Am so naughty!!

aspen · Feb 19, 2011

I think this issue comes down to "what happened", rather than "what God planned and executed". Pharaoh was an evil man - he reaped the consequences of his actions. The person telling the story and those who wrote the story down, rightfully assigned the responsibility to God, but it was not an attempt to teach a lesson on freewill. Instead, the authors were commentating on the sovereignty of God. A poor analogy might be - "the man was forced to work over time by his boss" - it is not a statement about free will, but an explanation of the man's emotional state and attitude towards his boss when he chose to work over time.

I can picture a historian looking back on this statement, 2000 years from now and misinterpreting it as a commentary on the naked power of employers at the turn of the 21st century, when it is really more about how the employee felt about the situation and his response to it. On one hand it is accurate to say that the boss forced him to work over time because if he did not, he may have angered the boss and damaged his reputation; on the other hand, a boss really cannot physically force us to do anything - we have choices.

Many stories in the OT are misunderstood because we miss the point of the stories - most of the time, authors are not making theological statements in the same way authors do today - they are simply commentating on God's sovereignty. I am not suggesting that the author's of the Bible are guilty of inaccuracies - we are simply emphasizing the wrong parts of the stories.

Not sure if this makes sense.

Anastacia · Feb 19, 2011

judd said:
Hello, So what happens to those that God uses for dishonor? Will they go to hell or Heaven?

This is what I am saying!

God made us who we are no matter what we are! whether good or bad!, all to His Glory!

Remember Saul, later Paul?

He was once evil or wicked but later God changed him! Did that change come from his own will? off course NO!

In the sight of God, do we have our own will?

Haha, the will of Almighty God must be done!

We have free will. God makes a judgment about us. God's judgments are just. God gives the Holy Spirit to those He finds worthy. We are to continue in that worthiness.

aspen · Feb 19, 2011

Anastacia said:
We have free will. God makes a judgment about us. God's judgments are just. God gives the Holy Spirit to those He finds worthy. We are to continue in that worthiness.

The gift of the HS is not based on merit. God gives us His Spirit based on His Grace alone.

Anastacia · Feb 19, 2011

aspen said:
The gift of the HS is not based on merit. God gives us His Spirit based on His Grace alone.

apen, This is what I said in my previous post to which you commented: We have free will. God makes a judgment about us. God's judgments are just. God gives the Holy Spirit to those He finds worthy. We are to continue in that worthiness.

I only said what the Bible says. Read these scriptures:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

Did you see that in 2 Thessalonians? God's Word says "God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God..."

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Did you see that in Acts? God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey him.

Acts 15:7-8 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. [sup]8[/sup] God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

Did you see that? This scripture says God who knows the heart showed that he accepted them.

aspen · Feb 19, 2011

Anastacia said:
apen, This is what I said in my previous post to which you commented: We have free will. God makes a judgment about us. God's judgments are just. God gives the Holy Spirit to those He finds worthy. We are to continue in that worthiness.

I only said what the Bible says. Read these scriptures:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

Did you see that in 2 Thessalonians? God's Word says "God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God..."

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Did you see that in Acts? God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey him.

Acts 15:7-8 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. [sup]8[/sup] God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

Did you see that? This scripture says God who knows the heart showed that he accepted them.

I see the verses that you are using The problem is we are only counted as worthy after justification. The worthiness is not a result of our works - so in other words, God does not visit us one day and find us to be worthy and as a result give us His Holy Spirit. We get the Holy Spirit and as a result, we are seen as worthy. So, back to Pharaoh; he was just as sinful as Moses was, before God justified Moses. Moses was not justified or given the HS because God saw his heart and declared him worthy. So why was Moses justified and Pharaoh not justified?

Anastacia · Feb 20, 2011

aspen said:
My replies to aspen in blue.
I see the verses that you are using The problem is we are only counted as worthy after justification. The worthiness is not a result of our works

You have an excellent point about being counted as worthy after justification, and that is true, very good point. That's a reason why I said we have to continue in worthiness. But, I don't know if I agree with you about the "only" part. You said "only counted as worthy after justification." Don't forget, the Bible says "God, who knows the heart" and "showed that he accepted them" by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. So I will not say anymore that God counted us as worthy, therefore he gave us the Holy Spirit. But, God did first know our heart, and God made a judgment, and we had to obey. See again the scriptures I gave.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

- so in other words, God does not visit us one day and find us to be worthy and as a result give us His Holy Spirit. We get the Holy Spirit and as a result, we are seen as worthy.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying here. You say "God does not visit us one day and find us to be worthy"....but then you say "we get the Holy Spirit..." So, how did we get the Holy Spirit then? We have to call on the name of the Lord. We have to believe, we have to confess....there are things we have to do.
And read these scriptures:

Acts 17:27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

1 Chronicles 28:9 “And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

So again, what do you mean when you say "God does not visit us one day and find us to be worthy and as a result give us His Holy Spirit"? You tell me then how it happens.

So, back to Pharaoh; he was just as sinful as Moses was, before God justified Moses. Moses was not justified or given the HS because God saw his heart and declared him worthy. So why was Moses justified and Pharaoh not justified?

How can you say that Pharaoh was just as sinful as Moses was? Moses belonged to God. Like I said before.....God knows our hearts, God makes judgments

aspen · Feb 20, 2011

I think you made some good points - I will think about it and respond when I can

Anastacia · Feb 20, 2011

Maybe you like this better---God found us to be acceptable.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

aspen said:
I think you made some good points - I will think about it and respond when I can

Thanks, aspen. I'm glad to of studied with you.

jiggyfly · Feb 21, 2011

Disciple said:
There is a heaven and a hell, some go to heaven some go to hell.. Its not for me to judge who does and doesnt.. God gave man free will, but at the same time Gods will is always done.

Tis true there is a heaven and a hell. Tis also true that God accomplishes His will.
Here are a few other things that are declared in the scriptures and should be considered.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. Col.1:19&20

For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Romans 14:11

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:10&11

TexUs · Feb 21, 2011

aspen said:
I see. So people who are not God's people are used by Him in ways that do not help them, but actually hurt them, because they were created for Hell, anyway?

The potter can use the clay however he pleases, regardless of what the clay whines and cries about.

But to answer your question, yes... God creates some people for hell. Look at Pharaoh. It says both God and Pharaoh hardened his heart. You have to reconcile these but the point is that God, at some point, had a hand in it. He prevented Pharaoh from letting the people go.
Think about that. God tells Moses to ask Pharaoh to let his people go, and then God hardens Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't do it!

We have to wonder why he did it... The obvious answer should be, for his glory.

You wouldn't have the wonderful experiences and history of God's people (which all brought about his glory) if he wouldn't have done it that way.

So while you might consider it "hurt"- in his grand scheme of things it's always good. This is why we need to trust what he did was the right thing instead of questioning it all the time.

judd said:
In the sight of God, do we have our own will?

Not FREE will.
Free will is UNRESTRICTED will. Do we have completely free unrestricted will? No. Hence, we don't have free will.

Do we have a will? Yes, but it's not free will.

aspen said:
A poor analogy might be - "the man was forced to work over time by his boss" - it is not a statement about free will, but an explanation of the man's emotional state and attitude towards his boss when he chose to work over time.

But being under the boss, he had to do as the boss said. He didn't have a free will to chose of his own accord what to do. He was under his boss' rule.

The limitation of that analogy is of course, he could quit.

However, one cannot quit being under the sovereign rule of God.

Anastacia · Feb 21, 2011

God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. God does not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked. God is pleased when they turn from their ways and live. God takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. God says to them to repent and live! God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Paul says "(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God is the Savior of all men---but they have to do something---they have to believe. And they have to obey. All men have the choice and chance.

1 Timothy 2:4
Ezekiel 18:23
Ezekiel 18:32
1 Timothy 4:10
Titus 2:11
2 Peter 3:9

Duckybill · Feb 21, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Tis true there is a heaven and a hell. Tis also true that God accomplishes His will.
Here are a few other things that are declared in the scriptures and should be considered.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. Col.1:19&20

For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Romans 14:11

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:10&11

Jiggy's still trying to squeeze everyone into the Kingdom of God. "Do not be deceived" Jiggy.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Do you not know that THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

TexUs · Feb 21, 2011

Duckybill said:
Jiggy's still trying to squeeze everyone into the Kingdom of God. "Do not be deceived" Jiggy.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Do you not know that THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Actually, that's written to us. We're not to be deceived by what HE'S teaching. The Bible is pretty clear the situation false teachers are in. They'll be cursed by God.

jiggyfly · Feb 21, 2011

Duckybill said:
Jiggy's still trying to squeeze everyone into the Kingdom of God. "Do not be deceived" Jiggy.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Do you not know that THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

But eventually everyone becomes righteous in the same manner you have, through Christ.

TexUs said:
Actually, that's written to us. We're not to be deceived by what HE'S teaching. The Bible is pretty clear the situation false teachers are in. They'll be cursed by God.

The religious folk thought the same of Jesus so I'm not worried with your opinion.

Anastacia said:
God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. God does not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked. God is pleased when they turn from their ways and live. God takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. God says to them to repent and live! God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Paul says "(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God is the Savior of all men---but they have to do something---they have to believe. And they have to obey. All men have the choice and chance.

1 Timothy 2:4
Ezekiel 18:23
Ezekiel 18:32
1 Timothy 4:10
Titus 2:11
2 Peter 3:9

So do you believe God is sovereign? Is He powerful enough for His Word to accomplish what He purposes?

TexUs · Feb 21, 2011

jiggyfly said:
The religious folk thought the same of Jesus so I'm not worried with your opinion.

So you think you teach with the same authority of Jesus, do you?

jiggyfly said:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

Keep reading.
"BUT"!!!! Notice that word "But" that follows? But always negates something.

Peter just said that, BUT..... The day will come like a thief and it will be too late for them.

Poor evidence for your view.

jiggyfly said:
For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. Col.1:19&20

There's no indication that this has anything to do with saving lives though... It reads properly as God putting the world back to how he intended it to be. This includes the removal of evil.

jiggyfly said:
For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Romans 14:11

Romans 6... The people confessed and proclaimed and KNEW who it was that was punishing them but it doesn't mean they believed nor accepted.

You've got to try much harder.

You can't ignore the verses that don't support your position (as you claim). If you must ignore scripture then 100% of the time your position is wrong.

Duckybill · Feb 21, 2011

jiggyfly said:
But eventually everyone becomes righteous in the same manner you have, through Christ.

Then I can't lose, but you can.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into THE EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

jiggyfly · Feb 21, 2011

Duckybill said:
Then I can't lose, but you can.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into THE EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

I understand your reasoning I used to think the same way.

TexUs said:
So you think you teach with the same authority of Jesus, do you?

Keep reading.
"BUT"!!!! Notice that word "But" that follows? But always negates something.

Peter just said that, BUT..... The day will come like a thief and it will be too late for them.

Poor evidence for your view.

There's no indication that this has anything to do with saving lives though... It reads properly as God putting the world back to how he intended it to be. This includes the removal of evil.

Romans 6... The people confessed and proclaimed and KNEW who it was that was punishing them but it doesn't mean they believed nor accepted.

You've got to try much harder.

You can't ignore the verses that don't support your position (as you claim). If you must ignore scripture then 100% of the time your position is wrong.

Try harder at what? Convincing you, nah I have no need to convince you of anything, your opinion is just that an opinion and no more valuable than mine or anyone else's here.I just posted some scriptures for the other readers to consider.

TexUs · Feb 21, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Try harder at what? Convincing you, nah I have no need to convince you of anything, your opinion is just that an opinion and no more valuable than mine or anyone else's here.I just posted some scriptures for the other readers to consider.

It's not my opinion it's what's Biblical.

If you must ignore scripture then 100% of the time your position is wrong.

Duckybill · Feb 21, 2011

jiggyfly said:
I understand your reasoning I used to think the same way.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

Anastacia · Feb 21, 2011

jiggyfly said:
So do you believe God is sovereign? Is He powerful enough for His Word to accomplish what He purposes?

Of course God is Sovereign. And we are given a choice. As the Bible says, some will be saved, and some won't. Please read and consider carefully these scriptures:

The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. [sup]21[/sup] Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. Revelation 9:20-21

So, are your beliefs that people who don't repent still get to be saved?

Am so naughty!!

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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