Why I believe in the Harpazo
- Thread starter Trekson
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Hi Keras, I'll say it again, the Church is not Israel, in the sense you try to make it. Most of the prophecies you quoted will be for the living descendants of Israel. The 144,000+.The 144,000 is not the church. God doesn't play name games or numbers games. He says what He means and He means what he says.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Re; numbers and names; I assure you they ARE important to God. Books are written on the importance of them.
God says what He means and the Word says: Not all the offspring of Israel are truly Israel....Romans 9:6 This proves there is a mixture of peoples in the Church. Not all...infers that most will be descendants of Jacob, with part from non Israelite people grafted in.
The true Church is the true Israel. I see you made a poor attempt to refute n2thelights post #9, where he proves that fact. I have used that list, [acknowledgement; EW Bullinger] to write a article, using 78 scriptures in the affirmative. Find more that that to refute it!
[SIZE=medium]The true Christian Ekklesia is Israel.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: the true Christian Church are designated by God to be Israelites. The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, only one Church, only one elect, whether they be Jew or Gentile by birth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians, chosen of God: Rom. 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isa.1:2-4, Isa 63:8, Hosea 11:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Rom. 8:14-16, Gal. 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalm 78:52, Isa. 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Eze 34:12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Heb. 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chron. 29:14-18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Heb. 10:20-21, I Tim. 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deut. 27:9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the priests of God: Isa. 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jer. 2:2, Eze. 16:32, Hosea 1:2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Cor. 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chron. 20:7, Psalm 105:5-6, Isa. 41:8[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Rom. 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deut. 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalm 105:7-10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] The New[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]Covenant is with Christians: 1 Cor. 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Eze. 34:25[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation. The Jewish remnant eventually accept Jesus as Messiah. Zech 13:9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The truth is proven by how it is true Christian believers of every nation and language, Rev. 7:9, who gather in the holy Land soon after the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. Hab. 3:12 They will be assigned to an appropriate Israelite tribe, according to each family’s characteristics. Then the 144,000 will be selected, 12,000 from each tribe, to go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Rev 14:1-7, Isa 66:19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]This new nation in the Middle East, will be called Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 They will live in peace and prosperity and when a large army comes down from the North, God will destroy them. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Sometime later, the President of the One World Government will come to Beulah and convince ‘many’ of them to sign a seven year treaty of peace. Daniel 11:27, Isaiah 28:14-15 This marks the commencement of the final seven years of this age and is the 70th year of Daniel 9:24, then at the mid-point, the O.W.G. dictator will invade and conquer Beulah. Zech. 14:1-2, Daniel 11:30-32, which triggers the Great Tribulation of the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments. Rev. 12:7-13 But those Israelites who ‘faithful to their God’, will be taken to a place of safety, as described in Revelation 12:14. Then at the Return of Jesus, those faithful ones, the righteous ‘woman’ of Israel will experience a ‘rapture’ as they are gathered by the Lord’s angels ‘from the four winds’. Matthew 24:31 They will join the resurrected saints and will enjoy the great blessings of the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17-25[/SIZE]
God says what He means and the Word says: Not all the offspring of Israel are truly Israel....Romans 9:6 This proves there is a mixture of peoples in the Church. Not all...infers that most will be descendants of Jacob, with part from non Israelite people grafted in.
The true Church is the true Israel. I see you made a poor attempt to refute n2thelights post #9, where he proves that fact. I have used that list, [acknowledgement; EW Bullinger] to write a article, using 78 scriptures in the affirmative. Find more that that to refute it!
[SIZE=medium]The true Christian Ekklesia is Israel.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: the true Christian Church are designated by God to be Israelites. The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, only one Church, only one elect, whether they be Jew or Gentile by birth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians, chosen of God: Rom. 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isa.1:2-4, Isa 63:8, Hosea 11:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Rom. 8:14-16, Gal. 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalm 78:52, Isa. 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Eze 34:12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Heb. 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chron. 29:14-18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Heb. 10:20-21, I Tim. 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deut. 27:9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the priests of God: Isa. 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jer. 2:2, Eze. 16:32, Hosea 1:2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Cor. 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chron. 20:7, Psalm 105:5-6, Isa. 41:8[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Rom. 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deut. 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalm 105:7-10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] The New[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]Covenant is with Christians: 1 Cor. 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Eze. 34:25[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation. The Jewish remnant eventually accept Jesus as Messiah. Zech 13:9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The truth is proven by how it is true Christian believers of every nation and language, Rev. 7:9, who gather in the holy Land soon after the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. Hab. 3:12 They will be assigned to an appropriate Israelite tribe, according to each family’s characteristics. Then the 144,000 will be selected, 12,000 from each tribe, to go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Rev 14:1-7, Isa 66:19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]This new nation in the Middle East, will be called Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 They will live in peace and prosperity and when a large army comes down from the North, God will destroy them. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Sometime later, the President of the One World Government will come to Beulah and convince ‘many’ of them to sign a seven year treaty of peace. Daniel 11:27, Isaiah 28:14-15 This marks the commencement of the final seven years of this age and is the 70th year of Daniel 9:24, then at the mid-point, the O.W.G. dictator will invade and conquer Beulah. Zech. 14:1-2, Daniel 11:30-32, which triggers the Great Tribulation of the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments. Rev. 12:7-13 But those Israelites who ‘faithful to their God’, will be taken to a place of safety, as described in Revelation 12:14. Then at the Return of Jesus, those faithful ones, the righteous ‘woman’ of Israel will experience a ‘rapture’ as they are gathered by the Lord’s angels ‘from the four winds’. Matthew 24:31 They will join the resurrected saints and will enjoy the great blessings of the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17-25[/SIZE]
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
You are a very funny person. You "know" what I can see! (And I thought only God could do that!)keras said:
So what you presented, I use for the Millennial with the ingathering of the Remnant Jews and the Meek.
And I have a holistic formulation based on the Sequence of Events in the Bible for what happens in the end times, and I presented it here: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20255-pre-wrath-sequence-of-events/#entry229547
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, guys.
It's not possible to disagree with the "harpazo." It's simply the Greek word that is used in several Scripture verses, particularly in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that is used by those who believe in the pretribulational rapture theory. We MUST agree with a "harpazo," although the interpretation of those Scripture verses, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17, are susceptible to one's preconceptions. BUT, what does "harpazo" mean?
The FIRST thing with which one SHOULD disagree is that the word should be translated as "caught UP!" The direction of "up" is NOWHERE in the verse or in any of the other verses that use the word! Technically, the word simply means "snatched away!" This is another case of the translators "helping out" the translation by supplying a word that is NOT THERE! By this simple addition to the Word of God, the word implies the direction of "up," and suddenly one is being led to think SPATIALLY! I'm not talking about motive, btw. It could be intentional; however, that implies deception. "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." More than likely, it is an honest mistake. We human beings are good at that, and translators are, after all, human beings.
Here's the Greek Dictionary definition from Strong's Concordance:
On a separate note, keras is correct on several levels. First, there is NO "heaven" as a place separate from the atmosphere and space. Therefore, it is not possible for one to "go to heaven." As I've said before, "heaven" simply means the "sky." That is, in particular, the Greek word "ouranos," commonly translated as "heaven," refers to the earth's atmosphere! It's where the clouds are; it's where the birds fly; it's where the weather occurs. The Hebrew equivalent is "shaamaayim." For the place where the sun, moon, stars, and planets exist (space), the Greek word that refers to that area is "epouranios." The Hebrew uses the phrase "shaameey hashaamaayim," translated as "the heaven of heavens."
"Heaven is God's throne" because God is SPIRIT (Hebrew: Ruach meaning "wind!") He is called the "Holy Spirit"; that is, the "Ruach haQodesh." Like the wind, "no man hath seen God at any time!" We can see and feel the EFFECTS of God, like we see and feel the EFFECTS of the wind, but we can see neither God nor the wind. The Greek equivalent is "pneuma" from which we get the term "pneumatic," as in a "pneumatic pump" which harnesses air pressure to lift objects.
Here's a dictionary definition:
I always get tickled when I hear the old song, "But just think of stepping on shore, and finding it...
H
e
a
v
e
n
n
n
n
!
!
!
!" (Like stepping on a cloud out of a flying airplane!)
The song goes on "of touching a hand and finding it God's" (<Whoosh!> Oops, missed! Try again!)
"...of breathing new air and finding it celestial..." (epouranios sometimes translated "celestial" = "of outer space!" Good luck trying to breathe that "air"... or the lack thereof!)
"...of waking up in Glory..." (brightness like that of the sun) "...and finding it home!"
Now, it's best not to reduce things to x "IS" y formats. You can seldom reduce things down to a simple "=" format. It's better to use the "SUBSET" format. For instance, the "church" is a SUBSET of "Isra'el." IF you can also say that "Isra'el" is a SUBSET of the "church," THEN you can say that the "church" IS (EQUIVALENT TO) "Isra'el," and NOT BEFORE!
Frankly, I believe that one can prove from Scripture that the "church" (technically, "churchES") are a subset of "Isra'el," but NOT the reverse.
It's not possible to disagree with the "harpazo." It's simply the Greek word that is used in several Scripture verses, particularly in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that is used by those who believe in the pretribulational rapture theory. We MUST agree with a "harpazo," although the interpretation of those Scripture verses, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17, are susceptible to one's preconceptions. BUT, what does "harpazo" mean?
The FIRST thing with which one SHOULD disagree is that the word should be translated as "caught UP!" The direction of "up" is NOWHERE in the verse or in any of the other verses that use the word! Technically, the word simply means "snatched away!" This is another case of the translators "helping out" the translation by supplying a word that is NOT THERE! By this simple addition to the Word of God, the word implies the direction of "up," and suddenly one is being led to think SPATIALLY! I'm not talking about motive, btw. It could be intentional; however, that implies deception. "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." More than likely, it is an honest mistake. We human beings are good at that, and translators are, after all, human beings.
Here's the Greek Dictionary definition from Strong's Concordance:
Of course, "caught" is the past tense of "catch." So, perhaps this dictionary definition was also influenced by the translators of the King James Authorized Version, whose translation also influenced many of the subsequent translations, whether consciously or subconsciously.
On a separate note, keras is correct on several levels. First, there is NO "heaven" as a place separate from the atmosphere and space. Therefore, it is not possible for one to "go to heaven." As I've said before, "heaven" simply means the "sky." That is, in particular, the Greek word "ouranos," commonly translated as "heaven," refers to the earth's atmosphere! It's where the clouds are; it's where the birds fly; it's where the weather occurs. The Hebrew equivalent is "shaamaayim." For the place where the sun, moon, stars, and planets exist (space), the Greek word that refers to that area is "epouranios." The Hebrew uses the phrase "shaameey hashaamaayim," translated as "the heaven of heavens."
"Heaven is God's throne" because God is SPIRIT (Hebrew: Ruach meaning "wind!") He is called the "Holy Spirit"; that is, the "Ruach haQodesh." Like the wind, "no man hath seen God at any time!" We can see and feel the EFFECTS of God, like we see and feel the EFFECTS of the wind, but we can see neither God nor the wind. The Greek equivalent is "pneuma" from which we get the term "pneumatic," as in a "pneumatic pump" which harnesses air pressure to lift objects.
Here's a dictionary definition:
"Wind" is simply "air moving from an area of higher pressure to an area of lower pressure." So, God, who is Spirit like the "wind," can sit upon His "throne" of the atmosphere, but we cannot because we need our physical bodies to exist!
I always get tickled when I hear the old song, "But just think of stepping on shore, and finding it...
H
e
a
v
e
n
n
n
n
!
!
!
!" (Like stepping on a cloud out of a flying airplane!)
The song goes on "of touching a hand and finding it God's" (<Whoosh!> Oops, missed! Try again!)
"...of breathing new air and finding it celestial..." (epouranios sometimes translated "celestial" = "of outer space!" Good luck trying to breathe that "air"... or the lack thereof!)
"...of waking up in Glory..." (brightness like that of the sun) "...and finding it home!"
Now, it's best not to reduce things to x "IS" y formats. You can seldom reduce things down to a simple "=" format. It's better to use the "SUBSET" format. For instance, the "church" is a SUBSET of "Isra'el." IF you can also say that "Isra'el" is a SUBSET of the "church," THEN you can say that the "church" IS (EQUIVALENT TO) "Isra'el," and NOT BEFORE!
Frankly, I believe that one can prove from Scripture that the "church" (technically, "churchES") are a subset of "Isra'el," but NOT the reverse.
Hi Retro, Your words, "Heaven is God's throne" because God is SPIRIT (Hebrew: Ruach meaning "wind!") He is called the "Holy Spirit"; that is, the "Ruach haQodesh." Like the wind, "no man hath seen God at any time!" We can see and feel the EFFECTS of God, like we see and feel the EFFECTS of the wind, but we can see neither God nor the wind."
John 14:9 - "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
I think your understanding of the nature of the Godhead isn't correct. I mean, get real here, God is as real as you and I. He's not the air, he's not the breeze, he's not a mass of floating energy. He has a body, a form, we are created in their image, two legs, two arms, two hands, two feet, a body and a head. Being created in His image certainly doesn't mean that when he breathed life into Adam, the breath was His image!!!!
Moses did see God, at least a part of Him anyway. Ex. 33:22-23 - "And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." God has body parts!!!
When it says in verses like John 4:24 - "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." They're not saying that God is air, it is speaking of His divine nature. God sits on a throne, wears clothing and if it's allowed, when we get to heaven we'll be able to touch Him, maybe even hug him or at least shake his hand. Your description may be accurate for the Holy Spirit but they are three distinct individuals and when we get to heaven we will truly understand the triune unity of the Godhead. God doesn't have a split personality.
John 14:9 - "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
I think your understanding of the nature of the Godhead isn't correct. I mean, get real here, God is as real as you and I. He's not the air, he's not the breeze, he's not a mass of floating energy. He has a body, a form, we are created in their image, two legs, two arms, two hands, two feet, a body and a head. Being created in His image certainly doesn't mean that when he breathed life into Adam, the breath was His image!!!!
Moses did see God, at least a part of Him anyway. Ex. 33:22-23 - "And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." God has body parts!!!
When it says in verses like John 4:24 - "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." They're not saying that God is air, it is speaking of His divine nature. God sits on a throne, wears clothing and if it's allowed, when we get to heaven we'll be able to touch Him, maybe even hug him or at least shake his hand. Your description may be accurate for the Holy Spirit but they are three distinct individuals and when we get to heaven we will truly understand the triune unity of the Godhead. God doesn't have a split personality.
Similar threads
