Just heard about the rosary....

That's right, Foreigner - stick to your original statement, no matter what evidence is presented. I am sure the more you repeat it, the more it will magically come true - right? Talk about 'vain repetition' - LOL

-- Since no evidence was presented, why NOT stick with the original statement.
Each scripture that you linked to a specific sentence of the Hail Mary is Mary-Focused. Not Christ centered. Go read them again...


Taken right from the playbook of FOX. If you cannot twist your opponents words to make him look like a hypocrite; simply ignore all information he presents and repeat your original position! At least you are predictable.

-- Your third reference to FOX in two days. Yet I'M predictable lol.
It is more than humorous (and enjoyable) to see that an organization that doesn't know you exist can get so deeply implanted under your skin.
Bet that twitch in the corner of your eye is getting worse....


Thanks for reminding me why answering your posts with scripture is completely useless,

-- When the scripture you present doesn't support the position you put forth, then of course it is useless.
Again, every verse that you attached to every line of the Hail Mary is Mary-Focused, not Christ centered.
Go read them again.



Once again, you are not here to have a discussion between equals - only to assert your opinion at all costs.

-- Hmmmm.....and how exactly are you NOT doing that?


And you still have not addressed this:

Catholics say the Hail Mary 53 times in a standard 5-decade Rosary (compared to the Lord's prayer which is said only six times)....

This although Jesus Himself taught us that the Our Father was the correct way to pray, not the Hail Mary.
"This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name," - Matt 6:9

So what you're still trying to sell is that "to focus on the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Jesus" in a "very pleasing and meaningful way" ....it is better to pray the Hail Mary instead of praying the way Jesus actually taught us to.

The idea that the focus of the Rosary is Jesus is made even harder to buy when you realize this is one of the closing prayers of the Rosary:

"Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy;
our life, out sweetness, and our hope. To
thee do we cry, poor banished children of
Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this veil of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine
eyes of mercy towards us. And after this,
And after this, our exile, show us the blessed
fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, o loving,
o sweet virgin Mary. Pray for us oh holy mother
of God, that we may be made worthy of the
promises of Christ. Amen. "

There are so many thing wrong with that prayer, not the least of which is, "Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy; our life."

Foreigner, read carefully the first chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke, [ Luke 1:25-55 ] It is very hard to understand how any Christian can study this passage and then refuse to honor Mary. Why, the "Hall Mary," which Catholics love to address to the Blessed Virgin, is explicitly given there; part of it was said by the angel Gabriel and part by Elizabeth. The angel was inspired by God and Elizabeth "was filled with the Holy Ghost" (v. 41). Let us put together the words that the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth addressed to Mary: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed are thou among women" (v. 28). "Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." Here we have the salutation that Catholics address to Mary. The only addition we have made are the two names, "Mary" and "Jesus." So that, in saying the Hail, Mary, Catholics are explicitly following the Bible.
You will notice, that Mary in that sublime canticle known as the ' Magnificat " which is recorded by the inspired writer from verse 46 to 55, declared: "Behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (v. 48). Who, I ask you, fulfills this prophecy: those who refuse to apply the adjective' blessed' to the Virgin Mary, or Catholics, who love to call Mary the Blessed Virgin?

lol Neo, I know what each line of the Hail Mary is to indicate, and I understand the implications you imply in Luke.
But there is a big difference between calling someone "blessed" and praising them in prayer.

And as far as Luke 1:48, Mary saying "From now on all generations will call me blessed" is NOT the same as "From now on all generations will bless me and pray to me."

The New Test. (along with the O.T) is replete with people who have been called by, used by, and blessed by God.
Each and every one of them could say "from now on all generations will call me blessed" because they were mightily used of God.

Mary was blessed. So was Peter. And Joseph. And Paul. And Stephen (who was blessed with a martyr's death) and Timothy...

But it all comes back to this: There is no way you can say that Jesus is being focused on in the Rosary when you praise and pray to Mary 53 times, but only pray the Our Father (the actual way Jesus Himself taught us to pray) a mere six times.

Again, that is especially obvious when one of the final prayers on the Rosary is:

Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy;
our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To
thee do we cry, poor banished children of
Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this veil of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine
eyes of mercy towards us. And after this,
And after this, our exile, show us the blessed
fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, o loving,
o sweet virgin Mary. Pray for us oh holy mother
of God, that we may be made worthy of the
promises of Christ. Amen. "

There are so many things wrong with that prayer, not the least of which is that YOU ARE PRAISING AND PRAYING TO SOMEONE OTHER THAN JESUS.

FIrst off, Mary is not "our life".......Jesus alone is
Mary is not "our hope".........we hope in Jesus alone
"To thee we cry"..........In your deepest time of need it should be Jesus you cry out to, not Mary

What it says in Luke does NOT justify or authorize spending time on your knees praising and praying to Mary.

Jesus died on the cross so that we can speak to Him directly. He loves us more than we can comprehend and wants to be involved intimately in every single facet of our lives.

Jesus sits at the right hand of The Father as our advocate. He is waiting in anticipation to hear from us because He loves us.

There is no need to pray to Mary to "grease the wheels" for intimacy with or approval from Jesus.




.

Foreigner said:

The idea that the focus of the Rosary is Jesus is made even harder to buy when you realize this is one of the closing prayers of the Rosary:

Click to expand...

"Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy [Jesus]; our life [Jesus], out sweetness[Jesus], and our hope [Jesus].
Mary is the mother of Jesus who is Mercy and Jesus is our life, our sweetness, and our hope.

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this veil of tears.
We (the banished children of Eve) are addressing Mary

Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us.
Mary (our gracious intercessor) is merciful as we are all called to be merciful

And after this, And after this, our exile,
When we die

show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Show us Jesus – Mary always points us to Jesus

O clement, o loving, o sweet virgin Mary.
She is all of these

Pray for us oh holy mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Amen. "
Asking for her intercession for the above.

There are so many thing wrong with that prayer, not the least of which is, "Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy; our life."
You need to understand Catholic prayers as Catholics pray them not with your twisted anti-catholic perspective.

Foreigner said:

lol Neo, I know what each line of the Hail Mary is to indicate, and I understand the implications you imply in Luke.
But there is a big difference between calling someone "blessed" and praising them in prayer.

And as far as Luke 1:48, Mary saying "From now on all generations will call me blessed" is NOT the same as "From now on all generations will bless me and pray to me."

The New Test. (along with the O.T) is replete with people who have been called by, used by, and blessed by God.
Each and every one of them could say "from now on all generations will call me blessed" because they were mightily used of God.

Mary was blessed. So was Peter. And Joseph. And Paul. And Stephen (who was blessed with a martyr's death) and Timothy...

But it all comes back to this: There is no way you can say that Jesus is being focused on in the Rosary when you praise and pray to Mary 53 times, but only pray the Our Father (the actual way Jesus Himself taught us to pray) a mere six times.

Again, that is especially obvious when one of the final prayers on the Rosary is:

Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy;
our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To
thee do we cry, poor banished children of
Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this veil of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine
eyes of mercy towards us. And after this,
And after this, our exile, show us the blessed
fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, o loving,
o sweet virgin Mary. Pray for us oh holy mother
of God, that we may be made worthy of the
promises of Christ. Amen. "

There are so many things wrong with that prayer.

FIrst off, Mary is not "our life".......Jesus alone is
Mary is not "our hope".........we hope in Jesus alone
"To thee we cry"..........In your deepest time of need it should be Jesus you cry out to, not Mary

What it says in Luke does NOT justify or authorize spending time on your knees praising and praying to Mary.

Jesus died on the cross so that we can speak to Him directly. He loves us more than we can comprehend and wants to be involved intimately in every single facet of our lives.

Focusing on Mary is not the best way to achieve that intimacy with Jesus.

Click to expand...

You wrote : "And as far as Luke 1:48, Mary saying "From now on all generations will call me blessed" is NOT the same as "From now on all generations will bless me and pray to me."

We do not pray to Mary [ how many times must you hear this before it sinks in ?] We are asking Mary to pray for us sinners.Please show where the Catholic Church teaches that we must horour Mary above Jesus,
Mary always leads people to Jesus.
In praying the Rosary we are saying over and over, concentrating on 'blessed is the Fruit [ Jesus ] of your womb. The Bible tells us that a worthy person's prayers are appreciated by the Father, nobody is as worthy as the Mother of our Savior, Mary chosen by the Father, to be the mother of Jesus, is more qualified than anybody in the Bible for us to ask for prayers to her Son.
We as Christians should do the best we can to emulate Jesus and we do know, absolutely, that Jesus follows the Ten Commandments, including the one to Honor not only God His and our Father, but also His mother. Remember the Fourth Commandment is to Honor your Father and Mother.

" With your whole heart honor your father; your mother's birthpangs forget not. Remember , of these parents you were born; what can you give them for all they gave you ?" [ Sirach 3: 1-15 ]

" Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities , for there exists no authority except from God, and those who exist have been appointed by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists the ordinance of God.... Render to all men whatever is their due; tribute to whom tribute is due; taxes to whom taxes are due; fear to whom fear is due; honor to whom honor is due " [ Romans 13: 17 ]

neophyte said:

We do not pray to Mary [ how many times must you hear this before it sinks in ?] We are asking Mary to pray for us sinners.Please show where the Catholic Church teaches that we must horour Mary above Jesus,

Click to expand...

Actually neophyte in one sense we do pray to Mary - but not with the same meaning of "pray" that we pray to God.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (prayer), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our home, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. the prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

We can correctly say both "Catholics do pray to Mary" and "Catholics don’t pray to Mary"

Contradictory as it may seem, these two statements are both true.

The difference is resolved by understanding the different uses of the word “pray”.

Consider the entymology of the word:
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.(from the Online Entymology Dictionary)

So pray means, at its root, ask earnestly, entreat, beg, request.

If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray”.

Take these extracts from that great English writer, Jane Austen
“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)
"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in Mansfield Park)

Scripture itself uses the word pray in this manner:
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV)

Iit is in this sense that Catholics pray to Mary. They are asking her for her prayers for us.

Praying to God
Another word that is used in the NT is proseuchomai as when Jesus says: But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret (Mt 6:6).
It is this word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God.

Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God, which is not true.

Spirit & Truth Fellowship International (not Catholic) say about proseuchomai & parakaleo:
The Greek verb proseuchomai (#4336 proseu,comai) and its noun form proseuche (#4335 proseuch,), like euchomai and euche, denote prayer in the more general sense. This means the content of the prayer may include various specific requests (aitema), supplications (deēsis), intercessions (enteuxis), etc. However proseuchomai and proseuche are only used as prayer to God (the prefix pros means towards)—whereas euchomai and deēsis are not restricted in this way (Trench, Synonyms). It generally “seems to indicate not so much the contents of the prayer as its end and aim” (Thayer).

The Greek verb parakaleō (#3870 parakale,w) and its noun form paraklēsis (#3874 para,klhsij) have a very wide range of meaning. Further, they appear quite often in scripture (109 verb uses; 29 noun uses). The words’ basic meaning is to call to one’s side. “To call some one hither, that he may do something…to use persuasion with him” (Bullinger). The calling along can be meant to appeal or plead; encourage or urge; to comfort; summon or invite; only once is it applied to God and that by the Lord Jesus (Matt 26:53).

Their text on this lists many words Greek words that are translated as “pray” – euchomai, proseuchomai, erotao, aiteo, deomai, parakaleo, entynchano with explanations and examples in the NT.

Thank you Mungo, for explaning that to me. Looks like I'll always be learning , Christianity is an on-going conversion. A neophyte [ newcomer ] I'll always be.

Like all fully redeemed persons, Mary is an example of our life in Christ.

You wrote : "And as far as Luke 1:48, Mary saying "From now on all generations will call me blessed" is NOT the same as "From now on all generations will bless me and pray to me."

We do not pray to Mary [ how many times must you hear this before it sinks in ?]

-- "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art though among women..." Sure SOUNDS like a prayer.



We are asking Mary to pray for us sinners.

-- And why would you choose to do that instead of just praying directly to Jesus.....the one who loves you more than anyone else, sacrificed his body so your sins could be forgiven, longs to hear from you, and is currently sitting at the right hand of the Father, READY to intercede for you?

Your "joint heir with Jesus" status means that someone else does not have to "grease the wheels" in order for Jesus to be receptive your your voice, you prayers, your needs, your praise, etc. etc. etc.

TRANSLATION: HE IS JUST AS ANXIOUS TO HEAR AND ADDRESS YOUR PRAYERS AS HE WOULD BE IF MARY WAS SHARING THEM WITH HIM.

He is eagerly WAITING to hear from us. He does not say, "Clear it through my secretary, first."



Please show where the Catholic Church teaches that we must horour Mary above Jesus,

-- Nice try, but no one said that.
I can play that game, too: Please show where Jesus said that we should ever go to his mother and not to Him directly when we wish to praise him or are in need of Him?

The question was, how can you say you are focusing on Jesus specifically using the Rosary when you say the Hail Mary 53 times and the Our Father (the way that Jesus Himself actually said we should pray) a mere six times.



Mary always leads people to Jesus.

-- No, JESUS leads people to Jesus.
-- Jesus says "I stand at the door and I knock," not "My Mom is going to your door with an introductory letter."
-- Jesus says "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest, " not "Tell my Mom about your labor and heavy burdens and I will get with you after hearing from her."



In praying the Rosary we are saying over and over, concentrating on 'blessed is the Fruit [ Jesus ] of your womb.

-- Exactly, when you should be saying, "Blessed be your holy name Lord Jesus."

When you are praying the Rosary you shouldn't be telling Mary over and over again how cool her son is. You should be telling her son Jesus DIRECTLY how cool he is.

Youl shouldn't repteatedly be telling Mary how blessed is the fruit of her womb. You should be blessing the ACTUAL FRUIT of that womb - Jesus.

He has said many times to come unto Him. He never mentions asking his Mom to grease the wheel for you first.



The Bible tells us that a worthy person's prayers are appreciated by the Father, nobody is as worthy as the Mother of our Savior, Mary chosen by the Father, to be the mother of Jesus, is more qualified than anybody in the Bible for us to ask for prayers to her Son.

-- Jesus also tells us that once we give our lives to him we ARE worthy people whose prayers are appreciated by the Father.



We as Christians should do the best we can to emulate Jesus and we do know, absolutely, that Jesus follows the Ten Commandments, including the one to Honor not only God His and our Father, but also His mother. Remember the Fourth Commandment is to Honor your Father and Mother.

-- But the Fourth Commandment does call on us to specifically honor SOMEONE ELSE'S father and mother. "Honor THY father and mother." And Mary isn't my mother.



" With your whole heart honor your father; your mother's birthpangs forget not. Remember , of these parents you were born; what can you give them for all they gave you ?" [ Sirach 3: 1-15 ]

-- How can this be construed to justify 53 Hail Marys when you claim that the focus the Rosary is on Jesus?


" Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities , for there exists no authority except from God, and those who exist have been appointed by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists the ordinance of God.... Render to all men whatever is their due; tribute to whom tribute is due; taxes to whom taxes are due; fear to whom fear is due; honor to whom honor is due " [ Romans 13: 17 ]

-- Again, a scripture that does not provide support to what you are trying to say.
"There exists no authority except from God" does not indicate in any way that Mary has been given any authority whatsoever in Heaven.

And as human beings, Jesus gives us that authority here on earth, through His name to heal the sick, cast out demons, etc. - Again, it does not pertain to Mary in Heaven.
.
And when Paul said "Render to all men whatever is their due; tribute to whom tribute is due; taxes to whom taxes are due; fear to whom fear is due; honor to whom honor is due" he...was.....talking....about....people....here....on....earth. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Mary in Heaven.


And I am still waiting for someone to justify saying, "Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy;
our life, our sweetness, and our hope. "

-- Mary is NOT our life. Jesus is.
Mary is NOT our hope. Jesus is.

There is simply no way to twist that prayer into having the focus on Jesus and not Mary.

everything about Mary is because of Jesus. We honor great artists by admiring their work.

Foreigner said:

And I am still waiting for someone to justify saying, "Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy;
our life, our sweetness, and our hope. "

-- Mary is NOT our life. Jesus is.
Mary is NOT our hope. Jesus is.

There is simply no way to twist that prayer into having the focus on Jesus and not Mary.

Click to expand...

See post #225

Foreigner said:

-- Again, a scripture that does not provide support to what you are trying to say.
"There exists no authority except from God" does not indicate in any way that Mary has been given any authority whatsoever in Heaven.

And as human beings, Jesus gives us that authority here on earth, through His name to heal the sick, cast out demons, etc. - Again, it does not pertain to Mary in Heaven.
.
And when Paul said "Render to all men whatever is their due; tribute to whom tribute is due; taxes to whom taxes are due; fear to whom fear is due; honor to whom honor is due" he...was.....talking....about....people....here....on....earth. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Mary in Heaven.

Click to expand...

God promised David his throne (i.e. his kingdom) would last for ever (2Sam 7:11-16). At the Annunciation the Angel says to Mary that her son (Jesus) “will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33). Jesus kingdom is the Davidic kingdom and has the characteristics of the Davidic kingdom. One of these characteristics is the role of the Queen Mother (the Gebirah).

The Queen Mother has authority (under the king - Jesus) because of her position.

Foreigner said:

And Mary isn't my mother.

Click to expand...

Are you not a Christian then?

And Mary isn't my mother.



Are you not a Christian then?

Click to expand...

How about sticking to scripture ?


Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Hebrews 12:22 - 24
But ye are come to mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [ones],
which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than Abel.

dragonfly said:

How about sticking to scripture ?


Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Hebrews 12:22 - 24
But ye are come to mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [ones],
which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than Abel.

Click to expand...

Mary is our spiritual mother given to us by Jesus himself at the cross.
Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. (Jn 19:25-27)
We consider that all Christians are beloved disciples of Christ. So when Jesus gave his mother to the beloved disciple to be his mother he gave her to all Christians as their mother.

Then there is the woman in Rev 12 who is Mary:
Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Rev 12:16-17)
Mary is the mother of all who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

See post #225 - Mungo

-- I already read it. Brag up Mary, talk to Mary, mention Jesus to Mary, cry out to Mary, ask for intercession from Mary
So using the Catholic standard, that prayer is OBVIOUSLY all about Jesus.



"Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy [Jesus]; our life [Jesus], out sweetness[Jesus], and our hope [Jesus].
Mary is the mother of Jesus who is Mercy and Jesus is our life, our sweetness, and our hope. - Mungo

-- lol No. The Catholic church does NOT interpret that prayer that way. Nice try, though.



God promised David his throne (i.e. his kingdom) would last for ever (2Sam 7:11-16). At the Annunciation the Angel says to Mary that her son (Jesus) “will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33). Jesus kingdom is the Davidic kingdom and has the characteristics of the Davidic kingdom. One of these characteristics is the role of the Queen Mother (the Gebirah).
The Queen Mother has authority (under the king - Jesus) because of her position. - Mungo


-- lol No.
And besides, if you actually understood your salvation you would understand that you have a direct line to Jesus who is at the right hand of His Father, waiting patiently to hear from you. He wants to hear from you directly and interact with you intimately. Scripture points out that Jesus calls you to speak to him directly.
No need for Mary to 'grease the wheels' or 'run interference' for you.



Are you not a Christian then? - Mungo

-- I am. You should consider it, too.



Mary is our spiritual mother given to us by Jesus himself at the cross.
Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. (Jn 19:25-27) We consider that all Christians are beloved disciples of Christ. So when Jesus gave his mother to the beloved disciple to be his mother he gave her to all Christians as their mother.
- Mungo

-- I love it. It is usually the Catholics telling others they read too much into the scriptures.
Jesus was ensuring that His earthly mother was cared for. Nothing more.
But feel free to keep throwing that stuff against the wall. Eventually something will stick.



We consider that all Christians are beloved disciples of Christ. So when Jesus gave his mother to the beloved disciple to be his mother he gave her to all Christians as their mother. - Mungo

-- We are beloved disciples of Christ. We are his children who he loves with His whole heart and desires to interact with intimately.

And if I can shovel a little like Mungo does, we are the "Bride of Christ." Using Mungo's take on Catholicism, that makes Mary our mother-in-law.
In relationships such as this, most Mothers-in-law are nothing but fifth wheels, on the outside looking in.

Foreigner said:

See post #225 - Mungo

-- I already read it. Brag up Mary, talk to Mary, mention Jesus to Mary, cry out to Mary, ask for intercession from Mary
So using the Catholic standard, that prayer is OBVIOUSLY all about Jesus.





"Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy [Jesus]; our life [Jesus], out sweetness[Jesus], and our hope [Jesus].
Mary is the mother of Jesus who is Mercy and Jesus is our life, our sweetness, and our hope. - Mungo

-- lol No. The Catholic church does NOT interpret that prayer that way. Nice try, though.

Click to expand...

So you not being a Catholic knows how the Catholic Church prays it's prayers. What arrogance.

Foreigner said:

God promised David his throne (i.e. his kingdom) would last for ever (2Sam 7:11-16). At the Annunciation the Angel says to Mary that her son (Jesus) “will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33). Jesus kingdom is the Davidic kingdom and has the characteristics of the Davidic kingdom. One of these characteristics is the role of the Queen Mother (the Gebirah).
The Queen Mother has authority (under the king - Jesus) because of her position. - Mungo


-- lol No.

Click to expand...

Is that your answer?

lol! you do not understand scriptures. Your ignorance is appalling.

Foreigner said:

And besides, if you actually understood your salvation you would understand that you have a direct line to Jesus who is at the right hand of His Father, waiting patiently to hear from you. He wants to hear from you directly and interact with you intimately. Scripture points out that Jesus calls you to speak to him directly.
No need for Mary to 'grease the wheels' or 'run interference' for you.

Click to expand...

According to your argument Paul did not understand that people had a direct line to God because he asks others to pray for him.
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20)
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.” (Heb 13:18)

Silly Paul, he could have just prayed direct to Jesus himself.

Foreigner said:

Are you not a Christian then? - Mungo

-- I am. You should consider it, too.



Mary is our spiritual mother given to us by Jesus himself at the cross.
Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. (Jn 19:25-27) We consider that all Christians are beloved disciples of Christ. So when Jesus gave his mother to the beloved disciple to be his mother he gave her to all Christians as their mother.
- Mungo

-- I love it. It is usually the Catholics telling others they read too much into the scriptures.
Jesus was ensuring that His earthly mother was cared for. Nothing more.

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Hardly. Jesus had plenty of time to make arrangements for his mother before he was arrested and crucified. Why would he ait until he was dying on the cross.
"Oh bother! I forgot about mum!". John wasn't writing about Jesus making domestic arrangements with his dying breath..

Foreigner said:

We consider that all Christians are beloved disciples of Christ. So when Jesus gave his mother to the beloved disciple to be his mother he gave her to all Christians as their mother. - Mungo

-- We are beloved disciples of Christ. We are his children who he loves with His whole heart and desires to interact with intimately.

And if I can shovel a little like Mungo does, we are the "Bride of Christ." Using Mungo's take on Catholicism, that makes Mary our mother-in-law.
In relationships such as this, most Mothers-in-law are nothing but fifth wheels, on the outside looking in.

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Yes, bring in irrelevacies and rack up the mocking tone to hide your ignorance and inability to provide a reasoned response.

Also you ignored my point about Revelation.

I note, that in common with the majority of your replies, you make no serious attempt to answer the points raised.

Mockery and insults just show the emptyness of your claims.

Mungo said:

So you not being a Catholic knows how the Catholic Church prays it's prayers. What arrogance.

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- Was a Catholic for three-plus decades. Baptized, Confirmed, Altar Boy, Reader, choir member, Bible study leader, Music Ministry for "Search" retreat weekends, member of the church board. Still on the board of two Catholic charities. I am working with one of them to help join the lawsuit against ObamaCare in being forced to provide birth control, plan B, abortion services, etc.

You were saying.....

Mungo said:

Is that your answer?
lol! you do not understand scriptures. Your ignorance is appalling.

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-- Actually yes, it is. And it is correct. And as I said, the Catholic church itself does not interpret that scripture the way you interpret it.
As far as "apalling"....weren't you the one bemoaning people giving answers like this?
But I do understand...since you can't site the Catholic church's support of your claim on this scripture, that is really all you have left in yoru arsenal.

Mungo said:

Silly Paul, he could have just prayed direct to Jesus himself.

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-- Yes, he could have. But it becomes obviously that you do not understand the difference between asking those on earth to intercede for you, why that is different from someone in Heaven who God said, "enter into your rest" which implies there is no further calling for them, and the benefits and blessings for those HERE ON EARTH who lift you up in prayer.

Mungo said:

Hardly. Jesus had plenty of time to make arrangements for his mother before he was arrested and crucified. Why would he ait until he was dying on the cross.
"Oh bother! I forgot about mum!". John wasn't writing about Jesus making domestic arrangements with his dying breath..

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-- As I said, some Catholics lambaste people for "reading too much" into Scriptures, but that sure doesn't keep them from doing it.

Mungo said:

Yes, bring in irrelevacies and rack up the mocking tone to hide your ignorance and inability to provide a reasoned response.

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-- Mungo, your specific definition of a 'reasoned response' is only the response that agrees with you 100%.

Mungo said:

Also you ignored my point about Revelation.

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-- You claim Rev. 12: 16-17 is about Mary.
That is ridiculous and should be igorned.
And no, I absolutely do not expect you to provide any support for your claim. There is none.

Mungo said:

Mockery and insults just show the emptyness of your claims.

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- Read back through your last few posts and then try to pretend that doesn't apply to you.

So who is John referring to in Rev. 16-17, if it is not Mary?

Foreigner said:

- Was a Catholic for three-plus decades. Baptized, Confirmed, Altar Boy, Reader, choir member, Bible study leader, Music Ministry for "Search" retreat weekends, member of the church board. Still on the board of two Catholic charities. I am working with one of them to help join the lawsuit against ObamaCare in being forced to provide birth control, plan B, abortion services, etc.

You were saying.....

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Oh sure!. Funny how many ant-catholic Protestants there are who claim to have been altar boys, been to Catholic schools etc. but know nothing of Catholicism.

Foreigner said:

-- Actually yes, it is. And it is correct. And as I said, the Catholic church itself does not interpret that scripture the way you interpret it.
As far as "apalling"....weren't you the one bemoaning people giving answers like this?
But I do understand...since you can't site the Catholic church's support of your claim on this scripture, that is really all you have left in yoru arsenal.

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There is more but I don’t see you responding to the scriptures I post so why post more?

Foreigner said:

-- Yes, he could have. But it becomes obviously that you do not understand the difference between asking those on earth to intercede for you, why that is different from someone in Heaven who God said, "enter into your rest" which implies there is no further calling for them, and the benefits and blessings for those HERE ON EARTH who lift you up in prayer.

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Of course there is a difference. Those in heaven do not sleep, do not sin. They are fully, 100% righteous.

“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16).

There is another piece of scripture for you to ignore.

Foreigner said:

-- As I said, some Catholics lambaste people for "reading too much" into Scriptures, but that sure doesn't keep them from doing it.

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Well since you don’t quote any scriptures I can’t accuse you of reading too much into them.

Foreigner said:

-- Mungo, your specific definition of a 'reasoned response' is only the response that agrees with you 100%.

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My definition of a reasoned response is one that uses reason not mockery.

Look back through your posts.

Do you see any quotations from scripture? NO

Do you see any reasoned arguments? NO

Let me give you an example of your lack of a reasoned response:

I said:
God promised David his throne (i.e. his kingdom) would last for ever (2Sam 7:11-16). At the Annunciation the Angel says to Mary that her son (Jesus) “will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33). Jesus kingdom is the Davidic kingdom and has the characteristics of the Davidic kingdom. One of these characteristics is the role of the Queen Mother (the Gebirah).
The Queen Mother has authority (under the king - Jesus) because of her position. - Mungo

Your answer was :
"-- lol No."

What kind of reasoned response was that?

Foreigner said:

-- You claim Rev. 12: 16-17 is about Mary.
That is ridiculous and should be igorned.
And no, I absolutely do not expect you to provide any support for your claim. There is none.

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Of course there is.

Foreigner said:

- Read back through your last few posts and then try to pretend that doesn't apply to you.

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Are you seriously accusing me of sinking to your level?

Hi aspen,

I don't plan to say too much in this conversation but I need to ask you this:

So who is John referring to in Rev. 16-17, if it is not Mary?

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Are you serious?

dragonfly said:

Hi aspen,

I don't plan to say too much in this conversation but I need to ask you this:




Are you serious?

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Um...yeah, I actually am. And I am losing interest in this conversation, as well. If you want to talk in pm I welcome it.