Apostasy and the lie of the tithe

Michael V Pardo said:

I think that the original point that I was trying to make was that the requirement of tithing in the new covenant churches is a misappropriation of scripture. The Law is good and it's application is good if it is used lawfully, but there is an unlawful use of law. In the body of Christ we are to follow the leading of the Spirit of God to life. The law condemns, the Spirit gives life. Even in the Church we have a law of sorts, a royal law decreed by the King. His commandment to His disciples is to love one another even as He loves them (He gave His life for us and so we should be willing to sacrifice for each other.) The problem that we tend to have is one of linguistics. We see the english word love and tend to think of a concept involving only emotional content rather than volitional content. The love of God in Christ is an act of His character and of His will: "Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”" Exodus 33:19
We have a commandment to love one another, not just with smiles and pleasant greetings,(not with warm fuzzies,) but with deeds, good works to meet the real needs of our brethren and not just them: And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. Galatians 6:9-11
The problem is that when the leadership of a church starts to set down rules of acceptible behavior as requirements for membership, leadership, fellowship, etc., they are in effect doing what the pharisees did 2000 years ago, attempting to circumvent the commandment (of Jesus the Christ) and establishing a standard of righteousness of their own, comparing men with men, and forsaking the standard of the King, even our Lord Jesus (or Yahshua if you prefer.) The Apostle Paul gave us clear standards for church discipline and church leadership (based to some degree on his own background as a Pharisee), but we also have ample teaching about judging our brothers based upon our own standards and not upon the word of God. The rule that I see predominantly in the teachings of our Lord is one of grace and forgiveness and equity for all men. The tithe had it's good and lawful purpose under the law, but corrupt men (according to Josephus) ammassed wealth through the tithe and then used their wealth unlawfully, making loans to widows and then seizing their property in forfeiture, and other such evil things. I don't see contemporary ministries doing this sort of thing, but I have heard the suggestion made that someone should sell their home and move into a cheap apartment in order to have 10% to give to their church, an easy thing to suggest when the church pays for your own home, provides sufficient income for being a host to visitors, meeting your own needs and that of your family, and sufficient funds to tithe back 10% to the church (not an uncommon compensation package for a Pastor). Does this seem a little corrupt to you? It does to me. I won't blame a Pastor for accepting such a package, but when the same man preaches the giving of a tithe as a requiement, it would appear somewhat self serving. Please don't misunderstand my purpose here. I haven't come to attack the institutionalized church, but to call it to repentance. Judgment begins in the house of God.

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Correct brother. Apostle Paul did not apply the law of tithes under The New Covenant Church. Instead he admonished us to give alms, according to what each believer feels led to give. It is now strictly an act between God and the giver. Man can no longer say they want more money from someone to try and fulfill some 'tenth' proportion of what they have.

My question to Retrobyter remains unanswered. I asked for a scripture where wage earners were required to hand over a tithe of their wages to the Levites, and the silence remains most telling.....

SW

Shalom, Seasoned Warrior.

Seasoned Warrior said:

My question to Retrobyter remains unanswered. I asked for a scripture where wage earners were required to hand over a tithe of their wages to the Levites, and the silence remains most telling.....

SW

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<Sigh.> Why do you need one? How about this:

Matthew 21:12-13
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
KJV

Mark 11:15-18
15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
KJV

So, what were these moneychangers doing? They were converting money and goods into animals that could be used for sacrifice! They considered themselves providing a service to those who came to bring their offerings to the LORD! The only part that Yeshua` condemned was that they were extorting the people as thieves would!

I just don't understand why you are making such a big deal out of all this! I'm not advocating that one MUST pay his "tithes and offerings"; it is to be done out of LOVE for God! It is to be done out of one's own free will! All that we "own" is HIS! The offerings that they brought to the Temple were to provide meat for the priests and Levites, according to the Torah, who had no birthright of land among the tribes of Isra'el. So, what's the big deal? Why is it so wrong to bring some gift to the LORD and let the "priests and Levites" that we have today, our leaders, teachers, and preachers, to partake of those offerings? "The worker is worthy of his hire!" "Muzzle not the ox that treads out the corn!"

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
KJV

Lighten up!

I'm so sick of money i don't know what to do
sick of not having it while living in a world that requires it for everything
Sick of it being the only thing about you that people are consistently interested in,both christians and non christians alike.

I swear if have any warning before i die i will get as much of it as i can and burn it.

Well, maybe one of my videos will help you get over your sickness of money, Strat.

I remastered each instrument of the music myself. It's a blessing to use it to glorify the Lord.


SW

Shabbat shalom, Strat, a Sabbath of peace to you.

Strat said:

I'm so sick of money i don't know what to do
sick of not having it while living in a world that requires it for everything
Sick of it being the only thing about you that people are consistently interested in,both christians and non christians alike.

I swear if have any warning before i die i will get as much of it as i can and burn it.

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Relax. Money is not the only way to do business. There's bartering and cooperative partnerships that people will learn to do as money loses its value. Consider the Amish and how they work together as a community to accomplish things in such a way that they don't need the trappings of modern conveniences. Bartering was a valuable tool during the aftermath of the Great Depression, and even if it comes to that again, we have the promises of God to bank on:

Prov 10:2-5
2 Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death.
3 The LORD will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: but he casteth away the substance of the wicked.
4 He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.
5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.
KJV

And, money doesn't make a man rich.

The American dollar has been losing its value ever since we were taken off the gold standard back during the days of FDR, but it is just a tool that people have agreed upon for trade. If it's no good, people will trade something else - gold, silver, platinum, goods, services, even the basic food stuffs, such as bread, themselves. Life goes on, and we just need to keep trusting God, not money or the government or anything else that may vie for our attention that rightfully belongs to Him.

It's not money that will satisfy people.

Hi Michael

Absolutely correct in all that you say. One thing I have also noticed at most churches is that they are family businesses.

Retrobyter said:

I just don't understand why you are making such a big deal out of all this!

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Because the practice reverses God's priorities in giving.

I'm not advocating that one MUST pay his "tithes and offerings"; it is to be done out of LOVE for God!

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How is handing over the primary portion of one's giving to institutionalized religion ones primary, largest portion giving rather than meet the needs of fellow blievers and others in need.

It is to be done out of one's own free will!

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Indeed?

All that we "own" is HIS!

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Doesn't it become an oxymoron, then, to apply the concept of ownership to us when It's all His?

The offerings that they brought to the Temple were to provide meat for the priests and Levites, according to the Torah, who had no birthright of land among the tribes of Isra'el. So, what's the big deal?

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None of which had anything to do with the wages of wage earners.

That's the main point I was trying to make. The tithe NEVER had anything to do with the wages of wage earners, only to those who owned producing lands, herds and/or flocks.

The situation with the moneychangers had NOTHING to do with the tithe.

Why is it so wrong to bring some gift to the LORD and let the "priests and Levites" that we have today, our leaders, teachers, and preachers, to partake of those offerings?

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I don't have a problem with people today hiring their hirelings to do whatever they do in the midst of their religious traditions. The community of faithful followers of Christ have no need for such things. They are a luxury, not a necessity.

We're ALL priests of the Most High, not just those that some people choose to hire as their man-made, litergical professionals.

"The worker is worthy of his hire!" "Muzzle not the ox that treads out the corn!"

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Drawing parallels between modern, religious professionals and the ancient Levites and priests at the exclusion of the priesthood of ALL modern believers hardly lends credibility to your case.

SW

A preacher in the local area verbally berated anyone who would hand over any money to a charity that absorbs 60% of what's given to them for administrative costs.

Visiting his office and pouring over the financials of his own organization, I found it interesting that his organization absorbs 88% of what it takes in from the people for "administrative and facility costs."

So, his organization has only 12% left over to actually help others in need, where the charities he poo-pooed in his worthless sermon have 40% left to help those in need.

It appears that his congregation consists of only the mathemtically challenged.....

SW

Retrobyter said:

<Sigh.> Why do you need one? How about this:

Matthew 21:12-13
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
KJV

Mark 11:15-18
15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
KJV

So, what were these moneychangers doing? They were converting money and goods into animals that could be used for sacrifice! They considered themselves providing a service to those who came to bring their offerings to the LORD! The only part that Yeshua` condemned was that they were extorting the people as thieves would!

I just don't understand why you are making such a big deal out of all this! I'm not advocating that one MUST pay his "tithes and offerings"; it is to be done out of LOVE for God!

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Nowhere does this show that wage earners in OT times were required to hand over to the Levites any portion of their wages as a tithe. Those versus deal not at all with the tithe.

Besides, our modern system of church organizations are not comparable to the temple of the old covenant. There is no parallel. Jesus was addressing a people living at a time when they were still under the Law, and the temple was the consecrated place of His earthly dwelling.

You say that you don't see what the big deal is about this.

Let me point out the obvious another way: For most people, the tenth they hand over to organized religion for the support of the facility and its expenditures is the majority portion of what they consider their "giving," which isn't giving at all considering they reap direct, earthly benefit from the so-called "giving."

Do you understand now?

This was never about NOT supporting those petty buildings and the religious operations therein. This has been about those things being supported PRIMARILY, above the needs of fellow believers and the needy in our local communities. The luxuries of facilities and religious operations should NEVER have been elevated as a higher priority than the needs of people.

Why is that so hard to grasp? Why is that not such a big deal to you? Trivializing such an important tragedy tends to shed a very unflattering light upon your own sense of priorities in relation to the scriptures and people. Jesus gave His life for the "world" because He loved the "world." Do you think the "world" included His dying for buildings constructed by the hands of men from wood, stone, mortar and steel?

Come now. Deal what what I've actually been pointing out rather than the rabbit trails leading to issues and points I never made.

It is to be done out of one's own free will!

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Yes, and in accordance with the priorities the Lord commanded and exemplified in His written word.

All that we "own" is HIS!

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That's a given, and therefore was never made an issue in anything I said.

The offerings that they brought to the Temple were to provide meat for the priests and Levites, according to the Torah, who had no birthright of land among the tribes of Isra'el. So, what's the big deal?

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You're drawing paralleles again that have no place where organized religion is concerned. Religious church institutions are man-made, not God-breathed, so trying to erect them upon the foundations of scripture to the point that giving to them is allegedly giving to God clearly trapses into the realm of the pattently absurd.

Why is it so wrong to bring some gift to the LORD and let the "priests and Levites" that we have today, our leaders, teachers, and preachers, to partake of those offerings? "The worker is worthy of his hire!" "Muzzle not the ox that treads out the corn!"

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Because you're pointing at a crowd populated mostly by hirelings moreso than those verifiably called by the Lord.

Just because some dude was hired by a core group of people with a building and some denominational affiliation doesn't mean any one of them is truly called of God "to the ministry." Come now. Isn't your reliance upon antiquity weak enough already for you feel comfortable heaping upon it more credibility than it can possibly withstand. That structure has long since collapsed into a smouldering heap. It provides shelter for nothing any longer. The emperor has no clothes.....

Lighten up!

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How Clintonesque. That's also a sentiment I would expect of Obama since he's endorsed by that that immoral puppet this country elected for two consecutive terms.

Poisoning the well with antiquitous nonsense makes no case at all. Considering that the veil was ripped open from top to bottom at the point of His death on the cross clearly renders the temple and those bloodline priesthoods utterly irrelevant because of the shift brought about by the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

In case you're scratching your head, WE are the temple(s) of the Spirit of the Lord, not buildings piled with dead material that will all burn with this earth. Anyone putting dead material as a priority before the needs of people is a clear indication of satanic influence.

By the way: The tithe ALSO supported the nation's orphans, widows and strangers in the land...not ONLY the Levites and priests. Were we to carry your reasoning to its logical conclusion, you would then have to admit it's only the job of pastors and deacons to meet the needs of the needy.

Perhaps you don't get it, which is very typical of many institutional church-goers. The mental block from which so many of you suffer when it comes to the priorities in giving is a problem that has been around for a VERY long time. That's not a statement of hatred for anyone, only that it deeply saddens me this ever bacame a problem in the first place, and perpetuated throughout the past 1700 years, handed to protestantism by the roman catholics. You people don't realize just how roman catholic you really are.

There's nothing new under the sun, as is stated in scriptures.

SW

Seasoned Warrior, did you know that that picture of Orlando Bloom you are using from the "Kingdom of Heaven" movie is copyrighted.

That means that unless you received permission in writing from the studio, it is illegal to use that picture?

Just thought that since you likely want to be a law abiding Christian that you'd want to know....

Foreigner said:

Seasoned Warrior, did you know that that picture of Orlando Bloom you are using from the "Kingdom of Heaven" movie is copyrighted.

That means that unless you received permission in writing from the studio, it is illegal to use that picture?

Just thought that since you likely want to be a law abiding Christian that you'd want to know....

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Are you a legal expert? Is that legal advice you're offering?

In actuality, that avatar image came from a website where anyone is instructed that the images are legally public domain, and that the public can therefore download their avatar images for forums and blogs.

If you're a legal expert with bar certification, then perhaps we should sue those websites and share the money if in fact they are violating the law by providing avatar images to the general public that are copyrighted (if that's in fact the case here).

SW

Holy Arbitration Batman...