Harpazo-Rapture Saulos-Paulos

daq · Feb 28, 2013

There are three key words in the II Corinthians 12 passage to which perhaps one might pay particularly close attention concerning the revelatory-apokalupsis-vision of Saulos-Paulos and the "catching up" of the "duo" into the Third Heaven and Paradise. The three words are GSN#444 "anthropos", GSN#5108 "toioutos", and GSN#726 "harpazo", which three are each employed TWICE in critical places within the text of the account which Paulos writes concerning this his own catching away or "harpazo" more commonly known in modern times as "the Rapture". The word "toioutos" is most significant because it denotes "character or individuality" and seeing how it is employed twice in this context makes it an extreme probability that Paulos is implying that two different and distinct "individuals" were caught up or Raptured at this his own appointed-mow`ed-time in his walk with the Master.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 ASV (American Standard Version)
2. I know a man [GSN#444 anthropos] in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one [GSN#5108 toioutos] caught up [GSN#726 harpazo] even to the third heaven.
3. And I know such a [GSN#5108 toioutos] man [GSN#444 anthropos] (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
4. how that he was caught up [GSN#726 harpazo] into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Original Strong's Ref. #444
Romanized anthropos
Pronounced anth'-ro-pos
from GSN0435 and ops (the countenance; from GSN3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:
KJV--certain, man.

Original Strong's Ref. #5108
Romanized toioutos
Pronounced toy-oo'-tos
(including the other inflections); from GSN5104 and GSN3778; truly this, i.e. of this sort (to denote character or individuality):
KJV--like, such (an one).

Original Strong's Ref. #726
Romanized harpazo
Pronounced har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of GSN0138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
2. Oida anthropon enChristo pro eton dekatessaron, eite en somati ouk oida, eite ektos tou somatos ouk oida (ho Theos oiden), harpagenta ton toiouton heos tritou ouranou.
3. Kai oida ton toiouton anthropon, eite en somati eitechoris {*} tou somatos ouk oida (ho Theos oiden),
4. hoti herpage eis ton Paradeison kai ekousen arreta remata ha ouk exon anthropo lalesai.

Verse three begins with "kai" which simply means "and" or "also" ~

Original Strong's Ref. #2532
Romanized kai
Pronounced kahee
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:
KJV--and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

What happens if we understand it here as "also" instead of "and"?

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 - A Literal Rendering
2. I know an anthropon-man-faced-countenance in Christou fourteen years ago; whether in the body, not I know, or whether out of the body, not I know, (the Theos knoweth), was harpazo-caught-up that certain-toioutos-one unto the third heaven.
3. ALSO I know of a certain-toioutos-one anthropon-man-faced-countenance; whether in the body, or apart from the body, not I know, (the Theos knoweth),
4. that was harpazo-caught-up into the Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Perhaps one of them was the "old man" Saulos and was aphiemi-sent-way:

Matthew 24:36-41
36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the messengers of heaven, but my Father only.
37. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40. Then shall duo-twain-two be in the field; one shall be paralambano-received-near, and one shall be aphiemi-sent-away.
41. Duo-twain-two shall be grinding at the mill; one shall be paralambano-received-near, and one shall be aphiemi-sent-away.

The typology is of the two sinners crucified on either side of the Master at the Cross, ("crucified with Christ"). The one did not repent, but the other repented and was received near; to Paradise. Both were caught up because the other also went to the third heaven in the vision of Saul-Paul. One of them heard words unspeakable which are not right for the anthropon-man-faced-fierce-countenance to speak. If the one heard these unspeakable words in the third heaven and Paradise then it was the "other one" who spoke them and that one is he that was aphiemi-sent away, (into his destruction). Woe be the day! And "Saulos" was no more; and the new man received a white stone having a new name written therein: Paulos.

7angels · Mar 1, 2013

what time period are you referring too? judging won't happen until the judgment day and
9if i understand you correctly) what you are referring to takes place at the cross which makes your reasoning flawed. also to my understanding those that are saved will not be judge because our sins are made white as snow. thus because of Jesus we are made righteous and holy before God as if we never sinned.

so this tells me that there is a different reasoning then what you proposed above. so if i am mistaken then feel free to clarify.

God bless

daq · Mar 1, 2013

7angels said:
what time period are you referring too? judging won't happen until the judgment day and
9if i understand you correctly) what you are referring to takes place at the cross which makes your reasoning flawed. also to my understanding those that are saved will not be judge because our sins are made white as snow. thus because of Jesus we are made righteous and holy before God as if we never sinned.

so this tells me that there is a different reasoning then what you proposed above. so if i am mistaken then feel free to clarify.

God bless

It is only natural to assume that all believers will be "raptured" at the same point in time. After all, those indeed "in Messiah" are one body of Messiah, (though different parts of the body). Likewise the disciples and all saints are symbolized as the "sheep of his fold" and this gives rise to a "flock mentality" or "herd mentality" in most things concerning the body of Messiah, (which is correct when it comes to the great congregation body). However, when it comes to the appointed times, the herd or flock mentality is not applicable because it is not all "100 sheep" which go astray and get loose from the pen at the same time but rather the one sheep which the Shepherd must go and "save" while the 99 stay safe and secure in the sheepfold pen. Thus it is also with the appointed times: each in his or her own appointed times, (and then a son is truly born into the kingdom regardless of physical gender). Paul speaks the same in somewhat of an allegory of the Bar Mitzvah:

Galatians 4:1-2 KJV
1. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

And in the same Epistle as quoted in the OP, (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) the same author pens the following, which concerns the same occasion or "appointed time" in the walk of every believer, which is the "Bematos tou Christou" or "Bema Seat" of the Messiah, the judge of the "quick" or "quickened" and the dead:

2 Corinthians 5:1-10 KJV
1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So when he writes "to be absent from the body" he clearly intends the Bematos tou Christou in this context. It is not therefore "to be absent from the body" as when the body physically dies, or as in physical death, but rather at some time BEFORE the physical death of the body because of the passage quoted in the OP. Thus the Bema Seat judgment comes BEFORE the physical death of the physical body. Paulos completes the passage revealing to the reader that he already knows the TERROR OF THE LORD:

2 Corinthian 5:10-11a KJV
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11a. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

This is why the Parousia of Messiah is always "imminent" in the writings; for it concerns the day which no man knows, but the Father only, and it is to each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times). Yeshua teaches the same concerning the kingdom of God in the "Parable of the Pounds" because they thought that the kingdom of God was about to appear "in full wealth, fatness, riches, and full glory" immediately:

Luke 19:11 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately [GSN#3916 parachrema + GSN#3195 mello] appear.

Luke 19:11 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
11. Akouonton de auton tauta prostheis eipenparabolen dia to engus einai Ierousalem auton kaidokein autous hoti parachrema mellei he basileia touTheou anafainesthai.

Original Strong's Ref. #3916
Romanized parachrema
Pronounced par-akh-ray'-mah
from GSN3844 and GSN5536 (in its original sense); at the thing itself, i.e. instantly:
KJV--forthwith, immediately, presently, straightway, soon.

GSN#5536 "chrema" concerns wealth, fatness, richness, "cream" ~

Original Strong's Ref. #5536
Romanized chrema
Pronounced khray'-mah
something useful or needed, i.e. wealth, price:
KJV--money, riches.

The word "mellei" underlined above is GSN#3195 "mello" ~

Original Strong's Ref. #3195
Romanized mello
Pronounced mel'-lo
a strengthened form of GSN3199 (through the idea of expectation); to attend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation):
KJV--about, after that, be (almost), (that which is, things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after, afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.

They thought that the kingdom of God was about to come, ("mello-mellei") and that it was to arrive "parachrema" which is to say "in the full wealth-fatness-richness-riches" of it. However, the Master tells them differently, and in the same passage each servant is called up before him INDIVIDUALLY in his own appointed time:

Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

It is individual and personal just as is the whole Gospel of Yeshua Christou.
And the mow`ed-appointment is to each in his or her own appointed times …

7angels · Mar 2, 2013

sorry but this is to complicated for me to reply. i am not understanding what exactly you are talking about. you are confusing me more then explaining what you are referring too. can you speak in simple words please. this may be easy for you to understand but it is not for some of us. i will show you examples of what confuses me.

daq said:
It is only natural to assume that all believers will be "raptured" at the same point in time. After all, those indeed "in Messiah" are one body of Messiah, (though different parts of the body). Likewise the disciples and all saints are symbolized as the "sheep of his fold" and this gives rise to a "flock mentality" or "herd mentality" in most things concerning the body of Messiah, (which is correct when it comes to the great congregation body). However, when it comes to the appointed times, the herd or flock mentality is not applicable because it is not all "100 sheep" which go astray and get loose from the pen at the same time but rather the one sheep which the Shepherd must go and "save" while the 99 stay safe and secure in the sheepfold pen. Thus it is also with the appointed times: each in his or her own appointed times, (and then a son is truly born into the kingdom regardless of physical gender). Paul speaks the same in somewhat of an allegory of the Bar Mitzvah:

what is bar mitzvah and what does the above paragraph have to do about what we are talking about?
Galatians 4:1-2 KJV
1. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

And in the same Epistle as quoted in the OP, (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) the same author pens the following, which concerns the same occasion or "appointed time" in the walk of every believer, which is the "Bematos tou Christou" or "Bema Seat" of the Messiah, the judge of the "quick" or "quickened" and the dead:

i have no idea what you are trying to say here.
2 Corinthians 5:1-10 KJV
1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So when he writes "to be absent from the body" he clearly intends the Bematos tou Christou in this context. It is not therefore "to be absent from the body" as when the body physically dies, or as in physical death, but rather at some time BEFORE the physical death of the body because of the passage quoted in the OP. Thus the Bema Seat judgment comes BEFORE the physical death of the physical body. Paulos completes the passage revealing to the reader that he already knows the TERROR OF THE LORD:

again you use terms i am unfimiliar with so i am lost again. are you referring to the the great white seat of judgement takes place before we get our new bodies?
2 Corinthian 5:10-11a KJV
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11a. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

This is why the Parousia of Messiah is always "imminent" in the writings; for it concerns the day which no man knows, but the Father only, and it is to each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times). Yeshua teaches the same concerning the kingdom of God in the "Parable of the Pounds" because they thought that the kingdom of God was about to appear "in full wealth, fatness, riches, and full glory" immediately:

are you saying the rapture will happen to each one of us at different times?
Luke 19:11 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately [GSN#3916 parachrema + GSN#3195 mello] appear.

Luke 19:11 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
11. Akouonton de auton tauta prostheis eipenparabolen dia to engus einai Ierousalem auton kaidokein autous hoti parachrema mellei he basileia touTheou anafainesthai.

Original Strong's Ref. #3916
Romanized parachrema
Pronounced par-akh-ray'-mah
from GSN3844 and GSN5536 (in its original sense); at the thing itself, i.e. instantly:
KJV--forthwith, immediately, presently, straightway, soon.

GSN#5536 "chrema" concerns wealth, fatness, richness, "cream" ~

Original Strong's Ref. #5536
Romanized chrema
Pronounced khray'-mah
something useful or needed, i.e. wealth, price:
KJV--money, riches.

The word "mellei" underlined above is GSN#3195 "mello" ~

Original Strong's Ref. #3195
Romanized mello
Pronounced mel'-lo
a strengthened form of GSN3199 (through the idea of expectation); to attend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation):
KJV--about, after that, be (almost), (that which is, things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after, afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.

They thought that the kingdom of God was about to come, ("mello-mellei") and that it was to arrive "parachrema" which is to say "in the full wealth-fatness-richness-riches" of it. However, the Master tells them differently, and in the same passage each servant is called up before him INDIVIDUALLY in his own appointed time:

Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

It is individual and personal just as is the whole Gospel of Yeshua Christou.
And the mow`ed-appointment is to each in his or her own appointed times …
i don't understand what you posted here. i don't know what a mow'ed-appointment is so it makes it had to understand.

once i can understand where you are going and what you are talking about then i will be able to understand where you are coming from.

God bless

Arnie Manitoba · Mar 2, 2013

7 angels ...... dont worry .... you are not the only person that cannot piece together Daq's puzzle fragments.

Angelina · Mar 2, 2013

It's good to see you here brother daq, ^_^ although it is a lot different here then the ProphecyTalk forum as I am sure you have already noted...I am looking forward to your study on the temples which I hope you will get to sometime...

Shalom! Blessings!

Retrobyter · Mar 2, 2013

Shabbat shalom, daq.

daq said:
There are three key words in the II Corinthians 12 passage to which perhaps one might pay particularly close attention concerning the revelatory-apokalupsis-vision of Saulos-Paulos and the "catching up" of the "duo" into the Third Heaven and Paradise. The three words are GSN#444 "anthropos", GSN#5108 "toioutos", and GSN#726 "harpazo", which three are each employed TWICE in critical places within the text of the account which Paulos writes concerning this his own catching away or "harpazo" more commonly known in modern times as "the Rapture". The word "toioutos" is most significant because it denotes "character or individuality" and seeing how it is employed twice in this context makes it an extreme probability that Paulos is implying that two different and distinct "individuals" were caught up or Raptured at this his own appointed-mow`ed-time in his walk with the Master.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 ASV (American Standard Version)
2. I know a man [GSN#444 anthropos] in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one [GSN#5108 toioutos] caught up [GSN#726 harpazo] even to the third heaven.
3. And I know such a [GSN#5108 toioutos] man [GSN#444 anthropos] (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
4. how that he was caught up [GSN#726 harpazo] into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Original Strong's Ref. #444
Romanized anthropos
Pronounced anth'-ro-pos
from GSN0435 and ops (the countenance; from GSN3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:
KJV--certain, man.

Original Strong's Ref. #5108
Romanized toioutos
Pronounced toy-oo'-tos
(including the other inflections); from GSN5104 and GSN3778; truly this, i.e. of this sort (to denote character or individuality):
KJV--like, such (an one).

Original Strong's Ref. #726
Romanized harpazo
Pronounced har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of GSN0138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
2. Oida anthropon enChristo pro eton dekatessaron, eite en somati ouk oida, eite ektos tou somatos ouk oida (ho Theos oiden), harpagenta ton toiouton heos tritou ouranou.
3. Kai oida ton toiouton anthropon, eite en somati eitechoris {*} tou somatos ouk oida (ho Theos oiden),
4. hoti herpage eis ton Paradeison kai ekousen arreta remata ha ouk exon anthropo lalesai.

Verse three begins with "kai" which simply means "and" or "also" ~

Original Strong's Ref. #2532
Romanized kai
Pronounced kahee
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:
KJV--and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

What happens if we understand it here as "also" instead of "and"?

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 - A Literal Rendering
2. I know an anthropon-man-faced-countenance in Christou fourteen years ago; whether in the body, not I know, or whether out of the body, not I know, (the Theos knoweth), was harpazo-caught-up that certain-toioutos-one unto the third heaven.
3. ALSO I know of a certain-toioutos-one anthropon-man-faced-countenance; whether in the body, or apart from the body, not I know, (the Theos knoweth),
4. that was harpazo-caught-up into the Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Perhaps one of them was the "old man" Saulos and was aphiemi-sent-way:

Matthew 24:36-41
36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the messengers of heaven, but my Father only.
37. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40. Then shall duo-twain-two be in the field; one shall be paralambano-received-near, and one shall be aphiemi-sent-away.
41. Duo-twain-two shall be grinding at the mill; one shall be paralambano-received-near, and one shall be aphiemi-sent-away.

The typology is of the two sinners crucified on either side of the Master at the Cross, ("crucified with Christ"). The one did not repent, but the other repented and was received near; to Paradise. Both were caught up because the other also went to the third heaven in the vision of Saul-Paul. One of them heard words unspeakable which are not right for the anthropon-man-faced-fierce-countenance to speak. If the one heard these unspeakable words in the third heaven and Paradise then it was the "other one" who spoke them and that one is he that was aphiemi-sent away, (into his destruction). Woe be the day! And "Saulos" was no more; and the new man received a white stone having a new name written therein: Paulos.

That's an interesting theory, but all one has to do is follow Shaa'uwl's life in the book of Acts:

Acts 13
13 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Bar-jesus:
7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.
KJV

It was from THIS point on that Shaa'uwl was called (surnamed) "Paulos," the Greek form of the Latin "Paulus," having been given Sergius Paulus' surname as a measure of respect from the man. This was a Roman custom: If a person who was a Roman citizen wished to bestow an honor to another, he would give him his own surname as a measure of brotherhood. He actually would be considered of the citizen's own clan.

Sergius was introduced to the Lord at great pains, thanks to the opposition of the sorcerer. So, because of Shaa'uwl's persistence in leading him to the Lord and because of the answer of prayer which Shaa'uwl received in blinding the sorcerer, Sergius showed this Roman sign of respect to Shaa'uwl according to his custom, and because Shaa'uwl was considered an "apostolos" (a "set-off" person or a person "set off" or "singled out" for a mission or service) to the Gentiles, he wore the name proudly.

Don't be guilty of "making a mountain out of a molehill." Paulos MAY have been talking about two people, but he also MAY have been simply reinforcing through reiteration the thought that he wasn't sure if this person of whom he was speaking was really there in the third "ouranos" (the third sky, i.e. the sky around the third earth, the earth after the coming Deluge of Fire that Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3:3-13) and "paradeisos" (the "park" of trees or "orchard" where the Tree of Life grows, the New Jerusalem), or not! We don't even know for certain whether he was talking about himself in the third person or truly about someone else!

daq · Mar 2, 2013

Shabbat Shalom (belated) Retrobyter

Oh if only the modern shepherds would indeed follow the entire conversion story of Saul into Paul through the book of Acts then perhaps some might begin to understand what he means when he says "according to my Gospel". His entire experience is laid out typologically revealing the process involved in the Gospel to the Gentiles, (though himself not a Gentile). For instance every one has his appointed times wherein the same will be tested under the "governor of Damascus-Babylon" who is under "Aretas" the king of Arabia, which is desert and the dry-arid places, (which portion of the story immediately precedes the section quoted in the OP). Paul likewise gives certain clues to his true identity such as Romans 16:13, (and indeed there is only one "Rufus" mentioned twice in the New Testament).

Angelina said:
It's good to see you here brother daq, ^_^ although it is a lot different here then the ProphecyTalk forum as I am sure you have already noted...I am looking forward to your study on the temples which I hope you will get to sometime...

Shalom! Blessings!

Hi Angelina and thank you; as you might also have noticed, not a big thread starter am I, and already I have been accused of cluttering up the forum with useless commentary, (at that other forum, in about a years' time, I believe I had only 11 OP-threads commenced by myself). However, it really is all about the temple because the man is the temple of the Creator and is designed for this very purpose. The temple topic can enter into just about any discussion and especially in dealing with Biblical eschatology and prophecy. Give me a "starting point" question or statement and if I have any understanding of it I will certainly share like an open book; and that is here in this thread, or I can start a new thread knowing where to begin from your comments. Shalom-Peace in Yeshua.

Edit ~ Added a link to my signature

daq · Mar 3, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Don't be guilty of "making a mountain out of a molehill." Paulos MAY have been talking about two people, but he also MAY have been simply reinforcing through reiteration the thought that he wasn't sure if this person of whom he was speaking was really there in the third "ouranos" (the third sky, i.e. the sky around the third earth, the earth after the coming Deluge of Fire that Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3:3-13) and "paradeisos" (the "park" of trees or "orchard" where the Tree of Life grows, the New Jerusalem), or not! We don't even know for certain whether he was talking about himself in the third person or truly about someone else!

If Paul does not speak of himself then why does he state that he was given a "thorn in the flesh", in the form of "a messenger-angel of Satan to buffet him", so that he not become haughty or exalted due to the abundance of revelations that he had received? According to the context which flows Paul speaks of himself being caught up or harpazo-harpagenta-raptured to "the third heaven" and Paradise:

2 Corinthians 12:7 KJV
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

2 Corinthians 12:7 TUA
7. Kai te huperbole ton apokalupseon, dio {*}hina-me huperairomai, edothe moi skolops te sarki --angelos Satana hina me kolafize, hina-me huperairomai.

The word for "messenger" here is the same "angelos" translated as angel in many other places. If one is to understand the writings of Paul then the same must believe what things he states even concerning himself. And that is that he walks according to the Spirit, meaning he speaks and writes the same way according to the Spirit, meaning also by his own words that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood" (physical people) but rather with supernatural powers:

Ephesians 6:10-12 KJV
10. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If then Paul claims the same mother as "Rufus" then who does he claim to be?

Romans 16:13 KJV
13. Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Mark 15:21 KJV
21. And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.

Paul claims to be Alexander, brother of Rufus, and son of Simon the "Kurenaios" (another play on words). If Paul is in fact one of those called "Alexander" in the Acts and other places of the New Testament then who or what is "the thorn in his side" and "messenger-angel of Satan" that was allowed to buffet him?

1 Timothy 1:18-20 KJV
18. This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19. Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20. Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Are these real physical people that Paul says he "delivered unto Satan"? I think not but rather "unclean spirits" which have done him much damage and are likewise portrayed in his epistles for our learning and understanding:

2 Timothy 4:13-15 KJV
13. The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
14. Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15. Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

Is Paul wishing vengeance upon another human being by the name of "Alexander the coppersmith" ("chalkeus" the brazier-brass craftsman) who did him much damage? I think not brother; rather, this "Alexander the bronze worker" is his own allegorical Didymus-Iskariotes-duo-twin-scapegoat-counterpart which is sent away into destruction, (at the mo`ed-time appointed) in the final atonement of the End. Likewise he warns Timothy of the same, saying, "of whom be thou ware also". "Beware the anthropon-man-faced-countenance, for they will deliver you up to the Sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their Synagogues; and you shall be brought before governors and kings for the sake of the Master, for a testimony against them and the heathen" (Matthew 10:17-18). Likewise "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees, the leaven of the Sadducees, and the leaven of Herod" (Matthew 16:6, Mark 8:15, Luke 12:1). And again: Beware the machinations of "Alexander the coppersmith"…

daq · Mar 6, 2013

Retrobyter said:
It was from THIS point on that Shaa'uwl was called (surnamed) "Paulos," the Greek form of the Latin "Paulus," having been given Sergius Paulus' surname as a measure of respect from the man. This was a Roman custom: If a person who was a Roman citizen wished to bestow an honor to another, he would give him his own surname as a measure of brotherhood. He actually would be considered of the citizen's own clan.

Sergius was introduced to the Lord at great pains, thanks to the opposition of the sorcerer. So, because of Shaa'uwl's persistence in leading him to the Lord and because of the answer of prayer which Shaa'uwl received in blinding the sorcerer, Sergius showed this Roman sign of respect to Shaa'uwl according to his custom, and because Shaa'uwl was considered an "apostolos" (a "set-off" person or a person "set off" or "singled out" for a mission or service) to the Gentiles, he wore the name proudly.

Don't be guilty of "making a mountain out of a molehill." Paulos MAY have been talking about two people, but he also MAY have been simply reinforcing through reiteration the thought that he wasn't sure if this person of whom he was speaking was really there in the third "ouranos" (the third sky, i.e. the sky around the third earth, the earth after the coming Deluge of Fire that Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3:3-13) and "paradeisos" (the "park" of trees or "orchard" where the Tree of Life grows, the New Jerusalem), or not! We don't even know for certain whether he was talking about himself in the third person or truly about someone else!

Nay but, O man, do you not see how the Scripture speaks of Cain then Abel? Ishmael then Isaac? Esau then Jacob? Pharaoh then Moses? Saul then David? Saul with murder in his heart, though he felt righteously justified in his actions at the stoning of Stephen, but repented when he saw that great Light of Messiah and then became Paul? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay to make OUT OF THE SAME LUMP one vessel unto honour, and another unto infamy? It is you and your enemy who are from the same lump, and myself with my own enemy came from the same lump. Each man and his counterpart from their own lump which the Most High did make in the same place and at the same time. You were not born from my natural mothers' womb and I not from yours, likewise my enemy mine and your enemy yours are not the same personage though they are treated as one for all of us to learn about together in the Word.

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, out of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto infamy? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

daq · Mar 8, 2013

Trumpeter said:
Timothy, sift My wheat by all I have given you!

Are you "Timothy" or are you quoting him?

Luke 22:31-32 KJV
31. And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Or are there still two of you also? A duo of sorts ...

Retrobyter · Mar 8, 2013

Shalom, daq.

daq said:
Nay but, O man, do you not see how the Scripture speaks of Cain then Abel? Ishmael then Isaac? Esau then Jacob? Pharaoh then Moses? Saul then David? Saul with murder in his heart, though he felt righteously justified in his actions at the stoning of Stephen, but repented when he saw that great Light of Messiah and then became Paul? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay to make OUT OF THE SAME LUMP one vessel unto honour, and another unto infamy? It is you and your enemy who are from the same lump, and myself with my own enemy came from the same lump. Each man and his counterpart from their own lump which the Most High did make in the same place and at the same time. You were not born from my natural mothers' womb and I not from yours, likewise my enemy mine and your enemy yours are not the same personage though they are treated as one for all of us to learn about together in the Word.

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, out of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto infamy? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Why do you keep doing this stuff? That's WAY out there, bro'! So, let me get this straight: You believe that Paul was Alexander (Saul) and that this is proved because Rufus is from the same mother, but Rufus' father was the same father of Alexander? Aren't you forgetting about TIME?

Sometimes, people are married to one individual, but then after TIME and death of an individual, they are married to another. Don't you think it's possible that Paul could have had a HALF-BROTHER? Again, you're assuming more than the text gives us, AND you are then building some W-I-L-D teaching based on that assumption!

Be inquisitive and imaginative, but ALWAYS temper it with God's truth found ONLY in His Word and ALWAYS with a measure of humility, admitting that your imagination and speculation is just that and nothing more.

For my part, I find no redeeming quality in this teaching of Yin-Yang philosophy embedded within your "good-guy/bad-guy from the same lump" teaching.

Keep studying but keep it REAL!

daq · Mar 8, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

Why do you keep doing this stuff? That's WAY out there, bro'! So, let me get this straight: You believe that Paul was Alexander (Saul) and that this is proved because Rufus is from the same mother, but Rufus' father was the same father of Alexander? Aren't you forgetting about TIME?

Sometimes, people are married to one individual, but then after TIME and death of an individual, they are married to another. Don't you think it's possible that Paul could have had a HALF-BROTHER? Again, you're assuming more than the text gives us, AND you are then building some W-I-L-D teaching based on that assumption!

Be inquisitive and imaginative, but ALWAYS temper it with God's truth found ONLY in His Word and ALWAYS with a measure of humility, admitting that your imagination and speculation is just that and nothing more.

For my part, I find no redeeming quality in this teaching of Yin-Yang philosophy embedded within your "good-guy/bad-guy from the same lump" teaching.

Keep studying but keep it REAL!

Look back at yourself and look into the mirror: You have an avatar image file with a "3-D VIEW OF THE RAPTURE" where every believer is apparently to be "scooped away" and "caught up" from the earth all at one time, (and apparently from the artwork they are all headed for the SUN!). Yet the word translated "caught up" in the Greek, which Paul employs in every so-called "rapture" passage, is HARPAZO. Yet here in the passage from the OP he employs HARPAZO TWICE and you feel no need to recognize this FACT in you paradigm! Talk about keeping it REAL! :lol:

Trumpeter said:
No daq, I am not Timothy. I have been called to Trumpet these Letters.

Once upon a limne there was at it were a little fish called "skillet" ... Can anyone imagine why a little fish should be called skillet? And little skillet loved to hang out with all the elder fish of the great and wide thalassa; for they were always going out on wild excursions and dangerous adventures into the deepest, darkest, caves and caverns at the bottom of the abussos. Now little skillet the fish knew better than to roam about to and fro with this genos-kind of school; for his Father had warned him many times over, even sending messengers whenever skillet was nowhere to be found, so as to bring him back home safely. Then one day skillet met a great and hefty bottom dweller fish who lived in the deepest and darkest cavern beneath the sea and they became friends. And the name of that one was Bar-Timaeus, son of Timaeus, for because that one tarried always in the deepest and darkest caves of the sea he was, therefore, a double blind bottom dweller; even twice as blind as a Bat, and the name of his father was Tame', which is the same Timaeus, which is the same Talmai of the three sons of Anak. And the great and monstrous bottom dweller fish, of the deepest and darkest cavern of the abussos, that is Timeaus the mighty one; the same loved to eat up all the little fish who wandered into his cave. Can anyone imagine what Timaeus could do with a skillet? So Timaeus befriended the little fish called skillet with ever so subtle flatteries, puffing up the pride of his little fragile ego, even giving to skillet his favorite trumpet and naming him one of his messengers. And as the warm beginnings of a new friendship began to blossom it came to pass that the little skillet went out and about for to round up all his friends, blowing his new trumpet, for to bring them all to Timaeus. Do you happen to know any fish by the name of skillet? Or was it out of the skillet and into the fire already?

Retrobyter · Mar 10, 2013

Shalom, daq.

daq said:
Look back at yourself and look into the mirror: You have an avatar image file with a "3-D VIEW OF THE RAPTURE" where every believer is apparently to be "scooped away" and "caught up" from the earth all at one time, (and apparently from the artwork they are all headed for the SUN!). Yet the word translated "caught up" in the Greek, which Paul employs in every so-called "rapture" passage, is HARPAZO. Yet here in the passage from the OP he employs HARPAZO TWICE and you feel no need to recognize this FACT in you paradigm! Talk about keeping it REAL! :lol:

I'm sorry that my avatar confused you, but travel is shown along the white lines from left to right, not right to left. I used to have that information in my signature, but somewhere along the way, I dropped that info. I've since fixed my signature. Yeshua` will arrive from the New Jerusalem (where He is currently "building us rooms" in His Father's house), and arrive in the atmosphere of this planet. He will then send out His messengers in all directions to gather His elect - His chosen ones - and collect them to the skies above Isra'el. Then, He will descend with His armies from the sky.

The New Jerusalem is coming, too, but it is traveling more slowly and will arrive a thousand years behind Him, after He's had a chance to clean up the mess we humans have made of this present earth, both socially and physically, purge the earth with Fire, and re-create the third earth with its third atmosphere - its third ouranos-sky or "third heaven." His zeal and passion was so great and the need so pressing that He will arrive much more quickly to rescue (save) His people from annihilation!

It's not a "third heaven" spatially or dimensionally or even "spiritually"; it's a "third heaven" CHRONOLOGICALLY! Read 2 Peter 3:3-13 in this regard! The "first heaven" (or the first ouranoi-skies) was before the Flood of Noach's day; the "second heaven" (or the second ouranoi-skies) is the sky above our heads today, and the "third heaven" (or the third ouranoi-skies) will be the sky or atmosphere around the New Earth after it has been re-created from the ashes of this present earth.

Whatever YOU think "harpazoo" means, it does not mean "to catch up"; it means "to snatch away," and that is PRECISELY what the aggeloi-messengers will do, as they catch the eklektoi-elect away, not to some place called erroneously "Heaven," but to His Land, the Land of Isra'el, where He will rule and reign for a thousand years before He defeats all of His enemies, putting them under His feet, and then turning over the Empire to His Father for eternity after the judgment and after death itself is destroyed!

Got all that? It's very important that you do! We as believers need to get away from this "spiritual" nonsense and get back to the reality of how matters are presented in God's Word! The "spiritual" takes that we currently have make us the LAUGHING STOCK of society! It's no wonder that they picture us as Bible-thumpers and morons in the movies and TV shows! Sure, our message will be hard enough for them to accept, but there's no sense in COMPOUNDING their assessments of us with more garbage on top!

daq said:
Once upon a limne there was at it were a little fish called "skillet" ... Can anyone imagine why a little fish should be called skillet? And little skillet loved to hang out with all the elder fish of the great and wide thalassa; for they were always going out on wild excursions and dangerous adventures into the deepest, darkest, caves and caverns at the bottom of the abussos. Now little skillet the fish knew better than to roam about to and fro with this genos-kind of school; for his Father had warned him many times over, even sending messengers whenever skillet was nowhere to be found, so as to bring him back home safely. Then one day skillet met a great and hefty bottom dweller fish who lived in the deepest and darkest cavern beneath the sea and they became friends. And the name of that one was Bar-Timaeus, son of Timaeus, for because that one tarried always in the deepest and darkest caves of the sea he was, therefore, a double blind bottom dweller; even twice as blind as a Bat, and the name of his father was Tame', which is the same Timaeus, which is the same Talmai of the three sons of Anak. And the great and monstrous bottom dweller fish, of the deepest and darkest cavern of the abussos, that is Timeaus the mighty one; the same loved to eat up all the little fish who wandered into his cave. Can anyone imagine what Timaeus could do with a skillet? So Timaeus befriended the little fish called skillet with ever so subtle flatteries, puffing up the pride of his little fragile ego, even giving to skillet his favorite trumpet and naming him one of his messengers. And as the warm beginnings of a new friendship began to blossom it came to pass that the little skillet went out and about for to round up all his friends, blowing his new trumpet, for to bring them all to Timaeus. Do you happen to know any fish by the name of skillet? Or was it out of the skillet and into the fire already?

Oh, and about your little parable: It truly is hard for you to stay on one little thought to its completion, isn't it? This thing is ALL OVER THE PLACE with your "Bar-Timaeus - Timaeus - Talmai - sons of Anak" diversion! So, because they are loosely related to each other in language you think they are "spiritually" related? That's the kind of nonsense I've been talking about! Where's the biblical support you think you have for this parable?

daq · Mar 10, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

I'm sorry that my avatar confused you, but travel is shown along the white lines from left to right, not right to left. I used to have that information in my signature, but somewhere along the way, I dropped that info. I've since fixed my signature. Yeshua` will arrive from the New Jerusalem (where He is currently "building us rooms" in His Father's house), and arrive in the atmosphere of this planet. He will then send out His messengers in all directions to gather His elect - His chosen ones - and collect them to the skies above Isra'el. Then, He will descend with His armies from the sky.

The New Jerusalem is coming, too, but it is traveling more slowly and will arrive a thousand years behind Him, after He's had a chance to clean up the mess we humans have made of this present earth, both socially and physically, purge the earth with Fire, and re-create the third earth with its third atmosphere - its third ouranos-sky or "third heaven." His zeal and passion was so great and the need so pressing that He will arrive much more quickly to rescue (save) His people from annihilation!

It's not a "third heaven" spatially or dimensionally or even "spiritually"; it's a "third heaven" CHRONOLOGICALLY! Read 2 Peter 3:3-13 in this regard! The "first heaven" (or the first ouranoi-skies) was before the Flood of Noach's day; the "second heaven" (or the second ouranoi-skies) is the sky above our heads today, and the "third heaven" (or the third ouranoi-skies) will be the sky or atmosphere around the New Earth after it has been re-created from the ashes of this present earth.

Whatever YOU think "harpazoo" means, it does not mean "to catch up"; it means "to snatch away," and that is PRECISELY what the aggeloi-messengers will do, as they catch the eklektoi-elect away, not to some place called erroneously "Heaven," but to His Land, the Land of Isra'el, where He will rule and reign for a thousand years before He defeats all of His enemies, putting them under His feet, and then turning over the Empire to His Father for eternity after the judgment and after death itself is destroyed!

Got all that? It's very important that you do! We as believers need to get away from this "spiritual" nonsense and get back to the reality of how matters are presented in God's Word! The "spiritual" takes that we currently have make us the LAUGHING STOCK of society! It's no wonder that they picture us as Bible-thumpers and morons in the movies and TV shows! Sure, our message will be hard enough for them to accept, but there's no sense in COMPOUNDING their assessments of us with more garbage on top!

Oh, and about your little parable: It truly is hard for you to stay on one little thought to its completion, isn't it? This thing is ALL OVER THE PLACE with your "Bar-Timaeus - Timaeus - Talmai - sons of Anak" diversion! So, because they are loosely related to each other in language you think they are "spiritually" related? That's the kind of nonsense I've been talking about! Where's the biblical support you think you have for this parable?

That "parable" (your words not mine) was not written to *you* but to the person who posted another giant meaningless "letter from Timothy" in this thread. Do you think I come here imagining that my words are for "one and all" like some great orator? Do you also know another who used to be called "skillet"? Sorry, I did not realize that was you. Have you also been at other forums posting thousand-page reams full of the "letters to Timothy" such as the person I addressed? (whose post is now deleted causing more confusion for those who did not read it). Forgive me, I did not realize that was also you. But I must say it really is pathetic watching you and your friends intentionally trying to derail everything said in every thread that disagrees with your flesh kingdom mindsets. If you cannot allow a brother to have a voice in your gatherings just because you disagree with him then you are nothing more than a spiritual murderer who hates his brother enough to attempt to silence his voice. As for Jerusalem of above you apparently are not even capable of believing the Scripture because of the same blind Bartimaeus son of Timothy mind of the flesh mentality. As for myself I believe the Scripture when it states that we have come to Jerusalem of above, sorry again that you do not:

Galatians 4:22-29 KJV
22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Do you not see that word "ALLEGORY" in blue there skillet?
And the FLESHMONGERS persecuting those born after the Spirit; do you not see that part also? Even so it is now ... :lol:
Poor little skillet and his blind master Timothy: the two of you also have not come to a mount that can be touched ...

Hebrews 12:18-29 KJV
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29. For our God is a consuming fire.

Retrobyter · Mar 10, 2013

Shalom, daq.

daq said:
That "parable" (your words not mine) was not written to *you* but to the person who posted another giant meaningless "letter from Timothy" in this thread. Do you think I come here imagining that my words are for "one and all" like some great orator? Do you also know another who used to be called "skillet"? Sorry, I did not realize that was you. Have you also been at other forums posting thousand-page reams full of the "letters to Timothy" such as the person I addressed? (whose post is now deleted causing more confusion for those who did not read it). Forgive me, I did not realize that was also you. But I must say it really is pathetic watching you and your friends intentionally trying to derail everything said in every thread that disagrees with your flesh kingdom mindsets. If you cannot allow a brother to have a voice in your gatherings just because you disagree with him then you are nothing more than a spiritual murderer who hates his brother enough to attempt to silence his voice. As for Jerusalem of above you apparently are not even capable of believing the Scripture because of the same blind Bartimaeus son of Timothy mind of the flesh mentality. As for myself I believe the Scripture when it states that we have come to Jerusalem of above, sorry again that you do not:

Galatians 4:22-29 KJV
22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Do you not see that word "ALLEGORY" in blue there skillet?
And the FLESHMONGERS persecuting those born after the Spirit; do you not see that part also? Even so it is now ... :lol:
Poor little skillet and his blind master Timothy: the two of you also have not come to a mount that can be touched ...

Hebrews 12:18-29 KJV
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29. For our God is a consuming fire.

Freaky. So you miss almost all of what I said in five paragraphs and focus on the ONE?! I wasn't trying to derail you or your precious parable to Timothy's "Trumpeter" (with whom I do NOT agree); I was merely pointing out the way that you weave together ideas from various parts of Scripture that do not belong together. Frankly, I was about to just delete that portion of the quote and leave it alone. I, too, believe that Timothy's "Trumpeter" would do better not to trumpet those ramblings.

Let me try this again without that last paragraph:

I'm sorry that my avatar confused you, but travel is shown along the white lines from left to right, not right to left. I used to have that information in my signature, but somewhere along the way, I dropped that info. I've since fixed my signature. Yeshua` will arrive from the New Jerusalem (where He is currently "building us rooms" in His Father's house), and arrive in the atmosphere of this planet. He will then send out His messengers in all directions to gather His elect - His chosen ones - and collect them to the skies above Isra'el. Then, He will descend with His armies from the sky.

The New Jerusalem is coming, too, but it is traveling more slowly and will arrive a thousand years behind Him, after He's had a chance to clean up the mess we humans have made of this present earth, both socially and physically, purge the earth with Fire, and re-create the third earth with its third atmosphere - its third ouranos-sky or "third heaven." His zeal and passion was so great and the need so pressing that He will arrive much more quickly to rescue (save) His people from annihilation!

It's not a "third heaven" spatially or dimensionally or even "spiritually"; it's a "third heaven" CHRONOLOGICALLY! Read 2 Peter 3:3-13 in this regard! The "first heaven" (or the first ouranoi-skies) was before the Flood of Noach's day; the "second heaven" (or the second ouranoi-skies) is the sky above our heads today, and the "third heaven" (or the third ouranoi-skies) will be the sky or atmosphere around the New Earth after it has been re-created from the ashes of this present earth.

Whatever YOU think "harpazoo" means, it does not mean "to catch up"; it means "to snatch away," and that is PRECISELY what the aggeloi-messengers will do, as they catch the eklektoi-elect away, not to some place called erroneously "Heaven," but to His Land, the Land of Isra'el, where He will rule and reign for a thousand years before He defeats all of His enemies, putting them under His feet, and then turning over the Empire to His Father for eternity after the judgment and after death itself is destroyed!

Got all that? It's very important that you do! We as believers need to get away from this "spiritual" nonsense and get back to the reality of how matters are presented in God's Word! The "spiritual" takes that we currently have make us the LAUGHING STOCK of society! It's no wonder that they picture us as Bible-thumpers and morons in the movies and TV shows! Sure, our message will be hard enough for them to accept, but there's no sense in COMPOUNDING their assessments of us with more garbage on top!

veteran · Mar 11, 2013

The matter is simple. No need to slice and dice it. Paul was being modest in speaking of an experience he once had. He was at one time stoned and left for dead. He is relating a near-death type of experience. Many people have had them, though not to the level of Paul's experience.

We were shown early on in God's Word, in Eccl.12:5-7 about what happens when the flesh body dies, and were told about it in relation to a "silver cord" connection between one's spirit and one's flesh body. Apparently, Paul's silver cord was not severed, so he did not die. How this is related to the 'harpazo' idea is because that's what will happen to all alive on earth on the day of Christ's coming, all will be changed at the twinkling of an eye, the heavenly revealed, even those who pierced Christ seeing Him come in the clouds with Glory. At that point, this flesh world time will be over.

daq · Mar 11, 2013

veteran said:
The matter is simple. No need to slice and dice it. Paul was being modest in speaking of an experience he once had. He was at one time stoned and left for dead. He is relating a near-death type of experience. Many people have had them, though not to the level of Paul's experience.

We were shown early on in God's Word, in Eccl.12:5-7 about what happens when the flesh body dies, and were told about it in relation to a "silver cord" connection between one's spirit and one's flesh body. Apparently, Paul's silver cord was not severed, so he did not die. How this is related to the 'harpazo' idea is because that's what will happen to all alive on earth on the day of Christ's coming, all will be changed at the twinkling of an eye, the heavenly revealed, even those who pierced Christ seeing Him come in the clouds with Glory. At that point, this flesh world time will be over.

Hi veteran, much closer to the truth IMO. However, not all at the same time but each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times). No one gets to pick and choose the day of his or her salvation. No man knows the day or the hour:

Acts 2:14-21 KJV
14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This is when and where it will truly count for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord. It is not the highly emotional altar call or sinners prayer in the beginning of the walk where someone makes his or her own choice but rather it is the slaying which is about to come, which was not planned, and comes as a snare, unawares. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood; dreams, visions, locusts, teeth of lions, blood, fire, pillars of smoke, and there shall be no escape. Whosoever shall seek to save his soul shall apollumi-destroy it, but he that endures unto the end, the same shall be saved. The Master does not set any of his servants over all his goods until the servant has been tried, tested, and found true. As the Scripture says, Pray that you may be found worthy to flee, run, swim like the good iron swims when the staff of the Shepherd passes over it; and to stand before the Son of man in that day, (upon a Sea of transparency like glass having been mingled with holy baptismal fire).

veteran · Mar 18, 2013

daq said:
Hi veteran, much closer to the truth IMO. However, not all at the same time but each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times). No one gets to pick and choose the day of his or her salvation. No man knows the day or the hour:

No man knows the day or hour, in the sense of year, month, day, etc. But yes we can... know within a three and half day period when Christ's coming will occur. It was shown us in Rev.11 when God's two witnesses are killed and after their dead bodies lay in the street of Jerusalem for three and one half days, and then they resurrect. Then Christ's coming immediately happens with the 3rd Woe and 7th Trumpet. As a matter of fact, our Lord Jesus warned the Church at Sardis to repent and hold fast, lest they failed to recognize in what hour (Greek 'hora') He would come.

Possibly you're wrongly assuming that the change at a twinkling of an eye Paul spoke of doesn't apply to the wicked on earth at Christ's return. It does apply, as all on earth will be changed on that day. That change of 1 Cor.15 is not synomonous with Christ's Salvation (see also Isaiah 25). Only something putting on immortality then is synomonous with Christ's Salvation with that event, and that will only occur upon His Faithful Church that remains here faithful to Him at that coming. Right after Christ's coming, all nations will be in spiritual type bodies. But the unsaved will still have something mortal that is still liable to perish in the later "lake of fire".

daq · Mar 18, 2013

veteran said:
No man knows the day or hour, in the sense of year, month, day, etc. But yes we can... know within a three and half day period when Christ's coming will occur. It was shown us in Rev.11 when God's two witnesses are killed and after their dead bodies lay in the street of Jerusalem for three and one half days, and then they resurrect. Then Christ's coming immediately happens with the 3rd Woe and 7th Trumpet. As a matter of fact, our Lord Jesus warned the Church at Sardis to repent and hold fast, lest they failed to recognize in what hour (Greek 'hora') He would come.

Possibly you're wrongly assuming that the change at a twinkling of an eye Paul spoke of doesn't apply to the wicked on earth at Christ's return. It does apply, as all on earth will be changed on that day. That change of 1 Cor.15 is not synomonous with Christ's Salvation (see also Isaiah 25). Only something putting on immortality then is synomonous with Christ's Salvation with that event, and that will only occur upon His Faithful Church that remains here faithful to Him at that coming. Right after Christ's coming, all nations will be in spiritual type bodies. But the unsaved will still have something mortal that is still liable to perish in the later "lake of fire".

Unless one dies to self the same abides alone and does not bear the fruit of the kingdom of heaven:

John 12:24-26 KJV
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 KJV
35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Therefore it does not speak of the physical death, of the physical body, at the end of what the natural man calls "life" ...

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