Am so naughty!!

aspen · Feb 22, 2011

Anastacia said:
Maybe you like this better---God found us to be acceptable.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

Thanks, aspen. I'm glad to of studied with you.

Yes, this is an interesting topic.

My only reservation for not totally agreeing with you is that I have been taught that we are tainted by Original Sin, therefore, before justification, we are sinful and without any merit, whatsoever. If this is true, how can God see us as worthy or even acceptable enough to receive His Spirit?

This may not be an answerable question.......

aspen · Feb 22, 2011

quote name='TexUs'
The potter can use the clay however he pleases, regardless of what the clay whines and cries about.

We may always disagree with each other on the point. God has limited Himself by His nature and His ethics/laws. Even clay is limited - no matter how much a potter wants to build a 747 that can fly across the country with his small mound of clay - it is not possible.

But to answer your question, yes... God creates some people for hell. Look at Pharaoh. It says both God and Pharaoh hardened his heart. You have to reconcile these but the point is that God, at some point, had a hand in it. He prevented Pharaoh from letting the people go.
Think about that. God tells Moses to ask Pharaoh to let his people go, and then God hardens Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't do it!

It doesn't seem possible from what I know to be true about the nature and character of God

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
[font="Verdana][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]I think it is much more plausible that Pharaoh's heart being hardened was a description of what happened rather than God purposely hardening a person's heart[/size]
[/font]
We have to wonder why he did it... The obvious answer should be, for his glory.

My friend used to put tomato worms under a magnifying glass in the hot sun for his own amusement and glory - God does not torture us for His own glory.

You wouldn't have the wonderful experiences and history of God's people (which all brought about his glory) if he wouldn't have done it that way.

Why not? The condition of Pharaoh's heart really has little to do with the Exodus. It would have been just as exciting and miraculous if Pharaoh was immediately compliant.

So while you might consider it "hurt"- in his grand scheme of things it's always good. This is why we need to trust what he did was the right thing instead of questioning it all the time.

Sounds like ends justifying the means......

Not FREE will.
Free will is UNRESTRICTED will. Do we have completely free unrestricted will? No. Hence, we don't have free will.

Under this definition, freewill does not exist with us or God.

Do we have a will? Yes, but it's not free will.

We have freewill, but it is restricted by our nature - same situation with God.

But being under the boss, he had to do as the boss said. He didn't have a free will to chose of his own accord what to do. He was under his boss' rule. The limitation of that analogy is of course, he could quit.

The employee's reaction to his bosses request for overtime is only limited by the man's imagination - of course, there are always consequences for our actions, but this is a separate issue from freewill.

However, one cannot quit being under the sovereign rule of God.

Now, this is an interesting statement - will you elaborate?

TexUs said:
It's not my opinion it's what's Biblical.

[font="tahoma]If you must ignore scripture then 100% of the time your position is wrong.[/font]

All we can do is give our opinion about scripture

jiggyfly · Feb 22, 2011

Anastacia said:
Of course God is Sovereign. And we are given a choice. As the Bible says, some will be saved, and some won't. Please read and consider carefully these scriptures:

The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. [sup]21[/sup] Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. Revelation 9:20-21

So, are your beliefs that people who don't repent still get to be saved?

No, actually I believe that every knee bows and every tongue confesses allegiance to God and that all are reconciled back to Father through the Son, Yeshua. Many will go through hell before they are reconciled, but all will be reconciled as the scriptures declare.

Duckybill · Feb 22, 2011

jiggyfly said:
No, actually I believe that every knee bows and every tongue confesses allegiance to God and that all are reconciled back to Father through the Son, Yeshua. Many will go through hell before they are reconciled, but all will be reconciled as the scriptures declare.

Punishment in THE FIRE is EVERLASTING.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into THE EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

Anastacia · Feb 22, 2011

jiggyfly said:
No, actually I believe that every knee bows and every tongue confesses allegiance to God and that all are reconciled back to Father through the Son, Yeshua. Many will go through hell before they are reconciled, but all will be reconciled as the scriptures declare.

Read what Duckybill said. And read this too:

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

jiggyfly, These scriptures should make you give up your false beliefs.

TexUs · Feb 22, 2011

aspen said:
My only reservation for not totally agreeing with you is that I have been taught that we are tainted by Original Sin, therefore, before justification, we are sinful and without any merit, whatsoever. If this is true, how can God see us as worthy or even acceptable enough to receive His Spirit?

If you believe we have to be "worthy" to receive Him then you've totally missed the point of the gospel.

aspen said:
We may always disagree with each other on the point. God has limited Himself by His nature and His ethics/laws. Even clay is limited - no matter how much a potter wants to build a 747 that can fly across the country with his small mound of clay - it is not possible.

Surely you realize it's an analogy, right?

When God is the potter, he doesn't use clay. He can freaking SPEAK into BEING what he wants to happen.

You can, again, whine and cry about God being God, but it won't change that God is God and can do what he wants to do.

aspen said:
It doesn't seem possible from what I know to be true about the nature and character of God
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
I think it is much more plausible that Pharaoh's heart being hardened was a description of what happened rather than God purposely hardening a person's heart

Then you need to read the Bible more about the nature and character of God.
God doesn't "want" anyone to perish. Just like you don't "want" to spank your child. But he's holy and just. He has ordained and declared death to those who disobey him.
He would be a liar if he didn't follow through with what he said.

You are also TOTALLY IGNORING the part that says, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". Either reconcile it or come to grips with the fact God had a hand in it.
Again, if you must ignore scripture, then 100% of the time, your position is wrong.

aspen said:
We have to wonder why he did it... The obvious answer should be, for his glory.
My friend used to put tomato worms under a magnifying glass in the hot sun for his own amusement and glory - God does not torture us for His own glory.

You apparently don't know what glory is by your bastardization of the term, here.

aspen said:
Why not? The condition of Pharaoh's heart really has little to do with the Exodus. It would have been just as exciting and miraculous if Pharaoh was immediately compliant.

So God's power in the situation would not have happened. No plagues. No display of power to the people.

Instead, the people would have credited Moses for getting Pharaoh to let them go.

It's perfectly clear why God did it the way he did it. To let his glory, his name, and his power be known.

aspen said:
Under this definition, freewill does not exist with us or God.

Exactly right.

aspen said:
We have freewill, but it is restricted

If it's restricted it's not free.

Duckybill said:
Punishment in THE FIRE is EVERLASTING.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into THE EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

Additionally, Revelation 20:10 tells us even more about the fire.

This passage does not make it a point to talk about unbelievers, however it's clear Satan's destination is eternal torment.
Matthew 25 tells us this that more than the beast, prophet, and devil will go there.

Anastacia · Feb 22, 2011

aspen said:
Yes, this is an interesting topic.

My only reservation for not totally agreeing with you is that I have been taught that we are tainted by Original Sin, therefore, before justification, we are sinful and without any merit, whatsoever. If this is true, how can God see us as worthy or even acceptable enough to receive His Spirit?

This may not be an answerable question.......

Of course it is an answerable question...you just don't like the answer.

What do you mean we are without any merit? God likes a repentant sinner!

I've given you scriptures that show we have to do something. And if God tells you to do something, and says we will be saved and receive His Holy Spirit---then you did something right.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

jiggyfly · Feb 22, 2011

Duckybill said:
Punishment in THE FIRE is EVERLASTING.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into THE EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

Not according to the Greek texts but we have been over this before and you choose to believe the KJV translators corrupted transliteration.

Do you know what the just punishment is for sin according to the scriptures? I'll give you a hint, it is not unending torment. As a matter fact I would like you to show me in the scriptures where unending torment is a just punishment for any wrong doing?

Duckybill · Feb 22, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Not according to the Greek texts but we have been over this before and you choose to believe the KJV translators corrupted transliteration.

Perhaps you need to brush up on your Greek. Care to retract your statement Jiggy? There will be MANY who spend eternity in THE FIRE who don't believe in it. You're getting desperate Jiggy.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into THE EVERLASTING FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (ASV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (AMP)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels!

Matthew 25:41 (BBE)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then will he say to those on the left, Go from me, you cursed ones, into THE ETERNAL FIRE which is ready for the Evil One and his angels:

Matthew 25:41 (Darby)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into ETERNAL FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:41 (ESV)
[sup]41 [/sup]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 (GW)
[sup]41 [/sup]“Then the king will say to those on his left, ‘Get away from me! God has cursed you! Go into EVERLASTING FIRE that was prepared for the devil and his angels!

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
[sup]41 [/sup]"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:41 (NIV)
[sup]41 [/sup]"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (NLT)
[sup]41 [/sup]“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into THE ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his demons.

Matthew 25:41 (NRSV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into THE ETERNAL FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (MaceNT)
[sup]41 [/sup]then will he say to those on the left, depart from me ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 (NASB77)
[sup]41 [/sup]"Then He will also say to those on His left, ' Depart from Me, accursed ones, into THE ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:41 (TLB)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then I will turn to those on my left and say, ’Away with you, you cursed ones, into THE ETERNAL FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (WesleyNT)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then shall he say also to them on his left-hand, Depart from me, ye cursed into THE EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels. prepared for the devil and his angels:

aspen · Feb 22, 2011

Anastacia said:
Of course it is an answerable question...you just don't like the answer.

What do you mean we are without any merit? God likes a repentant sinner!

I've given you scriptures that show we have to do something. And if God tells you to do something, and says we will be saved and receive His Holy Spirit---then you did something right.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

Anastacia - I am starting to believe that you cannot see how your posts sound when I read them so I am going to give you some insight into how I perceive your post the first time I read it. I am not attacking you or picking on you. I just think it is important for you to have this information so you can do with it what you will.

"Of course it is an answerable question....you just don't like the answer"

My interpretation: I am either stupid for not seeing the obvious answer or stubborn for refusing to acknowledge the right answer.

"What do you mean we are without merit"

My interpretation: I am not being clear or I am making a claim so [font="arial][size="2"]preposterous that it doesn't make sense.[/size][/font]
[font="arial] [/font]
[b][font="arial][size="2"][font="arial][size="3"]"I've given you scriptures that show we have to do something."[/size][/font][/size][/font][/b]

My interpretation: You've done everything you can to point out the obvious and cannot understand why I refuse to accept the obvious conclusion

"God likes a repentant sinner!"

My interpretation: God like sinners who repent so He must see unjustified sinners as either worthy to receive His HS or not.

"And if God tells you to do something, and says we will be saved and receive His Holy Spirit---then you did something right."

My interpretation: God rewards people for making a good choice and asking for forgiveness.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

My interpretation: Look how obvious this idea is - even Luke tells us that God knows the heart and proves His acceptance of us by giving us His Spirit

So, in order for me to respond to your post, I have to re-read it at least three times before I can look past your choice of words and give you the benefit of the doubt - that you are simply trying to tell me something important rather than being indignant. I wish it were not this way because I really do like talking about these types of ideas, but I do not like being dismissed for not agreeing with you - and this is what it feels like to me quite often.

So do with this what you will.

As far as my response; I believe God chooses us rather than us choosing Him so it is difficult for me to accept the idea that a sinner can make a good decision before he or she is justified. So, if you are actually saying that God helps those who ask for His Spirit by helping them respond positively to His call - I can agree with you. However, I am still left to wonder about Pharaoh because it seems to me that he ( like all sinners before justification already had a hard heart) was being refused by God - even if he wanted to believe, God was stopping Him - this does not sound like the God I know - the same God who sent his Son to die for the sins of the whole world.

Instead, it makes more sense for me to believe that the writers of the OT described Pharaoh's stubborn refusal to let the Israelites go as God hardening his heart. I am wondering why this interpretation does not make sense to you.

blessings

Anastacia · Feb 22, 2011

aspen said:
My replies to aspen in blue:

Anastacia - I am starting to believe that you cannot see how your posts sound when I read them so I am going to give you some insight into how I perceive your post the first time I read it. I am not attacking you or picking on you. I just think it is important for you to have this information so you can do with it what you will.

What you think of me is not important to me. I have a clear conscience. I answer to God.
And this type of posting from you is wrong to do. Stop personally attacking. This isn't a place to personally analyze people. It isn't fair and it isn't right.
It isn't right for you to put words in my mouth, and twist what I do say. With you---no one needs to be careful how they speak!--you just come on and post what we didn't say as if we did!
Do you want me and others to tell you what we personally think of you? Do you want us to analyze you, and what we think you are really thinking and saying? You need to stop.

"Of course it is an answerable question....you just don't like the answer"

My interpretation: I am either stupid for not seeing the obvious answer or stubborn for refusing to acknowledge the right answer.

"What do you mean we are without merit"

My interpretation: I am not being clear or I am making a claim so [font="arial][size="2"]preposterous that it doesn't make sense.[/size][/font]
[font="arial] [/font]
[b][font="arial][size="2"][font="arial][size="3"]"I've given you scriptures that show we have to do something."[/size][/font][/size][/font][/b]

My interpretation: You've done everything you can to point out the obvious and cannot understand why I refuse to accept the obvious conclusion

"God likes a repentant sinner!"

My interpretation: God like sinners who repent so He must see unjustified sinners as either worthy to receive His HS or not.

"And if God tells you to do something, and says we will be saved and receive His Holy Spirit---then you did something right."

My interpretation: God rewards people for making a good choice and asking for forgiveness.

People can read God's Word telling us to repent, yet people don't believe what they read. God says repent. And you wonder if we can do that on our own; you wonder if it is right to then get saved for doing what God says!?! God tells you to do something....then do it. The Bible tells you how to be saved.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

My interpretation: Look how obvious this idea is - even Luke tells us that God knows the heart and proves His acceptance of us by giving us His Spirit

So, in order for me to respond to your post, I have to re-read it at least three times before I can look past your choice of words and give you the benefit of the doubt - that you are simply trying to tell me something important rather than being indignant. I wish it were not this way because I really do like talking about these types of ideas, but I do not like being dismissed for not agreeing with you - and this is what it feels like to me quite often.

So do with this what you will.

As far as my response; I believe God chooses us rather than us choosing Him so it is difficult for me to accept the idea that a sinner can make a good decision before he or she is justified.
Then you do not accept what the Word of God plainly says.

So, if you are actually saying that God helps those who ask for His Spirit by helping them respond positively to His call - I can agree with you.
Show me where from the scriptures that say what you just said. That is not biblical. God tells us he wants all to repent and be saved. God tells us why people don't repent and be saved. I gave a list before of scriptures telling why people don't repent and be saved, and no where does it say because God didn't help them. It's a choice.

However, I am still left to wonder about Pharaoh because it seems to me that he ( like all sinners before justification already had a hard heart) was being refused by God - even if he wanted to believe, God was stopping Him - this does not sound like the God I know - the same God who sent his Son to die for the sins of the whole world.

Are you feeling sorry for and identifying with the Pharaoh? I used to do that before I was saved. For example, I would read about the people who were killed in the desert when they were with Moses, and I wouldn't understand why they were destroyed. I felt kind of sorry for them, because I really didn't know why they were destroyed, therefore I even kind of identified myself with them.

People here already gave you scripture showing why God hardened Pharaoh's heart. And remember, Pharaoh had a hard heart to begin with. You are trying to figure out why God raised up Pharaoh that God might display His power in him and that His name might be proclaimed in all the earth?
Do you think God should just make us all automatically believe in Him?

Instead, it makes more sense for me to believe that the writers of the OT described Pharaoh's stubborn refusal to let the Israelites go as God hardening his heart. I am wondering why this interpretation does not make sense to you.

blessings

jiggyfly · Feb 22, 2011

Duckybill said:
Perhaps you need to brush up on your Greek. Care to retract your statement Jiggy? There will be MANY who spend eternity in THE FIRE who don't believe in it. You're getting desperate Jiggy.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into THE EVERLASTING FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (ASV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (AMP)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels!

Matthew 25:41 (BBE)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then will he say to those on the left, Go from me, you cursed ones, into THE ETERNAL FIRE which is ready for the Evil One and his angels:

Matthew 25:41 (Darby)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into ETERNAL FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:41 (ESV)
[sup]41 [/sup]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 (GW)
[sup]41 [/sup]“Then the king will say to those on his left, ‘Get away from me! God has cursed you! Go into EVERLASTING FIRE that was prepared for the devil and his angels!

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
[sup]41 [/sup]"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:41 (NIV)
[sup]41 [/sup]"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (NLT)
[sup]41 [/sup]“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into THE ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his demons.

Matthew 25:41 (NRSV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into THE ETERNAL FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (MaceNT)
[sup]41 [/sup]then will he say to those on the left, depart from me ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 (NASB77)
[sup]41 [/sup]"Then He will also say to those on His left, ' Depart from Me, accursed ones, into THE ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:41 (TLB)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then I will turn to those on my left and say, ’Away with you, you cursed ones, into THE ETERNAL FIRE

Matthew 25:41 (WesleyNT)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then shall he say also to them on his left-hand, Depart from me, ye cursed into THE EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels. prepared for the devil and his angels:

Them are all English words. Do you know the difference between English and Greek???

Duckybill · Feb 22, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Them are all English words. Do you know the difference between English and Greek???

Them?

jiggyfly · Feb 22, 2011

Duckybill said:
Them?

Yeah them there words you posted. LOL

Duckybill · Feb 22, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Yeah them there words you posted. LOL

Not trying to be rude Jiggy but you're trying to convince us that you know Greek better than all those I quoted.

jiggyfly · Feb 22, 2011

Duckybill said:
Not trying to be rude Jiggy but you're trying to convince us that you know Greek better than all those I quoted.

Not at all but referring to other English translations is not referencing the Greek text either.

Duckybill · Feb 22, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Not at all but referring to other English translations is not referencing the Greek text either.

You clearly implied that you know Greek well enough to correct our English Bibles, even calling them CORRUPT.

You wrote in post #48:
"Not according to the Greek texts but we have been over this before and you choose to believe the KJV translators corrupted transliteration."

Why don't you just admit that you're not qualified to re-write our Bibles and drop it? Hell Fire is EVERLASTING whether anyone likes it or not.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [sup]10 [/sup]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [sup]11 [/sup]And the smoke of their torment ascends FOREVER AND EVER; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

aspen · Feb 22, 2011

[font="tahoma][size="2"]
What you think of me is not important to me. I have a clear conscience. I answer to God. And this type of posting from you is wrong to do. Stop personally attacking. This isn't a place to personally analyze people. It isn't fair and it isn't right.
It isn't right for you to put words in my mouth, and twist what I do say. With you---no one needs to be careful how they speak!--you just come on and post what we didn't say as if we did!
Do you want me and others to tell you what we personally think of you? Do you want us to analyze you, and what we think you are really thinking and saying? You need to stop.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][b][size="2"]Like I told you in my initial statement; I am not attacking you or picking on you. I am trying to let you know that your posts sound condescending - I was being as gentle as I possibly could. I am not sure why you are incapable of receiving feedback, but that is your issue, not mine. I guess I was hoping that you had changed, and we could have civil conversations - I guess that was too much to hope for. It may not matter to you how your posts sound to others, but it certainly matters to me.[/size][/b][/font]
[font="tahoma][b][size="2"] [/size][/b][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]BTW I never put words in your mouth - I do not even understand this accusation.....
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]People can read God's Word telling us to repent, yet people don't believe what they read. God says repent. And you wonder if we can do that on our own; you wonder if it is right to then get saved for doing what God says!?! God tells you to do something....then do it. The Bible tells you how to be saved. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
Luke 10:22
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.[font="Verdana]”[/font][/b][/color][/size]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]
[/font] [font="Verdana][color="#FF0000"]Like I said before - God chooses us - we do not choose Him.
[/font]
[font="tahoma][/font][/color][/size][color=#0000FF][font=tahoma][b]Then you do not accept what the Word of God plainly says.[/b][/font][/color]
[color=#0000FF][font=tahoma][/font][/color][color="#0000FF"][font="tahoma][b]
[/b][/font][/color][font="tahoma][size="2"]Here is a familiar statement - if I do not agree with you, I must not believe what the Bible plainly says.[/font]

I gave a list before of scriptures telling why people don't repent and be saved, and no where does it say because God didn't help them. It's a choice.

According to scripture, we are not able to choose God unless Jesus reveals the Father to us.

[font="tahoma][b]Are you feeling sorry for and identifying with the Pharaoh? I used to do that before I was saved. For example, I would read about the people who were killed in the desert when they were with Moses, and I wouldn't understand why they were destroyed. I felt kind of sorry for them, because I really didn't know why they were destroyed, therefore I even kind of identified myself with them. [/b][/font][/color][/size]
[color="#0000FF"][font="tahoma][b] [/b][/font][/color]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]I am not feeling sorry for Pharaoh because I do not believe God hardened his heart - I believe the phrase "God hardened his heart" is a literary deviced used to describe Pharaoh's decision. [/font]

[font="tahoma][b]People here already gave you scripture showing why God hardened Pharaoh's heart. And remember, Pharaoh had a hard heart to begin with. You are trying to figure out why God[/b][b] [/b][b]raised up Pharaoh that God might display His power in him and that His name might be proclaimed in all the earth?
Do you think God should just make us all automatically believe in Him? [/b][/font][/color][/size]
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[font="tahoma][color="#FF0000"]We all have hard hearts to begin with - I am not sure why you cannot see this. So my question again is why did God choose to treat Pharaoh differently than he treated you or I? Why are we in a saving relationship with Jesus, and Pharaoh continued to receive a hard heart?
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[font="tahoma]Instead, it makes more sense for me to believe that the writers of the OT described Pharaoh's stubborn refusal to let the Israelites go as God hardening his heart. I am wondering why this interpretation does not make sense to you.[/font]

[font="tahoma]blessings[/font][/b][/color][/size]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]For the sake of peace on the board, we may just have to avoid each other because we do not seem to be able to make statements without feeling attacked.[/font]

Anastacia · Feb 23, 2011

aspen said:
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My replies to aspen in green.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][b][size="2"]Like I told you in my initial statement; I am not attacking you or picking on you. I am trying to let you know that your posts sound condescending - I was being as gentle as I possibly could. I am not sure why you are incapable of receiving feedback, but that is your issue, not mine. I guess I was hoping that you had changed, and we could have civil conversations - I guess that was too much to hope for. It may not matter to you how your posts sound to others, but it certainly matters to me.[/size][/b][/font]

You can deny it all you want, but that doesn't make it so, because you are picking on me and attacking me. I'm beginning to think it is a game to you. I'm going to do what the Bible says and ignore all your insults and personal attacks.
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Luke 10:22
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.[font="Verdana]”[/font][/b][/color][/size]
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[/font] [font="Verdana][color="#ff0000"]Like I said before - God chooses us - we do not choose Him.

aspen, try obeying Jesus' teachings, then Jesus might choose to reveal the Father to you.

I think Catholics have a hard time understanding what is obeying the Word of God.

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According to scripture, we are not able to choose God unless Jesus reveals the Father to us.

Again, obey Jesus' teachings, and Jesus may reveal the Father to you.
I'm trying to help you. Here is a personal question, I know you don't have to answer me, but please ask yourself this question: What have I been doing that Jesus commands?

[font="tahoma][b] [/b][/font][/color]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]I am not feeling sorry for Pharaoh because I do not believe God hardened his heart - I believe the phrase "God hardened his heart" is a literary deviced used to describe Pharaoh's decision. [/size][/font]

What you say here is a good example of not accepting God's Word. Lean not on your own understanding. If you obey God and believe and obey what God says....it will be revealed to you later why it was right to obey.

[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#ff0000"]We all have hard hearts to begin with - I am not sure why you cannot see this. So my question again is why did God choose to treat Pharaoh differently than he treated you or I? Why are we in a saving relationship with Jesus, and Pharaoh continued to receive a hard heart?

Not everyone has a hard heart.
[/font]
[font="tahoma]Instead, it makes more sense for me to believe that the writers of the OT described Pharaoh's stubborn refusal to let the Israelites go as God hardening his heart. I am wondering why this interpretation does not make sense to you.

[color="#008000"]You are leaning on your own understanding. And you probably do that with other scriptures too. Trust God and His Word, even when you do not yet understand.

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aspen · Feb 23, 2011

This will most likely be my last post to you Anastacia

"You can deny it all you want, but that doesn't make it so, because you are picking on me and attacking me. I'm beginning to think it is a game to you. I'm going to do what the Bible says and ignore all your insults and personal attacks."

I simply asked you to be respectful in our conversations - if you believe I am attacking you there is nothing I can do about it. I will always refuse to be talked to in the manner you choose to talk to me and others.

On the other hand, you have accused me of:

1. Not obeying Christ
2. Not accepting God's Word
3. Relying on my own understanding of the scriptures
4. Claiming that Catholics have a hard time obeying Christ.
5. Playing games just to hurt you.

I haven't said a word about the quality of your relationship with Christ - yet you feel free to make negative comments about my relationship with Christ AND you also get to be the victim. You attack / deny it AND then you claim to be the only person who is being attacked!

I am not sure when you started believing that your understanding of scripture beats out everyone else's, but I think it is a dangerous way to live.

In any case, I will be praying for you

blessings
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Am so naughty!!

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“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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