Catholics: What does it mean to pray to Mary?

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Spiritual Israelite

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@Grailhunter If you don't differentiate between the deity of Jesus and the humanity of Jesus, it just leads to confusion. You think verses that only speak of His humanity prove He is not God, but they do not because they are only referring to His humanity in those verses and not His deity.
 
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Grailhunter

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The biblical testament of the authority of the Father has always been a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church’s doctrine of the Trinity, because hands down, the Old Testament and Christ Himself testified clearly and definitively, of the authority of the Father, over a hundred times, dozens of these coming from Christ Himself. In the Old Testament Yahweh makes it clear that He is singular God. He never functions as a trio, and specially indicates that He is the only one and no one like Him. There are zero suggestions of a Godhead in the Old Testament. Yahweh never suggested that there is a Godhead. There are zero suggestions that Yahweh recognized any other entity but Himself. There are zero suggestions that He recognized any name as a Deity other than Himself. No accounts in Old Testament of Yahweh conversing with Yeshua, no discussion defined between the two. There is One God in the religion of the Jews. You shall have no other Gods before me. There is zero evidence of God having a Son in the Old Testament. If a Jew started praying to another named God they would have been stoned. But things change in the New Testament.

The facts and the bottom line is, Yeshua is the Son of the Almighty God. Yeshua called Yahweh His Father and Yeshua calling Yahweh His God appears three times in the Gospels. Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34, John 20:17
Yahweh---God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and mankind. Father and God to Yeshua.
Yeshua---A full-fledged God, The Son of God Almighty, Messiah and Savior
The unnamed God referred to as the Holy Spirit, a full-fledged God. Helper, guide, nurture, teacher, wisdom. Because the Holy Spirit was not named and given the designation of Spirit, people think the Holy Spirit is different in substance than Yahweh and Yeshua....but no scripture suggests that.

So that is it, truth for you. While those that believe in the one God formula cling to a couple scriptures, I have provided hundreds that the Trinity is made up of three Gods, unique and distinct and united in purpose. The worst way to understand the New Testament is to take a couple unexplained incongruent scriptures and make a religious belief out of it when they do not agree with the whole New Testament.

On the other hand, these biblical proofs of the authority of God the Father in no way conflict with beliefs regarding the Trinity. In the Old Testament it is easy to see that Yahweh proclaims Himself as the ultimate authority and does not define Himself as a trio. In the New Testament after Yahweh begets a Son, His Son repeatedly attests to the authority of the Father. A numerical count of the three Gods occur as the Gospels progress, but descriptions or discussions regarding the trio of Gods does not occur until after Christ ascends to Heaven, and rightly so, the trio did not form until He ascended to Heaven. At which time, God the Father still holds the positional authority as God Almighty. In relation to each other the Bible assigns them positional seniority as we would understand the relationship of Father and Son....more or less the chain of command...But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and head of woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1st Corinthians 11:3

Then from our perspective they have equal authority over us. Then in relation to the salvation of humanity, Christ has all authority. To put this in simple terms it would be like delegating authority to complete a task, but Yahweh is still chairman of the board in Heaven. The Truth makes sense. The Shield of the Trinity is still compatible as a representation of the Godhead, in that God in center represents that spiritual unity, while there is a God called Yahweh, a God called Yeshua, and a God called the Holy Spirit. And at the same time the representation makes it clear the Yahweh is not Yeshua and neither are the Holy Spirit. Three individual Gods that are in accord. But still I see people scratching their heads over it…

I challenge anybody to produce an article near this size with even a tenth of the number of New Testament scriptural references to support their belief that the Trinity is one God, one person.

On the other hand when you have had the one God formula for the Trinity pounded in your head…..how much is it your fault? I do not think it is a qualification for salvation, it just drastically prevent what went on in the New Testament.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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This forum is not a place to just copy and paste the contents of books in. Good grief. Just post a link to a site where people can read your book if they want. No one is going to read it here.
 
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shepherdsword

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25. In John 5:7 Christ says, “And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. You have neither heard His voice at anytime, nor seen His form.” In this verse one should understand that it takes someone else to bare witness of another, and the voice and form they were hearing and seeing then, was not that of God the Father. He was not baring witness of Himself.

26. In Matthew 18:10, where Christ was warning not to offend the “little ones”....Christ indicates that their Angels constantly behold the face of Yahweh...in Heaven. Now surely, there is an understanding of the concept of omni-presence, but if you notice, Christ is not saying, they behold My face, or Our faces everywhere. Throughout the storyline of the Gospel, Christ makes it clear that He and His Father are in two different places. Christ’s overall mission on Earth is to fulfill the will of God which is Yahweh....and He makes it clear that Yahweh, His Father sent Him. Yeshua never said in the Gospels that He sent Himself or came on His own behalf, or was doing His own will, or begot Himself. Over 40 times Christ says in the Gospels that His Father sent Him. This denotes the higher authority of the Father and that His Father is another person at a different place.

In several verses Christ indicates that God the Father gives or appoints certain things to Him. To appoint or give is an indication of hierarchy, authority, and an indication of two positions, given and received. You will not find a scripture where Christ says He sent the Father somewhere, or that the Father was doing His will, or He gave authority to the Father, it is not His position to do any of that. Other examples, Christ would not say, I gave Myself, all things, nor would He say that He loved Himself.

27. In John 10:17, Christ says, “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.” The same is true of honor or glory.

28. Honor is a heartfelt expression from one person to another. Christ does not honor Himself or love Himself. John 8:54, “If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me; of whom ye say, that He is your God. All three of these expressions describe something happening from one...to... another.

29. Apostolic Perspective. There is a continual reference to Father and Son and a designation of Yahweh as God the Father in Heaven while Christ was on earth. And if you look closely the scriptures give distinctions to God as the Father and Christ as Lord in the same sentence. As in the benediction of some of books in the NT...2nd Corinthians, Ephesians, and Philippians.

30. 1st Timothy 6:13
“I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate.”

Matthew 5:16
Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 6:1
Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 10:32
Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:10
See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 23:9
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Luke 2:49
And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?” (Note again: His Father’s house, not His house, not Our house.)

continued.....
Do you really expect anyone to read your spam flood posts? TL;DR
 

shepherdsword

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Like I said not that simple.
By the time the New Testament gets through with God the Father He is janitor with a broom in Heaven.
Yahweh is the Creator God.
Answer the question and stop deflecting.....do you believe all things were created by Jesus as the scriptures teach?
 

PS95

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I gave you just a few scriptures that showed in the storyline that God the Father and God the Son were working together during Christ’s ministry. Separate in many ways and I am teaching you along the way.
So what? lol YHWH spoke to Yeshua and visa versa OF COURSE! Something is twisting you up that you aren't quite expressing to me. this is not a problem at all .

I read it but it does not say anything about Yeshua
what? GH, who is the WORD? The word "who became flesh" as John wrote..?
 

Behold

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The only queen of heaven mentioned in the bible was the idolatrous god of babylonian origins. Please cite a reference where Jesus said Mary is our spiritual mother?

Im not a "cult of Mary" member.

So, my post that you read, is not me supporting this cult.
But rather, i posted info from Catholic.org......so that there is no way for a "cult of mary " member to deny it, and be honest.


Maybe because the bible doesn't tell us to have Mary and the saints pray for us.

Exactly.

In Fact, the NT has nothing to say, that supports "the cult of Mary's" theology - doctrine- nonsense, regarding how they bend the knee to "the mother of Jesus".

So, what Catholics are taught about Mary being so very important, is literally man made nonsense... Religious fiction.


The bible doesn't say those holy men and women bring our prayers to Jesus.

Correct.

Mary is not and intercessor.

Mary was a sinner, in need of Salvation just like any other Human being.

The NT says that Mary is "blessed among women" but it does not state that she is blessed above them, as the "cult of Mary" would have you believe.
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Mary.jpg
 
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PS95

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Im not a "cult of Mary" member.

So, my post that you read, is not me supporting this cult.
But rather, i posted info from Catholic.org......so that there is no way for a "cult of mary " member to deny it, and be honest.




Exactly.

In Fact, the NT has nothing to say, that supports "the cult of Mary's" theology - doctrine- nonsense, regarding how they bend the knee to "the mother of Jesus".

So, what Catholics are taught about Mary being so very important, is literally man made nonsense... Religious fiction.




Correct.



Mary was a sinner, in need of Salvation just like any other Human being.

The NT says that Mary is "blessed among women" but it does not state that she is blessed above them, as the "cult of Mary" would have you believe.
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View attachment 62125
where the heck is that pic taken? creepy. Mary would not approve at all. That is awful!
 
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PGS11

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My mother is the most beautiful human being I have ever met and I will never stop loving her and no one here will see hear the way I do.See Mary and your own mother. Would you let your mother be seen the way you see Mary. No neither will I and you claim you know Jesus and he can do all for YOU and that's how you see the mother the mother that brought Jesus into the world.If you said that about my mother I would be angry.Do you want Jesus to be angry well that's what you are doing when you speak of her that way.These post need to stop you are insulting Jesus.

Does anyone not agree with my post?

I do need to clear up what I have posted here my mind was not right - it is now completely filled with LOVE .I am so sorry to many.

This is the truth the Catholic Church is the mother Church and that's the way you see her really as lies - I don't know why .I look at her as my mother and you don't.
I'm getting angry now and have to leave.I have to love to fix me there is no other way I love you all and will love you to death all night I really will.
 
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Grailhunter

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Do you really expect anyone to read your spam flood posts? TL;DR
Only those that want to learn. No harm, no fowl.
Answer the question and stop deflecting.....do you believe all things were created by Jesus as the scriptures teach?
Not directly. LIke I said Yahweh is the Creator God. Yeshua not openly present in Old Testament.
Answer the question and stop deflecting.....do you believe all things were created by Jesus as the scriptures teach?
I will give you a short explanation, you are not going to want the long one….long and over your head….because it involves Albert Einstein’s theory of the time continuum.

A God’s interaction with time is different than our…..tick tick.
God the Father exists in time past, present, and future.
When Yeshua was born, as a God, He existed in time past, present, and future…..but not in the past in such a way that He was active in the physical world….He did not create the world or Adam and Eve or the flood etc.
 

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PS95

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My mother is the most beautiful human being I have ever met and I will never stop loving her and no one here will see hear the way I do.See Mary and your own mother. Would you let your mother be seen the way you see Mary. No neither will I and you claim you know Jesus and he can do all for YOU and that's how you see the mother the mother that brought Jesus into the world.If you said that about my mother I would be angry.Do you want Jesus to be angry well that's what you are doing when you speak of her that way.These post need to stop you are insulting Jesus.

Does anyone not agree with my post?

I do need to clear up what I have posted here my mind was not right - it is now.I am so sorry to many.

This is the truth the Catholic Church is the mother Church and that's the way you see her really as lies - I don't know why .I look at her as my mother and you don't.
I'm getting angry now and have to leave.I have to love to fix me there is no other way I love you all and will love you to death all night I really will.
Dear PGS11,
You can love Mary. I do too. I would never insult her? Who did that? I will talk to them.

BUT that statue is not OK. The scriptures are clear - we are to worship God and only God. That picture looks like how it was in the apostle's time with pagan statues of goddesses. That is an IDOL.
Mary would not want that statue either. Mary loves God and she was obedient to God.
Please pay attention to me. John also warned us about idols. He lived with Mary. He would not approve of that either.

Why is Mary your mother and not ours? I understand why you see her as your mother. She is the mother of our brother, Jesus our Lord and Savior. But Jesus always existed. God used her body as a vessel to bring Jesus into the world.

Mary was not married to God. Mary married Joseph. So why would I call her my mother? Mary did not give birth to me or you. She is not married to our heavenly Father. Shouldn't our mother and father be married? Well, they aren't. God gave her a great honor to be the mother of Jesus. I respect Mary and call her blessed.
We can all love Mary! You can tell God that you love her. You can tell Him thank you for her.
Jesus is our ONLY mediator. We do not have another. We need to obey God.
You don't want anyone to take away your first love which is Jesus. Focus on HIM!!!
All the RCC talks about is Mary. That is not good. Be careful of idols.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Dear PGS11,
You can love Mary. I do too. I would never insult her? Who did that? I will talk to them.

BUT that statue is not OK. The scriptures are clear - we are to worship God and only God. That picture looks like how it was in the apostle's time with pagan statues of goddesses. That is an IDOL.
Mary would not want that statue either. Mary loves God and she was obedient to God.
Please pay attention to me. John also warned us about idols. He lived with Mary. He would not approve of that either.

Why is Mary your mother and not ours? I understand why you see her as your mother. She is the mother of our brother, Jesus our Lord and Savior. But Jesus always existed. God used her body as a vessel to bring Jesus into the world.

Mary was not married to God. Mary married Joseph. So why would I call her my mother? Mary did not give birth to me or you. She is not married to our heavenly Father. Shouldn't our mother and father be married? Well, they aren't. God gave her a great honor to be the mother of Jesus. I respect Mary and call her blessed.
We can all love Mary! You can tell God that you love her. You can tell Him thank you for her.
Jesus is our ONLY mediator. We do not have another. We need to obey God.
You don't want anyone to take away your first love which is Jesus. Focus on HIM!!!
All the RCC talks about is Mary. That is not good. Be careful of idols.
Dear PGS11,
You can love Mary. I do too. I would never insult her? Who did that? I will talk to them.

BUT that statue is not OK. The scriptures are clear - we are to worship God and only God. That picture looks like how it was in the apostle's time with pagan statues of goddesses. That is an IDOL.
Mary would not want that statue either. Mary loves God and she was obedient to God.
Please pay attention to me. John also warned us about idols. He lived with Mary. He would not approve of that either.

Why is Mary your mother and not ours? I understand why you see her as your mother. She is the mother of our brother, Jesus our Lord and Savior. But Jesus always existed. God used her body as a vessel to bring Jesus into the world.

Mary was not married to God. Mary married Joseph. So why would I call her my mother? Mary did not give birth to me or you. She is not married to our heavenly Father. Shouldn't our mother and father be married? Well, they aren't. God gave her a great honor to be the mother of Jesus. I respect Mary and call her blessed.
We can all love Mary! You can tell God that you love her. You can tell Him thank you for her.
Jesus is our ONLY mediator. We do not have another. We need to obey God.
You don't want anyone to take away your first love which is Jesus. Focus on HIM!!!
All the RCC talks about is Mary. That is not good. Be careful of idols.
Jesus Himself did not put Mary on a pedestal like Catholics do. Not at all. I wonder if they have never read this:

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
 
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PS95

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Jesus Himself did not put Mary on a pedestal like Catholics do. Not at all. I wonder if they have never read this:

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
It doesn't appear that they read the bible much. According to Jesus, he has many mothers.
 
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PS95

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The biblical testament of the authority of the Father has always been a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church’s doctrine of the Trinity, because hands down, the Old Testament and Christ Himself testified clearly and definitively, of the authority of the Father, over a hundred times, dozens of these coming from Christ Himself. In the Old Testament Yahweh makes it clear that He is singular God. He never functions as a trio, and specially indicates that He is the only one and no one like Him. There are zero suggestions of a Godhead in the Old Testament. Yahweh never suggested that there is a Godhead. There are zero suggestions that Yahweh recognized any other entity but Himself. There are zero suggestions that He recognized any name as a Deity other than Himself. No accounts in Old Testament of Yahweh conversing with Yeshua, no discussion defined between the two. There is One God in the religion of the Jews. You shall have no other Gods before me. There is zero evidence of God having a Son in the Old Testament. If a Jew started praying to another named God they would have been stoned. But things change in the New Testament.

The facts and the bottom line is, Yeshua is the Son of the Almighty God. Yeshua called Yahweh His Father and Yeshua calling Yahweh His God appears three times in the Gospels. Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34, John 20:17
Yahweh---God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and mankind. Father and God to Yeshua.
Yeshua---A full-fledged God, The Son of God Almighty, Messiah and Savior
The unnamed God referred to as the Holy Spirit, a full-fledged God. Helper, guide, nurture, teacher, wisdom. Because the Holy Spirit was not named and given the designation of Spirit, people think the Holy Spirit is different in substance than Yahweh and Yeshua....but no scripture suggests that.

So that is it, truth for you. While those that believe in the one God formula cling to a couple scriptures, I have provided hundreds that the Trinity is made up of three Gods, unique and distinct and united in purpose. The worst way to understand the New Testament is to take a couple unexplained incongruent scriptures and make a religious belief out of it when they do not agree with the whole New Testament.

On the other hand, these biblical proofs of the authority of God the Father in no way conflict with beliefs regarding the Trinity. In the Old Testament it is easy to see that Yahweh proclaims Himself as the ultimate authority and does not define Himself as a trio. In the New Testament after Yahweh begets a Son, His Son repeatedly attests to the authority of the Father. A numerical count of the three Gods occur as the Gospels progress, but descriptions or discussions regarding the trio of Gods does not occur until after Christ ascends to Heaven, and rightly so, the trio did not form until He ascended to Heaven. At which time, God the Father still holds the positional authority as God Almighty. In relation to each other the Bible assigns them positional seniority as we would understand the relationship of Father and Son....more or less the chain of command...But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and head of woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1st Corinthians 11:3

Then from our perspective they have equal authority over us. Then in relation to the salvation of humanity, Christ has all authority. To put this in simple terms it would be like delegating authority to complete a task, but Yahweh is still chairman of the board in Heaven. The Truth makes sense. The Shield of the Trinity is still compatible as a representation of the Godhead, in that God in center represents that spiritual unity, while there is a God called Yahweh, a God called Yeshua, and a God called the Holy Spirit. And at the same time the representation makes it clear the Yahweh is not Yeshua and neither are the Holy Spirit. Three individual Gods that are in accord. But still I see people scratching their heads over it…

I challenge anybody to produce an article near this size with even a tenth of the number of New Testament scriptural references to support their belief that the Trinity is one God, one person.

On the other hand when you have had the one God formula for the Trinity pounded in your head…..how much is it your fault? I do not think it is a qualification for salvation, it just drastically prevent what went on in the New Testament.
According to this you have concluded that there are 3 Gods. Correct? that's what it says. "3 full-flegded Gods."
You give sole credit to the first God for creation
You utterly IGNORED the scriptures about the Word of God and creation. You appear to be solely focused on the OT for that conclusion.
And now the Holy Spirit is your God # 3.
I imagine you will also have to ignore this too then..
2 Cor 3:17-18 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18But we all, with unveiled faces, looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

and this Romans 8:9

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
 
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Grailhunter

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IGNORED the scriptures about the Word of God and creation. You appear to be solely focused on the OT for that conclusion.

Nope and nope. I do not ignore or discount the Logos or focus on the Old Testament. I keep saying it is just not that simple. The Old Testament has the character of God the Father and the New Testament has the character of God the Son. It is all explained in the posts....nothing to add.
 

Grailhunter

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2 Cor 3:17-18 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18But we all, with unveiled faces, looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

and this Romans 8:9

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Good verses.....
 

Berean

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What is your point? He's not the God who created all things. But, Jesus is.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
The actual rendition of John 1:1 is "In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.

What beginning are we speaking of? The word "the" was added, it's not in the original Greek. "You" would condemn groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses for inserting "a" in "a god", but don't see a problem with inserting "the". The word "the" does appear "ho" when it mentions "ho Logos" and even with "ho Theos". And before you ask, yes, it makes a ton of difference. If Jesus always existed, then there can be no "In THE beginning". It would have to be "a beginning".
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The actual rendition of John 1:1 is "In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.

What beginning are we speaking of? The word "the" was added, it's not in the original Greek. "You" would condemn groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses for inserting "a" in "a god", but don't see a problem with inserting "the". The word "the" does appear "ho" when it mentions "ho Logos" and even with "ho Theos". And before you ask, yes, it makes a ton of difference. If Jesus always existed, then there can be no "In THE beginning". It would have to be "a beginning".
Did you stop reading there in verse 1? Do you not make any effort to see the context of scripture?

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

The Word who was made flesh who John the Baptist witnessed about was Jesus Christ. Jesus is both God and man.
 
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