Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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Kermos

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Peter or was it paul says something real interesting .
Wait it was paul ........i think .
Has anyone wondered why the serpent tempted eve and not rather adam .
Doesnt paul say something concerning this . The reason why he didnt allow women to teach and ursurp authority over the men .
OH , i aint even excusing adam . But it seems he chose his wife over GOD when he decided to go ahead and eat
the fruit from his wifes hand . So he was guilty too .
I JUST PRAISE GOD FOR JESUS . cause anyone of us would have failed just like adam and eve did . And that too is a fact .
BUT JESUS DIDNT FAIL . NO sirs and no mams . HE PREVAILED . AND HE DID IT FOR US . YES FOR US .
SO that all who would believe would be saved . DONT that make us wanna just dance a jig of praise unto OUR LORD . IT SURE DOES ME .

I am eternally grateful for God's work for I believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

I am humbled by God's sacrifice (Luke 23:24).

I fall down in worship, adoration, and praise of my Redeemer!

I do all this by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). I did not choose God, but God chose Me (John 15:16).

By the way, choosing Eve must not be confused with choosing God, so that does not equate to free will for Adam.

Back to the original post, Adam was created without a free-will.
 

Jlentz

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Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

  1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
    AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
    AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
    YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
    BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
    NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
    IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
    AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י™ (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
    THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
    THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
    SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
    AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
    SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
    AND the firm fact is established
    THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
  2. Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
    1. Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
      WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
    2. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
      SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
      AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
      THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
      SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
      SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
    3. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
      BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
      AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
      FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
      YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
      THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
      THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      WHICH Adam heard from Eve
      FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
      SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
      AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
      SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
      AND action is the context
      SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
    4. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
      1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
      2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ
      3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
      4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
      5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
      6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
      7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianityBoard.com link),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!
If he had no freewill he wouldn't have eaten of the tree. Pretty simple huh?
 
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Kermos

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Did Jesus not have a choice in the matter of whether or not He would fail or succeed at accomplishing His mission?

You are off topic.

Your useless, meaningless, and insulting speculation about "if" is against God! You try to get man to speculate about King Jesus' (John 19:37) gloriously completed accomplishments (John 19:30, John 20:1-31, Acts 11:18, and so much more)!!!

Now, back to the topic, Adam was not imparted a free will just as the original post exposes; therefore, no man afterward has a free will.
 

Kermos

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He was already given an informed choice directly by God. All he had to do was obey.

Adam was NOT "given an informed choice directly by God" for the word "choice" is not in the Word of God; in reality, Adam was given a command by God to eat of the garden trees except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17).

You are in violation of item 2.1. and item 2.3. of the original post.

This goes for you, too, @amigo de christo, since you like Enoch111's post.
 

Enoch111

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Adam was NOT "given an informed choice directly by God" for the word "choice" is not in the Word of God
Choice is IMPLIED in the commandment. You do not need to look for an explicit word when choice is implied. Take another look at this verse: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The commandment said "Do not eat the fruit from that tree". And the choice is implied within "in the day that thou eatest thereof" (which means that Adam could CHOOSE to disobey). The "informed choice" was in the very serious consequence "thou shalt surely die".
 

Kermos

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In all your carefulness you have forgotten some important Biblical aspects about their state in God's Garden. Adam and Eve did not commit the very first sin, Satan did in the old world before Adam and Eve. Satan's sin in the beginning is what brought sin and thus death (1 John 3:8; Hebrews 2:14). By the time Satan as "that old serpent" was in Eden tempting Eve, he was already doomed to perish and in his role as Adversary. Because Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15:49-50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does 'corruption'... inherit incorruption, that shows Adam and Eve's flesh represented a state of corruption for this world. It was Eve's flesh that caused her to be tempted and sin in disobeying God. She even said the fruit was good for food and pleasant to the eyes (Gen.3). At the end of Romans 7, Apostle Paul (in the KJV) showed the law of sin existed in his fleshy members in contrast to the law of God in the inner man (i.e., one's spirit). So when considering this matter of Adam and Eve in God's Garden, the flesh vs. spirit must be understood.

No, Davy, I did not forget important Biblical aspects. In the original post, by reference I included this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianityBoard.com link) which God led me to write.

In the essay, Satan is identified as an evil actor in the garden of Eden.

Also, in the essay, Adam's being made flesh is covered; furthermore, Paul's writings on the matter are included.

Nonetheless, Adam was not imparted free will just as the original post expouses, so none of mankind thereafter has free will.
 

Kermos

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Bottomline= No one forced Adam and Eve to choose to not obey God.

Bottomline, your post is absent of scripture citation, so this is a reflection of your thoughts.

As a reminder, the original post expouses that Adam was not created with free will to choose God.

Now, back to examining your interpretation exposed in your post, GISMYS_7.

The word "choose" does not occur in the first 5 chapters of Genesis which are about the creation and man's removal from the garden of Eden and some following events.

"Choose" nor it's conjugates are in "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6).

That is the specific spot in scripture that records the first sin of man, but the word "choose" is NOT there.

This means that you, GISMYS_7, are adding the word "choose" to scripture.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
 

Kermos

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The question in the original post is NOT about Satan, Davy.

The original post's question is "Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?", to wit, the answer is "no", so no mere person thereafter has a free will, no one, not you, Davy.

The emptiness of scripture in your post demonstrates just how founded your thoughts are in your image you construct, for your thoughts are not God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9). God kindly and lovingly reveals God's thoughts in scripture.

Paul dispensed with your "robots" remark when Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:20-23).

You contradict Jesus with your "He gave us free will to choose", for there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

The one who dies in the sin of unbelief in the Word of God goes to eternal punishment (John 3:36).
 
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Kermos

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Smarten up Kermos, I said that YOU don't have the Spirit, not that it's not the power of God, nor avaialble to the faithful and humble, ...unlike yourself.
You really sound weird, your exegesis is deplorable, you lack a great deal of wisdom.
BTW, did you write Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor?

I thank God for God's gift of the Holy Spirit to me that teaches me Truth (John 14:6, John 14:18, John 14:26), and He, the Spirit of God, led me to write Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor full of the glorious Word of God and truthful examination of grammar explaining that man has a bound-will.

Since God granted me the mind of Christ (2 Corinthians 2:16), God has generously, kindly, and lovingly granted wisdom by God to me (1 Corinthians 1:24). This is not limited to me, but to all that are imparted the work of God to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

I do not lay claim that I did any of this on my own, but it is God's work, God's gift, the love of Jesus Christ.

It's Christ in me, not me.

Your post is devoid of scripture, again!

Lord Jesus says something very powerful "I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the [age] to come" (Matthew 12:31-32).
 

Kermos

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You are incapable of a scripturally accurate response to my post to you including the definitive proof that you added to the Word of God in your earlier post, so, again, it appears you squeeze your eyes shut to the Truth (John 14:6).

Please go back to my previous post to you, and dig into it because free will is scripturally demonstrated to be non-existent.

Now, on to your current post which is a continuation of the above.

Yes; and 1 Corinthians 7:40-b says "I think that I also have the Spirit of God."

That free will is given to man is evident in such scriptures as Revelation 3:20, Revelation 22:17, Joshua 24:15, and John 1:12.

Regarding your citation of (1 Corinthians 7:40), Paul did not write that he chose God, so there is no free will therein.

Nothing in the 1 Corinthians 7:39-40 passage that you presented indicates that a person interprets the Word of God; on the other hand, Peter explicitly states "know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

This is the truth, interpretation is up to the Spirit of God, not you (2 Peter 1:21).

Not a single one of the verses you cite contains free will, so that is you adding to scripture. Since you cite Revelation, then this which the Apostle John wrote applies to you, "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

The Word of God is clear about the absence of a thing called free-will for Adam per the scripturally filled original post to this thread. No person after Adam and Eve have been endowed with a free will after Adam and Eve.
 

Kermos

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Passages that speak of man's free will include Joshua 24:15, Revelation 3:20, Revelation 22:17, and John 1:12.

Not a single one of the verses you cite contains free will, so that is you adding to scripture. Since you cite Revelation, then this which the Apostle John wrote applies to you, "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

BTW, you left out John 1:13 when you mentioned John 1:12. so here are the two verses together "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

Behold, justbyfaith, the Apostle John established "not" "of the will of man", so free will is eliminated, and he further established bound will is established because "born" "of God"!

The Word of God is clear about the absence of a thing called free-will for Adam per the scripturally filled original post to this thread. Every person after Adam has been endowed with a bound-will, just as the original post shows scripturally.
 

justbyfaith

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You must receive Christ in order to become a child of God.

If that is not an act of the will, I don't know what is.

John 1:13 shows us that we cannot muster up salvation as an act of the will; which does not preclude that we must not make a free will decision to receive Christ in order to obtain the right to become a child of God.

I cannot say one day, "I am going to be saved" and thus be saved.

There is a prescribed method for obtaining salvation; and God is the One who does the saving.

I do not save myself.

However, I can be absolutely certain that I have procured salvation if I ask the Lord to save me, calling on His name.

Regarding your citation of (1 Corinthians 7:40), Paul did not write that he chose God, so there is no free will therein.

This is the truth, interpretation is up to the Spirit of God, not you (2 Peter 1:21).

To which I reply that, "I think that I also have the Spirit of God" (1 Corinthians 7:40).

So, yes, interpretation is up to the Spirit of God; and I think that I also have Him in my heart.

So, how is my interpretation going to be very far off from what the author of the Book says is the interpretation?
 

Kermos

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ERROR,
Genesis 2:16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:"

Mayest here is a choice, listen to the definition. expressing possibility.

and the next verse is a warning that goes with this FREEDOM of Choice, Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.". so the choice was Adam to eat or not to eat.
so my biblical position still stands.


LIE on your part, see above.

Another LIE, without knowing... expressing possibility is a thing that may be chosen or done out of several possible alternatives.

as said, it's a WARRING in this FREE CHOICE.

In reality, the word "freely" does not appear in the Hebrew of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage. The Hebrew source word for "freely" is truly "to eat" in English for Genesis 2:16.

Also, the word "may" does not appear in the Hebrew of the passage. The Hebrew source word for "may" is truly "you will be eating" in English for Genesis 2:16.

The word "surely" can surely lead to misinterpretation of the passage since the Hebrew source word for "surely" is truly "to die" in English for Genesis 2:17.

First, we need to look at the passage, so here is Genesis 2:16 from three different angles: New American Standard Bible, Hebrew Bible, and Interlinear.

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may freely eat;" (Genesis 2:16, NASB)
ויצו יהוה אלהים על האדם לאמר מכל עץ הגן אכל תאכל
(Genesis 2:16, Hebrew Bible, historians say accent marks for vowels did not appear in early Hebrew script)

and-commanded YHVH God unto the-man saying of-every tree of-the-garden to-eat you-eating (Genesis 2:16, Interlinear word for word translation of English from Hebrew)

Now, here is Genesis 2:17 from three different angles of NASB, Hebrew Bible, and Interlinear. "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:17, NASB)

ומעץ הדעת טוב ורע לא תאכל ממנו כי ביום אכלך ממנו מות תמות
(Genesis 2:17, Hebrew Bible, historians say accent marks for vowels did not appear in early Hebrew script)

but-of-the-tree of-the-knowledge of-good and-evil not you-eating from when in-the-day you-to-eat of-it to-die you-dying (Genesis 2:17, Interlinear word for word translation of English from Hebrew)

Second, we need to look at the lexical construction.
The final two words of both verses follow similar patterns. The final two words are verbs. The final two words have the same root word. The first word is the Qal (Strong's 7031 - light, swift, fleet) infinitive absolute verb form (to be). The second word is the qal (Strong's 7031 - light, swift, fleet) imperfect second person masculine singular verb form (incomplete action thus present tense applies and past tense can be included and future tense can apply).

In Hebrew grammar, the qal is the simple paradigm and simplest stem formation of the verb.

The word roots are easily distinguishable when carefully examined.

Here are the final two Hebrew words of Genesis 2:16, אכל תאכל, notice the consistent word root. Both of these words are Strong's 398 - eat.

Here are the final two Hebrew words of Genesis 2:17, מות תמות, notice the consistent word root. Both of these words are Strong's 4191 - die.

The sixth word of Genesis 2:17 is תאכל which is precisely the same word that appears as the second of the two last words at the end of the Genesis 2:16, so we have a point of reference for this word.

Notice that the Hebrew word אכל (Strong's 398 - eat) in Genesis 2:16 is not the Hebrew word חפשי (Strong's 2670 - free).

Third, it is prudent to mention that the Masoretes added the vowel accents into the Hebrew written manuscripts. The Masoretes were a sect of Jews that lived after Jesus ascended to heaven. We have earlier copies of Hebrew manuscripts that contain consonants only, so the Hebrew consonant only script is what I use here in this essay. I use the consonant only script because it more closely represents the original Hebrew writing.

Fourth, it's time to apply proper translation.

In Genesis 2:16, the final two words "אכל תאכל" (to-eat you-eating) are of significant relevance to this topic since both of these words are of the root "eat".

The first of the two words "אכל" (Strongs 398 - eat) is the infinitive verb form thus it translates to English as "to-eat"; however, some English translations use the word "freely", yet "freely" is an inappropriate translation of "eat" because the word is not the Hebrew word for "free" while it is the Hebrew word for "eat".

The second of the two words "תאכל" (Strongs 398 - eat) is the imperfect verb form thus it translates to English as "you-eating".

These two words essentially result in the first part of the command being "of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating" thus liberty of action without punishment is expressed. Also, instead of the permissive of "may" as part of the "eat" verb, it is appropriate for "will" to be part of the "eat" verb; in other words, "may eat" is the wrong translation., and "will eat" is the correct translation.

In Genesis 2:17, the final two words "מות תמות" (to-die you-dying) are of significant relevance to this topic since both of these words are of the root "die".

The first of the two words "מות" (Strongs 4191 - die) is the infinitive verb form thus it translates to English as "to-die"; however, some English translations use the word "surely", yet "surely" is an inappropriate translation of "die".

The second of the two words "תמות" (Strongs 4191 - die) is the imperfect verb form thus it translates to English as "you-dying".

These two words essentially cause the end of the command to say "day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying" thus the punishment is expressed.

Fifth, conclusions based on the above.

Since some people say proper translation of "to eat" and "to die" depend on the Hebrew language construct, so then there should be no problem switching "freely" to "surely" in Genesis 2:16; furthermore, there should be no problem switching "surely" to "freely" in Genesis 2:17; however, switching or keeping "freely" and/or "surely" causes confusion, yet God is not of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

After all, "to-eat" followed by "you-will-be-eating" and "to-die" followed by "you-will-be-dying" have the same language construct of "qal infinitive absolute verb form" (to eat/to die) followed by "qal imperfect second person masculine singular verb form" (you-will-be-eating/you-will-be-dying).

The current English translation of "to eat" to "freely" is arbitrary in Genesis 2:16.

As it stands in the English translations, the translation of "to die" to "surely" is arbitrary in Genesis 2:17.

If one says that the vowel marks dictate the language construct, then such a one relies on the Masoretic Manuscript edits that the Masoretes added nearly 2,000 years after the original manuscripts, so that is arbitrary and capricous in Genesis 2:16-17.

The bottom line is that "to eat" must be translated "to eat", and "to die" must be translated "to die".

The word "freely" in the English translations of Genesis 2:16 should not be used because the underlying Hebrew word truly means "to eat".

The word "surely" in the English translations of Genesis 2:17 should not be used because the underlying Hebrew word truly means "to die".

The word "may" in the English translations of Genesis 2:16 improperly represents the underlying Hebrew; rather, the word "will" (verb future tense) is appropriate based on the underlying Hebrew word.

part 1 of 2, please see next post
 
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Kermos

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post 2 of 2, continued from previous post.

Genesis 2:16-17 contains a command, the word "command" in Genesis 2:16 is singular, not plural, but singular, so all of the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17 is a single command. The word "may" in Genesis 2:16 used in the English translations linguistically reduces the command to a request because the option of eating from none of the trees would be valid with the word "may"; however, with the word "will" (verb future tense) then the Integrity of a command linguistically remains intact.

For the sake of consistency, if we apply the word "may" into the last of the final two words of Genesis 2:17, just as the English translators did in Genesis 2:16, then it becomes err apparent that the word "may" fails in that position for both verses. The result for Genesis 2:17 would be essentially "day you are to eat of it to die you may be dying" thus a potential punishment is expressed, so this is ambiguous. God is precise, so ambiguous does not work.

This demonstrates that the verbs used by God to construct the final two words of Genesis 2:16 and Genesis 2:17 do not contain the word "may".

For Genesis 2:16-17 to be true to form, conjugates of "eat" must be used for each of the final two words in Genesis 2:16, and conjugates of "die" must be used for each of the final two words in Genesis 2:17.

ERROR,ANOTHER LIE, ADAM was given a choice, not aganist God command, but aganist God's WARRING, for the scriptures are true,
Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope," BINGO, you might want to read that verse again.
Romans 8:21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."
BECAUSE?, BECAUSE?
this is the kind of nonesense I'm speaking of. deception straight out of the pit of hell. when will people truly believ the Word of God.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Notice that Romans 8:20 clearly eliminates free will with the words "not willingly", that is, eliminates "choice".

Notice that Romans 8:21 that God delivers creatures out of "bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God", so that is the work of God for God causes persons to be born again (John 3:3-8), so there is no free will nor choice therein.

Scripturally, just as the original post shows, Adam was not imparted free will, so no other creatures thereafter were imparted free will, in fact, Adam had a bound will being "bondage of corruption".
 
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Kermos

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Thank you @Kermos , for your well thought our reply. This is such a controversial subject, if ever there were one, lol. I am grateful you are being kind about it! :)
As far as God "God's plans have already happened in eternity", no, there is no specific scripture that does say that but it is sure inferred?
Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
Isaiah 14:24
"The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand."

And several other verses infer this to me, anyhow.

...snip


It's nice to continue this correspondence with you, Nancy,

Respecting the claim that "God's plans have already happened in eternity", there are a couple of points to consider:

  • is the claim substantiated in scripture?
  • what is the claim's impact? (this point is non-existent without affirmation of the first point)

@justbyfaith made the "God is outside of time" claim using Isaiah 57:15 earlier in this thread, but justbyfaith justdisappeared regarding the matter after this concluding post of that chain of posts, so I am bringing it back up now.


You presented these specific scriptures, Isaiah 14:24 and Isaiah 46:10, and you wrote these "infer" the claim for you.

When one "infers" subject matter into a text, then one puts something into the text; in other words, "inferring" is speaking to, yet reading is being spoken to, so to speak.

You admitted that neither Isaiah 14:24 nor Isaiah 46:10 express the claim, and I agree that the claim is absent from these verses.

Nancy and justbyfaith, inference of the claim results in adding to scripture.


In Isaiah 46:10, it is written "the things that are not yet done", so the claim contradicts the phrase, that is, the claim requires the phrase in Isaiah to be subtracted from scripture.


See the time reference of "planned" being past tense juxtaposed with "will it be" being future tense in Isaiah 14:24, "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand", so the Word of God expresses "the things that are not yet done" (Isaiah 46:10); therefore the claim contradicts the phrase in Isaiah 14:24.


Nancy and justbyfaith, the claim requires subtracting from scripture.


Listen to scripture to take this a step further with the declaration of Christ's disciples "Now we know that You know all things" (John 16:30).


So, God knows all things (John 16:30).

It is written of God “no purpose of Yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2).


Nothing, absolutely nothing, can be avoided by man which God knows will happen (Deuteronomy 32:39, 1 Samuel 2:6, Psalm 68:20, Isaiah 43:13).

God knows the names of persons to be saved before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8), yet there is no one capable of thwarting God's Hand.

God knowing things means exactly that, which is, God knows things. The claim presupposes the mechanism by which God knows the future; however, just as you admitted, scripture does not indicate such a mechanism.

Nancy and
justbyfaith, the content of the Word of God does not support the claim.

In conclusion,

  • yout inference for the claim results in adding to scripture.
  • the claim being inferred requires subtracting from scripture.
  • the content of the Word of God does not support the claim.

Back to the two points at the beginning of this post, the second point "what is the claim's impact" does not come into relevance because the "God's plans have already happened in eternity" claim is not affirmed in scripture.
 
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Nancy

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It's nice to continue this correspondence with you, Nancy,

Respecting the claim that "God's plans have already happened in eternity", there are a couple of points to consider:




    • is the claim substantiated in scripture?
    • what is the claim's impact? (this point is non-existent without affirmation of the first point)
@justbyfaith made the "God is outside of time" claim using Isaiah 57:15 earlier in this thread, but justbyfaith justdisappeared regarding the matter after this concluding post of that chain of posts, so I am bringing it back up now.

You presented these specific scriptures, Isaiah 14:24 and Isaiah 46:10, and you wrote these "infer" the claim for you.

When one "infers" subject matter into a text, then one puts something into the text; in other words, "inferring" is speaking to, yet reading is being spoken to, so to speak.

You admitted that neither Isaiah 14:24 nor Isaiah 46:10 express the claim, and I agree that the claim is absent from these verses.

Nancy and justbyfaith, inference of the claim results in adding to scripture.


In Isaiah 46:10, it is written "the things that are not yet done", so the claim contradicts the phrase, that is, the claim requires the phrase in Isaiah to be subtracted from scripture.


See the time reference of "planned" being past tense juxtaposed with "will it be" being future tense in Isaiah 14:24, "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand", so the Word of God expresses "the things that are not yet done" (Isaiah 46:10); therefore the claim contradicts the phrase in Isaiah 14:24.


Nancy and justbyfaith, the claim requires subtracting from scripture.


Listen to scripture to take this a step further with the declaration of Christ's disciples "Now we know that You know all things" (John 16:30).


So, God knows all things (John 16:30).

It is written of God “no purpose of Yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2).


Nothing, absolutely nothing, can be avoided by man which God knows will happen (Deuteronomy 32:39, 1 Samuel 2:6, Psalm 68:20, Isaiah 43:13).

God knows the names of persons to be saved before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8), yet there is no one capable of thwarting God's Hand.

God knowing things means exactly that, which is, God knows things. The claim presupposes the mechanism by which God knows the future; however, just as you admitted, scripture does not indicate such a mechanism.

Nancy and
justbyfaith, the content of the Word of God does not support the claim.

In conclusion,

  • yout inference for the claim results in adding to scripture.
  • the claim being inferred requires subtracting from scripture.
  • the content of the Word of God does not support the claim.

Back to the two points at the beginning of this post, the second point "what is the claim's impact" does not come into relevance because the "God's plans have already happened in eternity" claim is not affirmed in scripture.



Hi Kermos,

You asked:"is the claim substantiated in scripture?"

And below, in my post you are replying to, pretty much gives the answer...?
Also, i do not know if you are a Trinitarian or not but if you are, then show me those scriptures. I do not see this adding to scripture at all. God gives us only the information He wills,
Mine in blue:

As far as God "God's plans have already happened in eternity", no, there is no specific scripture that does say that but it is sure inferred?
Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
Isaiah 14:24
"The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand."

And several other verses infer this to me, anyhow." So, I initially did say that there were no specific scriptures that I knew of.

This can be seen as a time vs. eternity thing. Eternity has no beginning and no end. It's not like those living outside of time have to "wait" for next Thursday, lol.

Of course no-one could ever "thwart God's hand". That nor "adding or subtracting" from His Word was never my intention! I was simply speaking of His fore knowledge as to what is going to happen, now, and in the future.
After all, God does go before us :)

Deuteronomy 31:8
"8 And the Lord, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed."


Love you bro!
 

Truman

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It's nice to continue this correspondence with you, Nancy,

Respecting the claim that "God's plans have already happened in eternity", there are a couple of points to consider:




    • is the claim substantiated in scripture?
    • what is the claim's impact? (this point is non-existent without affirmation of the first point)
@justbyfaith made the "God is outside of time" claim using Isaiah 57:15 earlier in this thread, but justbyfaith justdisappeared regarding the matter after this concluding post of that chain of posts, so I am bringing it back up now.

You presented these specific scriptures, Isaiah 14:24 and Isaiah 46:10, and you wrote these "infer" the claim for you.

When one "infers" subject matter into a text, then one puts something into the text; in other words, "inferring" is speaking to, yet reading is being spoken to, so to speak.

You admitted that neither Isaiah 14:24 nor Isaiah 46:10 express the claim, and I agree that the claim is absent from these verses.

Nancy and justbyfaith, inference of the claim results in adding to scripture.


In Isaiah 46:10, it is written "the things that are not yet done", so the claim contradicts the phrase, that is, the claim requires the phrase in Isaiah to be subtracted from scripture.


See the time reference of "planned" being past tense juxtaposed with "will it be" being future tense in Isaiah 14:24, "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand", so the Word of God expresses "the things that are not yet done" (Isaiah 46:10); therefore the claim contradicts the phrase in Isaiah 14:24.


Nancy and justbyfaith, the claim requires subtracting from scripture.


Listen to scripture to take this a step further with the declaration of Christ's disciples "Now we know that You know all things" (John 16:30).


So, God knows all things (John 16:30).

It is written of God “no purpose of Yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2).


Nothing, absolutely nothing, can be avoided by man which God knows will happen (Deuteronomy 32:39, 1 Samuel 2:6, Psalm 68:20, Isaiah 43:13).

God knows the names of persons to be saved before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8), yet there is no one capable of thwarting God's Hand.

God knowing things means exactly that, which is, God knows things. The claim presupposes the mechanism by which God knows the future; however, just as you admitted, scripture does not indicate such a mechanism.

Nancy and
justbyfaith, the content of the Word of God does not support the claim.

In conclusion,

  • yout inference for the claim results in adding to scripture.
  • the claim being inferred requires subtracting from scripture.
  • the content of the Word of God does not support the claim.

Back to the two points at the beginning of this post, the second point "what is the claim's impact" does not come into relevance because the "God's plans have already happened in eternity" claim is not affirmed in scripture.
Trying to understand God and His eternal reality is like trying to explain 3 dimensions to a 2-dimensional being. It's why Jesus used parables to describe spiritual realities. I once had a vision of God's realm. The best way I can describe it is that it is awesome beyond words. Our words are not designed to describe such. :)
 

Kermos

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snip...

"In all of this, it is evident that man has a bond-will, not a free-will."

I see Christians as bond-servants to Christ when we joyfully serve Him, but one forced to serve to me, is not a "bond-servant" but kind of a slave? I do see myself as a "willing" slave (bond-servant?) to Christ but it is not a burden, and not forced.

T.U.L.I.P. Makes me very sad. Makes me lose hope and joy for family, friends and all the lost people I see around my neighborhood. My "thing" is to pray for the lost, pray for God to soften hearts and open eyes and ears to hear and see His Truth...HIM. It also has me wondering if God really is LOVE. Love encompasses all of His characteristics. His judgement, His wrath, all of it is JUST but, not so much if God purposely created some humans to be sent to hell. I think humans can do that pretty well on there own.

Mark 4:12
"That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

I know this is Jesus speaking of the Pharisees and scoffers but, it seems that if they DID perceive then, understand, then converted having their sins forgiven would mean, they would have had a choice.

Yes agreed that everything God does is for His glory, and He does work through us down here to bring others to Him. It is what I see over and over again in the word.
In the end, we will all know the whole, complete, unadulterated TRUTH, Amen!

Anyhow Kermos, we might not agree 100% here, but I can understand why some believe this doctrine. I am starting to think it is a bit of both! :eek::D

Again brother,
Good and kind and thoughtful post.
God bless and keep you in Him.
nancy

Hi Nancy,

I just wanted to explain that I split your post because I wanted to include @justbyfaith in the first part of the response since it related to justbyfaith's assertion.

Please see the next post for the part that did not specifically address what justbyfaith had brought up.
 
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