish between the practices. Synonyms are different words with almost identical or similar meanings. Once again, this issue has already been addressed: Church theologians have long adopted the terms latria for the type of worship due to God alone, and dulia for the veneration given to saints and icons.

"aspen continually and falsely stated that I did not and cannot prove what I have been saying in this thread"

You have proven this accusation false. You are not only wrong about the frequency I have asked you to prove your opinions about Catholicism, I am still waiting for you to prove what you have been saying on this thread.

 

[Anastacia]

Well, that was some decent research Anastacia - here is the problem - Selene and I never denied that statues are used in veneration practices. You have only illustrated that fact, which we have never denied.
Yes. You did deny it.

As far as John in the Book of Revelation bowing in front of the angel - he was attempting to worship the actually angel. When someone bows to someone or something...that is worship. Cornelius wasn't doing anything wrong - there is no mention of sin involved. Peter commanded him to stand up. Peter also told Cornelius why it is wrong. Maybe you should take correction and stop bowing to the Pope and statues. He was honoring his guest and Peter let him know that formality was not necessary - that he in fact was not royalty. You add to the word of God.

Once again, educated Catholics do not worship wood, plaster, or granite. Again, Catholics bow to them, and we are commanded by God not to. What don't you get about that? Statues are considered reminders of saints, period. You chose those "reminders" over obeying the Word of God.

As far as the use of toys and dolls - every time you mention Selene using those examples it solidifies that you simply do not get it. You do not understand her point and you continue to deny that you own images that are made by human hands - there is absolutely no clarifier in those verses that say anything about it being okay to own images made by human hands if you promise not to worship them. We are told not to bow to the works of our hands. I don't bow to anything, and certainly not a toy. But you defend the perverted commands of the Catholic religion who tells you to do such things. It flatly condemns the owning of images - you can deny it all you want, but it is fact.

You also seem to be unwilling to recognize that people bowed all the time in the OT without worshiping.- here are the verses again: Genesis 19:1;Genesis 23:7;Genesis 27:29;Genesis 33:3;Genesis 33:6;1 Kings 2:19;Luke 24:5 – all examples of bowing without worshiping.

You try to distort the truth. You use the woman bowing her face down in fear, in Luke 24:5 as proof it is okay to bow to statues!!! That is sick.



Finally, claiming that a synonym for veneration is worship is intellectually dishonest because it denies the fact that Catholic distinguish between the practices. Synonyms are different words with almost identical or similar meanings. Once again, this issue has already been addressed: Church theologians have long adopted the terms latria for the type of worship due to God alone, and dulia for the veneration given to saints and icons.

You already admitted that venerate means to bow to. You sin when you venerate (bow to) the Pope and statues.

"aspen continually and falsely stated that I did not and cannot prove what I have been saying in this thread"

You have proven this accusation false. You are not only wrong about the frequency I have asked you to prove your opinions about Catholicism, I am still waiting for you to prove what you have been saying on this thread.

You have just proved again, how dishonest you are...when you say it again that I have not proved what I've been saying.

I hope you are never comfortable again when you look at all those statues. I also hope that you see the sin it is when you look at the Pope, your "Father."

You have done nothing here but try to distort the truth. There are many people here that will read what you say and know how wrong it is. And that you do what God says not to. They will see how you falsely accuse me. I'm glad you admit to such an offense as bowing to statues. You tried to deny it in earlier posts, but this you had to admit, for the Catholic site tells it. You belong to a religion that commands the bowing to statues! They are just statues, aspen. Open your eyes. You are bowing to stone and wood.

 

[aspen]

Anastacia


You have done nothing here but try to distort the truth.


Actually, I think we have done a nice of listening to your negative opinions of the doctrines of our church and provided clarification to your distortions.


There are many people here that will read what you say and know how wrong it is.


I am sure there are some who come to this board who would rather hold on to prejudices than listen to reality - but I do not think most people fall into that category.


And that you do what God says not to.


I see you are still firmly denying the verses we proved - it really is a shame.


They will see how you falsely accuse me.


Of what?


I'm glad you admit to such an offense as bowing to statues. You tried to deny it in earlier posts, but this you had to admit, for the Catholic site tells it.


Catholics do not bow to statues - we bow in front of statues.


You belong to a religion that commands the bowing to statues!


Wow.....you are still trying to claim that my church commands people to bow to statues - you are seriously removed from reality. Even the act of praying to saints is not mandatory - you can be a good Catholic without ever praying or even thinking about a saint.


They are just statues, aspen. Open your eyes. You are bowing to stone and wood.


This is seriously crazy talk. It reminds me of that song on the muppets show - "There's a hole in the bucket" - An old guy complaining about a hole in his bucket and his wife gives him twenty five ways to fix it and he comes up with some reason to dismiss them all - she finally suggests that he get some water - but of course, there is a hole in the bucket. The point is we have come full circle, Anastacia - there is nothing more to discuss.

 

[Anastacia]

Anastacia


You have done nothing here but try to distort the truth.


Actually, I think we have done a nice of listening to your negative opinions of the doctrines of our church and provided clarification to your distortions.


There are many people here that will read what you say and know how wrong it is.


I am sure there are some who come to this board who would rather hold on to prejudices than listen to reality - but I do not think most people fall into that category.


And that you do what God says not to.


I see you are still firmly denying the verses we proved - it really is a shame.


They will see how you falsely accuse me.


Of what?


I'm glad you admit to such an offense as bowing to statues. You tried to deny it in earlier posts, but this you had to admit, for the Catholic site tells it.


Catholics do not bow to statues - we bow in front of statues.


You belong to a religion that commands the bowing to statues!


Wow.....you are still trying to claim that my church commands people to bow to statues - you are seriously removed from reality. Even the act of praying to saints is not mandatory - you can be a good Catholic without ever praying or even thinking about a saint.


They are just statues, aspen. Open your eyes. You are bowing to stone and wood.


This is seriously crazy talk. It reminds me of that song on the muppets show - "There's a hole in the bucket" - An old guy complaining about a hole in his bucket and his wife gives him twenty five ways to fix it and he comes up with some reason to dismiss them all - she finally suggests that he get some water - but of course, there is a hole in the bucket. The point is we have come full circle, Anastacia - there is nothing more to discuss.

I can see how you like man's wisdom and little stories people tell. How befitting of you.

Anastacia


Wow.....you are still trying to claim that my church commands people to bow to statues - you are seriously removed from reality. Even the act of praying to saints is not mandatory - you can be a good Catholic without ever praying or even thinking about a saint.

You admitted Catholics venerate statues. When Catholics venerate, this includes bowing and kissing the object to be venerated. Now you deny it, again? Here again is a site that proves that priests are commanded to bow to statues. Many people who read your lies have themselves been in the Catholic church, and they have seen the priest bow to the statues. Yes, we have seen it for ourselves.


Here is part of an article and link that may help:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. In the Latin Rite the priest is commanded to bow to the cross in the sacristy before he leaves it to say Mass ("Ritus servandus" in the Missal, II, 1); he bows again profoundly "to the altar or the image of the crucifix placed upon it" when he begins Mass (ibid., II, 2); he begins incensing the altar by incensing the crucifix on it (IV, 4), and bows to it every time he passes it (ibid.); he also incenses any relics or images of saints that may be on the altar (ibid.). In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them.


Here again is proof from the Catechism that statues and images are venerable.

"Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets." (Pg. 328, #1161)


aspen, how many times are you going to deny? I will keep coming back to defend the truth, every time you lie.

 

[aspen]

I can see how you like man's wisdom and little stories people tell. How befitting of you.




You admitted Catholics venerate statues. When Catholics venerate, this includes bowing and kissing the object to be venerated. Now you deny it, again? Here again is a site that proves that priests are commanded to bow to statues. Many people who read your lies have themselves been in the Catholic church, and they have seen the priest bow to the statues. Yes, we have seen it for ourselves.


Here is part of an article and link that may help:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. In the Latin Rite the priest is commanded to bow to the cross in the sacristy before he leaves it to say Mass ("Ritus servandus" in the Missal, II, 1); he bows again profoundly "to the altar or the image of the crucifix placed upon it" when he begins Mass (ibid., II, 2); he begins incensing the altar by incensing the crucifix on it (IV, 4), and bows to it every time he passes it (ibid.); he also incenses any relics or images of saints that may be on the altar (ibid.). In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them.


Here again is proof from the Catechism that statues and images are venerable.

"Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets." (Pg. 328, #1161)


aspen, how many times are you going to deny? I will keep coming back to defend the truth, every time you lie.

Dumping information from the Middle Ages does not help you. That paragraph you copied is describing the Latin Rite after the Iconoclastic heresy - that was around 9 AD. You will obviously go to any length to spread your anger at the Catholic Church. Just because the wording of an outdated Missal uses the word "command" when describing the duties of a priest doesn't support your claim that "catholics are commanded to bow down to statues" before Mass. Sorry.


And why are you trying to prove that Catholics venerate statues? Catholics do this - how many times do I have to write it? You are mistaking praying to a statue and venerating a statue. There are no rules about venerating a statue as long as you are not mistaking it for a divine being - we do not worship or pray or bow down to statues.


If you had bothered to provide relevant information from the same article and from this century about veneration, it would look like this:


As an example of contemporary Catholic teaching on this subject one could hardly quote anything better expressed than the "Catechism of Christian Doctrine" used in England by command of the Catholic bishops. In four points, this book sums up the whole Catholic position exactly:

• "It is forbidden to give divine honour or worship to the angels and saints for this belongs to God alone."
• "We should pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour or worship, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God."
• "We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."
• "We do not pray to relics or images, for they can neither see nor hear nor help us."

This is my last post to you on this thread - I will not talk with anyone who is incapable of engaging in a civil dialog about religion. You have been clear about only posting here to expose the doctrines of my church and you have apparently forgotten that you are speaking to human beings. I will not continue talking with a person that has resorted in her fervor to call me a liar.

Goodbye

 

[deprofundis]

I have heard many, but especially Catholics, say that suicide is a sin for which there can be no forgiveness, or even that it is the only such sin. Do you believe that this true?

 

[Anastacia]

Dumping information from the Middle Ages does not help you. That paragraph you copied is describing the Latin Rite after the Iconoclastic heresy - that was around 9 AD. aspen, the PRIESTS TODAY BOW TO IMAGES AND STATUES. You sure try to distort the truth with your ridiculous arguments. And like I told you a couple of times already---anyone who has gone in the Catholic church has seen the priest do these things. It doesn't matter how old you think the commands are. The Catholic church still does most of their practices as they did centuries and centuries ago. You will obviously go to any length to spread your anger at the Catholic Church. It's not anger. I love God's Word. And I love exposing false doctrine and beliefs.


Just because the wording of an outdated Missal uses the word "command" when describing the duties of a priest doesn't support your claim that "catholics are commanded to bow down to statues" before Mass. Sorry.
I see you are having a very hard time accepting what the Catholic religion teaches. Next time you go to a Traditional Mass---observe the priest at the front of the "altar." Maybe he will be wearing his special robe that day and incense too. Get there before Mass starts so you can watch him bow profoundly to the images.

And why are you trying to prove that Catholics venerate statues? Catholics do this - how many times do I have to write it? You are mistaking praying to a statue and venerating a statue. There are no rules about venerating a statue as long as you are not mistaking it for a divine being - we do not worship or pray or bow down to statues.
I'm not mistaking anything. You are just trying to twist my words like you do the Bible. From what you just wrote here, you even twist your own words! Yes, Catholics do bow down to statues. If it bothers you so much then leave the religion that goes against the commands of God.

If you had bothered to provide relevant information from the same article and from this century about veneration, it would look like this:


As an example of contemporary Catholic teaching on this subject one could hardly quote anything better expressed than the "Catechism of Christian Doctrine" used in England by command of the Catholic bishops. In four points, this book sums up the whole Catholic position exactly:

• "It is forbidden to give divine honour or worship to the angels and saints for this belongs to God alone."
• "We should pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour or worship, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God."
• "We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."
• "We do not pray to relics or images, for they can neither see nor hear nor help us."

You deny just like your fathers do. Also, try to lessen the offense all you like, but it is still wrong. Whether you call it "inferior honor" or not. God says do not bow to them. What don't you like about God's word that you try to justify sin?

Would you like me to post pictures of the Pope bowing and worshiping statues of Mary?

This is my last post to you on this thread - I will not talk with anyone who is incapable of engaging in a civil dialog about religion. You have been clear about only posting here to expose the doctrines of my church and you have apparently forgotten that you are speaking to human beings. I will not continue talking with a person that has resorted in her fervor to call me a liar.

Stop trying to insult me. You are guilty of the very thing you falsely accuse me of. Maybe it is you who is "incapable of engaging in a civil dialog about religion."


Goodbye

Like I told you before---you keep telling lies about me and what I say, and I'll keep coming on to show you are not speaking truth.

 

[deprofundis]

Anastacia, why do you interpret the scripture's use of "bow" so literally? Does a theatre company worship a false idol when they take their bow at the end of a show, to thank the audience? I believe that the scripture means not to bow down in worship of a false idol, not that one can never offer a physical sign of respect to anyone but God. I don't see anything wrong with offering a sign of respect to a statue as a way of offering respect to the one of whom it is a statue, if s/he is no longer present in the physical world. It only becomes idolatrous when one worships the statue, or whomever it represents, as one worships God. Only God is worshiped as divine, saints and angels are honoured for their purity, wisdom, or grace. I don't see any reason to continue insisting Aspen worships an image, or worships anything but God, when he has made it clear that he does not, or further, to outright call him a liar. Forgive me if this sounds flippant, it is not meant to, but may come across that way and I don't know another way to phrase it, but I think that Aspen knows who or what he worships better than you do; you can say all you want about physical motions, but he is the one who knows what is in his heart.

 

[TexUs]

I did not ignore your post. Those prayer after prayer is how we converse with Mary and the Saints. If we can ask them to pray for us, we can also speak to them.

What's the Bible say of communicating with the dead?
Before you pull "they aren't dead, they're alive in the body", let me give you a BIBLICAL example. Samuel was a prophet and is no doubt in the living body of Christ.
When Saul called him up, you see Saul was not in God's graces. You'll also see Samuel was pissed off about it.


So the one example we've got in the Bible to deal with this is painted in a negative connotation, I wonder why? Could it possibly be communicating with ANY dead, is not pleasing to God?

Of course, I believe 1 Corinthians 1:30. But what does this have to do with praying for each other?

You said the people in heaven are more righteousnesses so their prayers are more effective.
Paul teaches that we are all made righteous by the exact same righteousness of Christ, so I'm asking how you can possibly base that statement anywhere on scripture.
We are all the same.


You said you agreed that there is no righteousness higher than that of Christ's. So if your righteousness is from Christ and Mary's is from Christ, what makes her anymore righteous than anyone else in Christ?

Does this support people in heaven praying for you? No. Do you believe there's sickness in heaven? Yet James is saying if someone among them is sick, to pray for them.
Just look at the beginning of the letter, it was written to tribes on earth. That alone should be convincing enough.
What's the context of this passage? Praying in times of trouble and sickness. Does that happen in heaven?

James doesn't stop there and gives an earthly example of Elijah... Unless you believe it rains on crops in heaven.


It's abundantly clear his thoughts were on those of earth, not in heaven.

Once more, where's it say to honor Mary? Nowhere. It says to honor YOUR mother. If you take this to mean Christ's mother then nobody else in the world can possibly break this commandment because, after all, it's talking about Mary. You've got to make a choice here. Either it was talking about Mary or each individual person's mother.
If the former, prove it.
If the later, stop using this as proof to elevate Mary.

If you'd realize the communication of this letter alone, regardless of what the text says, you'd realize it supports it. It's a command from PAUL to TIMOTHY. Peter is nowhere to be found.

Then why did you make an absolute statement that he was pruned away from the vine if you really don't know?

Some how Christians have lost their way. Christianity is spiritual, and not something one can conceive of in one’s mind.

Yes, however, if a person is being led by a "spirit" contrary to Scripture then it's fairly clear that spirit is not of God.

As far as John in the Book of Revelation bowing in front of the angel - he was attempting to worship the actually angel.

Yep, and what was the command that followed the bowing to anyone but God?
"Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!"
The angel lumps prophets and servants into one group... You don't see him saying it's OK to worship saints or prophets... Nay, he condemns worship to anyone other than God.

Statues are considered reminders of saints, period.

Where, Biblically, is there any support made for this exemption?
The statue of the unknown god didn't represent ANYTHING and yet it was condemned.

You also seem to be unwilling to recognize that people bowed all the time in the OT without worshiping.- here are the verses again: Genesis 19:1;Genesis 23:7;Genesis 27:29;Genesis 33:3;Genesis 33:6;1 Kings 2:19;Luke 24:5 – all examples of bowing without worshiping.

There's some poor examples in there but there are a couple of valid ones, good points.
Now, taking all Biblical examples into account there's definitely a difference between bowing in respect and bowing in reverence.


Do you simply bow out of respect? Or in awe?
I see John being condemned for the latter.
If it's for the former I simply don't see the point... I respect George Washington, but I would not bow to his statue out of respect. Would you?

 

[Anastacia]

Anastacia, why do you interpret the scripture's use of "bow" so literally? Does a theatre company worship a false idol when they take their bow at the end of a show, to thank the audience? I believe that the scripture means not to bow down in worship of a false idol, not that one can never offer a physical sign of respect to anyone but God. I don't see anything wrong with offering a sign of respect to a statue as a way of offering respect to the one of whom it is a statue, if s/he is no longer present in the physical world. It only becomes idolatrous when one worships the statue, or whomever it represents, as one worships God. Only God is worshiped as divine, saints and angels are honoured for their purity, wisdom, or grace. I don't see any reason to continue insisting Aspen worships an image, or worships anything but God, when he has made it clear that he does not, or further, to outright call him a liar. Forgive me if this sounds flippant, it is not meant to, but may come across that way and I don't know another way to phrase it, but I think that Aspen knows who or what he worships better than you do; you can say all you want about physical motions, but he is the one who knows what is in his heart.

De Profundis, God says do not "bow." I guess you question God why He uses that word? Or you just don't like me taking God's Word seriously? You make excuses why you go against the Word of God....you bring up theatre, and the actors bowing to the audience.... The Bible tells us not to bow to the works of your hands. What don't you get about that? How hard is that to grasp? And have you really ever wondered why someone would go ahead and bow to a statue anyway?

Of course aspen denies the Catholic religion is doing anything wrong when they bow to statues, but I will come back and correct people when they speak untruth about me and what I say. You don't think I have the right too? Aspen said false things about me, and I straight out told him he was lying. That's what happens when someone falsely accuses you of something----they get called up on lying. And he said some rude things to me, so why don't you make a little post telling him how wrong that was? Seriously, why don't you? You didn't think to, and that shows something about you and your post here to me. As for you saying aspen knows more about the Catholic religion than I do, you have no business saying that. As for when someone denies the Word of God here and there.....doesn't that show some of what is in their heart too?

 

[marksman]

The Pope is the Vicar of Christ. The Pope's full title is: Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Patriarch of the West, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, and Soverign of the City of Vatican.

Can't see any of this stuff in the scriptures. I think the rcc made it up to be superior to everyone else..

As I pointed out in an earlier post, one needs to only look up the definition for the word "Vicar." According to Dictionary.com, vicar is defined as the following:

Try answering the question. I didn't ask about priests.

And if they can hear the repentance of one sinner, they can also hear us conversing with them and asking them to pray for us.

Where does it say in scripture that we are to ask mary to pray fror us. Most of the verses you quoted do not mean what you say they do.

We can speak to all the Angels and Saints in Heaven simply because we are not of this world just as Jesus said (John 15:19 and John 17:14).

With all due respect, that is complete rubbish.

Once again, educated Catholics do not worship wood, plaster, or granite. Statues are considered reminders of saints, period.

That means the uneducated ones do. So when are you going to do something about their ignorance?

Statues are considered reminders of saints, period.

Doh! I don't remember God saying we weren't to make any graven image but if it helps you remember the saints you can. I reckon the rcc makes things up as they go along.

•"We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."

Where does it say we are to do that in scripture?

 

[bud02]

Anastacia, why do you interpret the scripture's use of "bow" so literally? Does a theatre company worship a false idol when they take their bow at the end of a show, to thank the audience? I believe that the scripture means not to bow down in worship of a false idol, not that one can never offer a physical sign of respect to anyone but God.

I my opinion your trying to distract from what goes on in your sanctuaries with this statement.
Quote; Does a theater company worship a false idol when they take their bow at the end of a show, to thank the audience?

In your statuary do you not bow your head in reverence to "god"? All you have to do is open your eyes and look up. What do you see? An image of Mary or Jesus?
Quote; not that one can never offer a physical sign of respect to anyone but God.
Reading between the lines here I would say you feel it's alright as long as it's Mary or Jesus or perhaps some other "saint "

 

[Selene]

What's the Bible say of communicating with the dead?
Before you pull "they aren't dead, they're alive in the body", let me give you a BIBLICAL example. Samuel was a prophet and is no doubt in the living body of Christ.
When Saul called him up, you see Saul was not in God's graces. You'll also see Samuel was pissed off about it.


So the one example we've got in the Bible to deal with this is painted in a negative connotation, I wonder why? Could it possibly be communicating with ANY dead, is not pleasing to God?

Hello Marksman,

Where in my post did I say that we ask Saul to pray for us? I said that we ask Mary to pray for us....the one whom you believe is DEAD despite that she had faith in Christ and Saul did not. And for your information, Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration. Perhaps you should tell Jesus that He was wrong to speak to the dead.

You miss the point.
Yes, we follow what Christ did, so HONOR YOUR MOTHER.
We don't need to honor HIS mother in any special mother-son relationship moreso than we do anyone else in the Body of Christ.

Who are you to tell us that we are NOT to follow Jesus who is our role model? Do you not know that in the Bible, the PROPHECY says that all generations will call Mary blessed (See Luke 1:48)/ Did YOU fulfill this propehcy? NO, of course not! How can you fulfill this prophecy in the Bible when you cannot even honor her by calling her "blessed?" So, guess who fulfilled this prophecy.....It is us, the Catholics. Because you cannot even fulfill this prophecy in the Bible by calling her the "blessed mother" as we do, who are you to tell us?

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Selene]

I my opinion your trying to distract from what goes on in your sanctuaries with this statement.
Quote; Does a theater company worship a false idol when they take their bow at the end of a show, to thank the audience?

In your statuary do you not bow your head in reverence to "god"? All you have to do is open your eyes and look up. What do you see? An image of Mary or Jesus?
Quote; not that one can never offer a physical sign of respect to anyone but God.
Reading between the lines here I would say you feel it's alright as long as it's Mary or Jesus or perhaps some other "saint "

Actually, he is correct. I have even given an example of Abraham bowing to the angels, and none of the angels told him not to. Anastacia and you do not care to hear about Abraham bowing to the angels in respect. And not one of you made any comment about it. Instead, you focus on St. John bowing to the angel where the angel tells him not to.

When the Ark of the Covenant was built, there were two cheribums (statues of angels) that were built on each side of the Ark. The Israelites bowed to the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark was where God dwelled inside. The Israelites brought incense and sacrificed to the Ark of the Covenant, which looked like a box with two angels on its side. So, are they worshipping this box or not? Which is it?

2 Ch. 6:11-13 And in it have I put the ark, wherein [is] the covenant of the LORD, that he made with the children of Israel. And he stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands: For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven.

The Ark of the Covenant is really a beautiful box with statues of angels on the side. So, are they worshipping this box or are they worshipping God? Which is it?

The first commandment of God ALSO states that you are not to MAKE any image of anything on earth. But you ignore this part. Nevermind about the images of your loved one in your home. Nevermind the statue of Lady Liberty, Abraham Lincoln, George Wahshington, and all the statues and images of the founding fathers and other historical figures. You focus only on the images of OUR loved ones that we keep in Church. Why is that?

1 Ch. 15:26 And it came to pass, when God helped the Levites that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, that they offered seven bullocks and seven rams.

Here we have the Israelites offering sacrifices to the Ark of the Covenant, which is a beautiful box with statues of two angels on each side. So, are they worshipping this box or God? Which one is it?

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Selene]

Try answering the question. I didn't ask about priests.

I already gave the defintion of vicar from Dictionary.com. You can look back in my post and re-read the definition of "vicar" or look it up in Dictionary.com.

Where does it say in scripture that we are to ask mary to pray fror us. Most of the verses you quoted do not mean what you say they do.

Where does it say in the Bible that you are supposed to ask your friend Joe or Mike to pray for you?

With all due respect, that is complete rubbish.

With all due respect, it is not my fault that you are still of this world.

Doh! I don't remember God saying we weren't to make any graven image but if it helps you remember the saints you can. I reckon the rcc makes things up as they go along.

Read your Bible. God told Moses to make a statue of a brass serpent (Numbers 21:8-9). You can tell God that He was wrong to do that. God bless,

In Christ,
Selene