Just heard about the rosary....

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Arnie Manitoba

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I am not Catholic , nor am I anti-Catholic ... I have come to know many Christians from that group.

I do not pray to Mary , I do not use rosary beads , but I try to rationalize why some do.

My best guess is that very few people could read in the days of the early (Roman) church and memorizing and using a series of beads helped them learn to pray. Plus the women (mothers) were often the christian anchor in the home and having Mary held in high esteem would be encouraging to them.

I would not disagree with those reasons. But I still have concerns in modern day as follows .....

If The Virgin Mary (literally and physically) appeared in Jerusalem or Rome tomorrow ..... millions of Her followers would flock to her and maybe even worship Her.

But what if she is a woman riding a Beast ..... not saying she is .... but think about it ..... it would be a clever deception in the end times. ..... Heck if there is a slightly perceived image of her reflected in a window in an office tower in New York .... many flock there and worship (her) .... and that concerns me.

The song in Luke calls Mary The Mother of our Lord .... and she is .... and that is wonderful .... and I have a great fondness for Mary in my own detached way.

But when She is called The Mother of God .... it is technically correct ..... but it is a fine line we cross because it gives the perception that Mary was first .... then gave birth to God .... and that concerns me .... hope that makes sense.

I personally have no issues with any of this .... my concern is for folks who may adore Mary too much and Jesus not enough .... and be subject to something misleading.

I hope and pray that The Father of our Lord Jesus , and our Lord Jesus Himself , and the Mother of our Lord Jesus , protect us all from deception of any kind.

And throw in The discernment of The Holy Spirit for good measure.

I would welcome any comments from anyone (Catholic) who could ease my concerns about things Mary.

thanks.
 

neophyte

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Apr 25, 2012
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I am not Catholic , nor am I anti-Catholic ... I have come to know many Christians from that group.

I do not pray to Mary , I do not use rosary beads , but I try to rationalize why some do.

My best guess is that very few people could read in the days of the early (Roman) church and memorizing and using a series of beads helped them learn to pray. Plus the women (mothers) were often the christian anchor in the home and having Mary held in high esteem would be encouraging to them.

I would not disagree with those reasons. But I still have concerns in modern day as follows .....

If The Virgin Mary (literally and physically) appeared in Jerusalem or Rome tomorrow ..... millions of Her followers would flock to her and maybe even worship Her.

But what if she is a woman riding a Beast ..... not saying she is .... but think about it ..... it would be a clever deception in the end times. ..... Heck if there is a slightly perceived image of her reflected in a window in an office tower in New York .... many flock there and worship (her) .... and that concerns me.

The song in Luke calls Mary The Mother of our Lord .... and she is .... and that is wonderful .... and I have a great fondness for Mary in my own detached way.

But when She is called The Mother of God .... it is technically correct ..... but it is a fine line we cross because it gives the perception that Mary was first .... then gave birth to God .... and that concerns me .... hope that makes sense.

I personally have no issues with any of this .... my concern is for folks who may adore Mary too much and Jesus not enough .... and be subject to something misleading.

I hope and pray that The Father of our Lord Jesus , and our Lord Jesus Himself , and the Mother of our Lord Jesus , protect us all from deception of any kind.

And throw in The discernment of The Holy Spirit for good measure.

I would welcome any comments from anyone (Catholic) who could ease my concerns about things Mary.

thanks.

Hi Arnie,
A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).
Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.
The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.
Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.
The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, along with all Christians including the first early Reformers.
 

aspen

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-- Aspen, you are really in no position whatsoever to comment on this topic.
The Pope has not sanctioned the Rosary, (or the communion turning into the actual body of Christ, or the right to ask the dead in heaven to pray for you) "ex patria."
You yourself said that if the Pope didn't say it "ex patria" than it is "just his opinion."

And if history tells us anything, labeling something as "tradition" does not automatically make it right.

And the "if it doesn't contraditict scripture, there is nothing wrong with it" doesn't fly either.
It wouldn't contradict scripture if you chose to sell your children into slavery....

I agree with the Pope's teaching on the Rosary. Where does the Pope teach that 'dead' people are in heaven?

Human slavery is a contradiction of Jesus's command to love our neighbor.

Catholic doctrine is not Protestant - get over it.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Thanks Neophyte ... your post makes a lot of sense and helps me understand better.

I repeat , I hold Mary in very high regard , I dont mind if others (Catholics) hold her even higher , but I get cautious when she is the center of everything and the Father and Son are off on the side somewhere. At least it appears that way sometimes. Could be just me. I admit my views change the more I study things of Mary.

Just a couple more comments on a few select verses I have been contemplating.....

God is called blessed in Mark 14:61-62 ...... Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” ..........[sup] 62 [/sup] “I am,” said Jesus ......

Mary is called blessed (by the Holy Spirit thru Elizabeth) in Luke 1:41-42..... . " and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. [sup]42 [/sup]In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!

Then mary herself (in Mary's song) calls herself blessed in luke 1:48-49 ...... "From now on all generations will call me blessed,
[sup]49 [/sup] for the Mighty One has done great things for me— holy is his name."


Those couple of examples certainly indicate Mary is deserving of very high esteem .

Then along comes Luke 11:27-28 ..... [sup]27 [/sup] .... a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

[sup]28 [/sup]Jesus replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Gives me whiplash sometimes :)
 

aspen

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Good post, Arnie.

I think Jesus was purposeful in His message to the Jewish people regarding their reliance on their birthright as God's chosen people - at one point He tells the crowd that unless they hate their father and their mother, they cannot follow Him. I think He is telling them that they must leave their traditions and start loving God and neighbor through obedience and service. And as you pointed out, He tells the crowd He is speaking to that obedience to God is more important than their tendency to look towards His pedigree, which is often times misinterpreted as His contempt for His mother.

The message is that obedience to God is what matters, not heritage.
 

Foreigner

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I agree with the Pope's teaching on the Rosary.

-- How can you? He didn't give approval of it via "ex cathedra." That is the standard you gave for accepting Papal saction/approval before......right?

This Pope rejects Gay Marraige, stating that it will bring about the destruction of society.
Yet you poo-pood that stating that since he didn't say it "ex cathedra" it it "just his opinion." (Your quote)

Yet you accept the Papal teaching on the Rosary.....without it being sanctioned "ex cathedra."

Yup, there's a word for that.



Where does the Pope teach that 'dead' people are in heaven?

-- Who cares? By your own words, his opinion only matters if YOU agree with him.



Human slavery is a contradiction of Jesus's command to love our neighbor.

-- Yet Jesus did not call for the abolishment of slavery so - according to your standard - Jesus is contradicting His own law.
As a matter of fact:
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." - Jesus



Catholic doctrine is not Protestant - get over it.

-- Much of Catholic doctrine is not correct - get over it.
 

aspen

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-- How can you? He didn't give approval of it via "ex cathedra." That is the standard you gave for accepting Papal saction/approval before......right?

This Pope rejects Gay Marraige, stating that it will bring about the destruction of society.
Yet you poo-pood that stating that since he didn't say it "ex cathedra" it it "just his opinion." (Your quote)

Yet you accept the Papal teaching on the Rosary.....without it being sanctioned "ex cathedra."

Yup, there's a word for that.





-- Who cares? By your own words, his opinion only matters if YOU agree with him.





-- Yet Jesus did not call for the abolishment of slavery so - according to your standard - Jesus is contradicting His own law.
As a matter of fact:
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." - Jesus





-- Much of Catholic doctrine is not correct - get over it.


Here we go again - Foreigner's tireless quest to prove that everyone who disagrees with him is a hypocrite, zzz.

I said, I agree with the Pope on his teaching of the rosary. I did not say that 'I accept it'. Why would I have to accept (receive it like bad tasting medicine) something I already agree with?

I respect the Pope's opinion, why would I dismiss it just because it is not ex cathedra?

I do have different opinions than the Pope on certain issues - when it is just his opinion, I am only disagreeing with him. When it is ex cathedra, I am in disagreement with the entire teachings of the Catholic Church.

I am not afraid to be wrong about my opinions, Foreigner. I am not going to pretend that I believe a teaching when I do not - I believe that is hypocritical.

I have no problem being corrected by God if I am wrong about my believes/opinions.

I have never said that the Pope's opinion 'doesn't matter'

Why are you attributing a phrase about slavery from Paul to Jesus? Paul was not condoning slavery, he was teaching the power and importance of obedience.
 

Foreigner

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I said, I agree with the Pope on his teaching of the rosary. I did not say that 'I accept it'. Why would I have to accept (receive it like bad tasting medicine) something I already agree with?

-- As I said, you will go along with the Pope if and when you agree with him.
Otherwise, it is "just his opinion."



I respect the Pope's opinion, why would I dismiss it just because it is not ex cathedra?

-- LOL Please take a stab at being honest, okay? At least try...

I showed you the article where the Pope said that Gay Marraige is wrong and will bring about the destruction of humantiy.
You said that since it wasn't said "ex cathedra" that it was - your words - "just his opinion."

The Pope said he opposed Gay Marraige and that it was "a threat to the future of humanity," while speaking in front of cameras at an official Vatican function involving diplomats to the Vatican from around the world.

The cow pie you're trying to serve up is that he was just speaking for himself alone and we shouldn't in any way assume that the leader of the Catholic church was actually "talking policy."
 

aspen

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you know what Foreigner,

I am finally tired of being accused of being a liar by you.

If you want to have a conversation among equals, get back to me.

Until then, I am no longer interested.
 

Foreigner

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you know what Foreigner,

I am finally tired of being accused of being a liar by you.

If you want to have a conversation among equals, get back to me.

Until then, I am no longer interested.

-- What a coincidence, I am just as tired of your unwillingness to be honest.

Anyone can look back and see that what I said and quoted you as saying is 100% accurate and in context.

You simply don't want to be held accountable for your own words.

I could see where that is tough on you. Integrity is a struggle for some.
 

Foreigner

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I often agree with the Pope too. He usually makes more sense than most prejudiced Protestants!

-- This is the same pope that says the Rosary is designed to focus on God, but for every "Our Father" prayed on the Rosary (You know, the exact way Jesus Himself told us we are to pray) there are 10 'Hail Marys."

Yeah, makes more sense....
 

revturmoil

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-- This is the same pope that says the Rosary is designed to focus on God, but for every "Our Father" prayed on the Rosary (You know, the exact way Jesus Himself told us we are to pray) there are 10 'Hail Marys."

Yeah, makes more sense....

I would rather listen to a Catholic say the rosary than listen to John MacArthur accuse Billy Graham of denying Christ or demonize Catholicism.
 
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aspen

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hmm...

If you are only saying hail Mary's while praying the Rosary, without focusing on the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Christ - you are not really praying the Rosary. The fact is, the Rosary is Christ centered.
 

Foreigner

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hmm...

If you are only saying hail Mary's while praying the Rosary, without focusing on the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Christ - you are not really praying the Rosary. The fact is, the Rosary is Christ centered.


-- Yeah, because saying the Hail Mary 53 times (while saying the Our Father only Six times) OBVIOUSLY shows it to be "Christ centered." :lol:

I would rather listen to a Catholic say the rosary than listen to John MacArthur accuse Billy Graham of denying Christ or demonize Catholicism.

-- Agreed. After all, saying the rosary is simply a non-confrontational, innocuous way to pass time until you find something important to do.
 

aspen

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Foreigner said:

-- Yeah, because saying the Hail Mary 53 times (while saying the Our Father only Six times) OBVIOUSLY shows it to be "Christ centered." :lol:

-- Yeah - ridiculuos huh? :lol: :lol: :lol:

since when does acknowledging the entire teaching of the rosary clarify anything, right?!?!? Much funnier to just take the OBVIOUS parts and pretend like they are the entire teaching!! So much easier to ridicule!

Hey let's try it with Sola Scriptura! Protestants believe in Sola Scriptura?!? :lol:

Yeah because reading the Bible 'solo' and gaining a 'solo interpretation' is really going to be magically shared by other Christians - that is why there is only one Protestant denomination, right?

-- Agreed. After all, saying the rosary is simply a non-confrontational, innocuous way to pass time until you find something important to do.

No, actually, that is not what Kaotic said at all, perhaps you are apply private interpretation to his posts - sort of like you do with scripture?
 

Foreigner

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So, just to be sure I have it right:

Catholics say the Hail Mary 53 times in a standard 5-decade Rosary (compared to the Lord's prayer which is said only six times)....because the Rosary is "centered on Christ."

And the best way to focus on "the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Christ" while saying the Rosary.....is to pray the Hail Mary over and over and over....
 

aspen

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So, just to be sure I have it right:

Catholics say the Hail Mary 53 times in a standard 5-decade Rosary (compared to the Lord's prayer which is said only six times)....because the Rosary is "centered on Christ."

And the best way to focus on "the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Christ" while saying the Rosary.....is to pray the Hail Mary over and over and over....


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail,full of grace, the Lord is with you."

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."

Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Luke 1:42b "and blessed is the fruit of your womb."

Holy Mary, Mother of God

Luke 1:43 "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Luke 2:35 "...and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

John 2:5 "His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."


Asking for the prayers from the first Christian, Mother of God, obedient servant of God WHILE reciting scripture? I am not sure why you have to clarify - this is a very pleasing and meaningful way to focus on the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Jesus. Mary, like all faithful and obedient Christians, reflects her Son.
 

Foreigner

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No, no, no, I get it. It makes perfect sense.

The very best way "to focus on the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Jesus" in a "very pleasing and meaningful way" ....is to repeatedly pray to and praise Mary.

Focus your thoughts and words on her, not Him.
 

aspen

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No, no, no, I get it. It makes perfect sense.

The very best way "to focus on the Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection of Jesus" in a "very pleasing and meaningful way" ....is to repeatedly pray to and praise Mary.

Focus your thoughts and words on her, not Him.

That's right, Foreigner - stick to your original statement, no matter what evidence is presented. I am sure the more you repeat it, the more it will magically come true - right? Talk about 'vain repetition' - LOL

Taken right from the playbook of FOX. If you cannot twist your opponents words to make him look like a hypocrite; simply ignore all information he presents and repeat your original position! At least you are predictable.

Thanks for reminding me why answering your posts with scripture is completely useless,

Once again, you are not here to have a discussion between equals - only to assert your opinion at all costs.