Abiding in the vine

rockytopva said:

Cutting the vine and seeing how quickly it dies keeps me in mind of the importance of remaining in Christ.

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But but the people that teach eternal security say people that do not abide in Christ are still saved too.

Which is why so many that says they are Christians live in sin just like the world.

How you you address those that claim we can never lose our salvation even if we don't abide in Christ???

rockytopva said:

Here is a photo of the severed ivy vine, in which was only like a half inch thick.

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Got one that is closer to the actual cut in the vine?

The photo posted is like 50 yards away.

I was raised in the Southern Baptist tradition. Eternal security is one of their core beliefs. After meeting Christ myself, I began to rethink this idea of eternal security, until I know longer believed it. Not long after that, a series of events transpired that led me to leave my church, and I began to slowly slip back into the world. I'm not implying that the one thing led to the other, but it is curious.

About ten years later at a very low point in my life, I turned back to my Father in prayer. I cried out to Him earnestly, after a long time and totally exhausted, the Lord spoke to my heart "My grace is sufficient for thee."

Nothing in my life changed. While I never abandoned my faith, the same could not be said for my obedience. I struggled most of the next 20 years with various trials and temptations, never having any real victory in my life.

A few years ago, I began again to seek the face of God in sincerity, with heartfelt repentance. My relationship with God is probably deeper now than it has ever been at any point in my life. But if you had met me only three or four years ago, you would not have seen Christ in me or recognized me as any kind of believer. And you would have been terribly mistaken.

I'm not a Calvinist. I'm just a sinner saved by grace. Christ is the Author of our faith, He is also the Finisher. Be very careful about how and who you judge in this life.

I believe in the perseverance of the Saints. And I believe Christ, when He said that none that had been given to Him by the Father would be plucked from His hand. The word of God is clear. All who come to Him, He will in no way cast out. The word does not say, all who come in perfect faith or obedience, just all who come.

Manasseh said:

While I never abandoned my faith, the same could not be said for my obedience

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Those walking in disobedience disqualify themselves from salvation because they have willingly and knowingly turned away from the Lord and have rejected Him.

The problem with so called eternal security teaching is that they claim one can live in opposition to the Lord having willingly and knowingly turned away from the Lord rejecting Him and the eternal security teachers falsely claim they are still saved.

Romans 11:21,22 - For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Manasseh said:

if you had met me only three or four years ago, you would not have seen Christ in me or recognized me as any kind of believer. And you would have been terribly mistaken.

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That's because you were not a believer anymore and if you had died in that condition you would have gone to hell.

When I was a young believer the same thing happened to me where I went back to drugs, sex, and rock-n-roll and after I returned to the Lord I asked Him to teach me what went wrong and how could I have ever backslid back in to the world.

Over a period of a few years to studying God's Word the Lord taught me that eternal security if false doctrine and He showed me scripture that tells us it's false doctrine. And sadly so many ignore these warnings in God's Word because they just refuse to accept all the Lord has to say on this topic.

Manasseh said:

Be very careful about how and who you judge in this life

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If you don't mind, or even if you do, I will keep the Lord and His Word first place in my life and reject the wisdom of men that is being taught as though it were the wisdom of God which is what the majority of churches and preachers are doing these days - teaching the darkened wisdom of man

Manasseh said:

I believe in the perseverance of the Saints

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Yeah, those that persevere abiding In Christ until the end of their lives will be saved.

Those that don't won't.

The calvinists are the ones that started the false doctrine of eternal security and claim those living in sin will still be saved as though the reward the Lord gives to those that turn away from Him and reject Him is spending eternity in Heaven.

That's doctrine of demons because the devil is doing his best to trick people in to believing the opposite of what the Lord tells us in Gal 6:7,8 which is if we sow to the flesh we shall not of the flesh reap corruption which is mocking God according to Gal 6 :7,8

Manasseh said:

All who come to Him, He will in no way cast out

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Jesus had some other things to say on this topic - Will you accept ALL that He says, or just the happy parts???

John 15:1,2 - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:5 - IF A MAN ABIDE NOT IN ME, he is cut off as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!

John 15:4,5 - Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!

John 15:8-10 - Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

HOW are we to abide in Christ, thru our own strength and ability???
NO... thru the Lord Who strengthens us!

Philippians 4:13 - I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Manasseh said:

The word of God is clear. All who come to Him, He will in no way cast out. The word does not say, all who come in perfect faith or obedience, just all who come.

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So I can go back to partying, getting drunk, doing drugs, fornicating like I did back in the day in direct disobedience and opposition to the to the Lord and still be saved?

Is this the message you are trying to bring forth?
Hebrews 10:28-31 - He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Unless a person turns away from their sin in repentance, there is no mercy for them according to God's Word.

Proverbs 28:13 - He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

It's a sad thing indeed when folks get to thinking they have the power to undo the saving work of God upon them. For all one's faith, repentance and submission to Christ as Lord and Savior, in the end the only thing that saves anyone is their Savior. God only accepts any of us because of His Son. If we aren't clothed in him and his perfect righteousness (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27; 2 Co. 5:21), God does not accept us. Our works don't save us (Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Ti. 1:9; Tit. 3:5), our faith doesn't save us (Acts 4:12; Jn. 1:1-4; 14:6), only Christ, the Savior saves us. And because he is God, he is always accepted by the Father - as are all those who are in him (Eph. 1:6). What we do, or don't do, then, has no effect upon our acceptance by God. We are accepted only because of Christ, not because we were good enough, or faithful enough, or sincere enough. And so, we have Hebrews 13:5, John 10:27-29 and Roman 8:38-39 given to us in God's word.

In light of all this, I read the passage from John 15 above and don't see a threat of salvation-lost but a description of two kinds of people: the Saved and the Lost. The saved are those abiding in Christ and the lost are those who are not. Airo (Gk.) in verse 2, unfortunately translated "takes away" is actually more properly rendered "lifts up." Why? Because this was the viticultural practice common to the time, not the removal of the unfruitful branch. Typically, unfruitful branches were lifted up onto supporting structures and into direct sunlight, the better to produce grapes. Also, airo (αἴρω) can be as readily translated "take up," "bear up" or "lift" as "takes away" - and is in other places in Scripture (Matt. 27:32; Lu. 4:11; Mk. 2:3; Jn. 11:41, etc.).

Perhaps worse than fearing for one's salvation all the time, the saved-and-lost crowd inevitably take up a works-salvation belief that is flatly denied in God's word (see above). This is an old and blasphemous idea, denying the gift that is salvation and the uniqueness of Christ's role as Savior. Works-salvation effectively makes the "Christian" a co-Savior with Jesus, who must maintain their salvation by their own effort. But as Acts 4:12 flatly declares concerning Jesus:

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Kokyu said:

It's a sad thing indeed when folks get to thinking they have the power to undo the saving work of God upon them.

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So when Jesus said "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away" was He speaking a falsehood?
What about when Jesus said "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch"? That's not true either?

Kokyu said:

In light of all this, I read the passage from John 15 above and don't see a threat of salvation

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So when Jesus said "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away" was He speaking a falsehood?
What about when Jesus said "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch"? That's not true either?

Kokyu said:

in verse 2, unfortunately translated "takes away" is actually more properly rendered "lifts up."

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G0142 - airo

a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin: KJV -- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

This is speaking of someone who was in fact on the Vine, which is why Jesus said IN ME because they had gotten born again and had been translated from darkness in to the Kingdom of God's Dear Son (Colossians 1:13) which is what happens when someone gets born again

What about other warnings in God's Word that demonstrate one can actually lose their salvation? Did the Holy Spirit tell the biblical writers what to write, or not? (I can list some if you'd like)

Kokyu said:

the saved-and-lost crowd inevitably take up a works-salvation belief that is flatly denied in God's word (see above).

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What you posted above doesn't fly, unless one thinks Jesus doesn't know what He's talking about

And did you know know that we are called to walk after the Spirit? (Galatians 5:16-26) Submitting ourselves to the Lord being led by the Holy Spirit? (Romans 8:14) Your claim is someone submitting to the Holy Spirit is trying to work for their salvation not knowing it's the Holy Spirit that empowers us to abide in Christ???

Romans 8:13 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Notice it says THRU THE SPIRIT and in this is not something one can do on their own in their own strength.

That's written to Christians, and so it this one warning Christians that walking after the flesh is walking in condemnation

Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Notice it says no condemnation is applicable to those who who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit?? Ya see that?

Dead, dried up religion knows nothing of being empowered by Holy Spirit to walk uprightly before the Lord because they don't allow the Holy Spirit to live in them which is why the must embrace the false eternal security teaching which came out of calvinism both of which are doctrines of devils based on a handful of bible passages requiring them to ignore or explain away large portions of God's Word.

Christianity is the call to walk in agreement with the Lord allowing His Spirit to LIVE in us, empowering us to not continue in sin!

Philippians 4:13 - I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

This is submission unto the Lord verses choosing to not submit to the Lord claiming to still be saved (disobedience)

Can a Christian walk in disobedience to the Lord, in opposition to the Lord and still be saved?

The eternal security people say yes they can which is why so many get born again, here this false ear tickling message and think it's all good they can continue living in sin like before they got born again and they are still saved because that's what most churches and preachers teach these days which is known as the security in sin false gospel authored by the devil.

rockytopva said:

With the Methodist type revivals it seems like the whole country is getting saved. And then... What happened?

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Here's what happened:

The devil seeks to choke the Word out of people's hearts and Jesus tells us how he does it:

Mark 4:13-20 - And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Here we see Jesus telling us the 5 things the devil uses to choke the Word and cause it to be unfruitful... IF these things are allowed to ENTER IN which we have the responsibility to not allow... see John 14:23 where Jesus says "If a man love me, he will keep my words" as in NOT allow it to be choked out of us.

The 5 things are... affliction, persecution, cares of this world, deceitfulness of riches, and lusts of other things

Jesus said God’s Kingdom works on the seedtime and harvest principle

Mark 4:26 - And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground

Preachers don't teach what Jesus taught and so people don't know what to be on guard for making it easy for the devil to deceive them since people don't know what's going on.

rockytopva said:

I was baptized three times in my teenage years. As a teenager my main thought was that it was fun. I do not regret it either.

1. GARBC Baptist - In a Baptistry
2. Freewill Baptist - In a River
3. Pentecostal Holiness - In a River

There are issues in the foundations of salvation in all the churches I have attended. If I were to "threaten" someone's salvation...

OSAS - Raise eyebrows.... "Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"
Non OSAS - Probably wouldn't see them again

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he... - Proverbs 23:7

Believing in your heart that you are secure in your salvation is huge. But... I have no authority to look into the Lamb's Book of Life to see the outcome of everything...

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.- Revelation 5:4

If the foundations of salvation are set you won't hear of that individual backsliding back into the world. Thus the saying....

The Baptist don't believe in backsliding - Disadvantage - Like the church of Sardis... Terribly dry
The Methodist practice it - Disadvantage- Experiences wonderful revival... Can't keep it going

With the Methodist type revivals it seems like the whole country is getting saved. And then... What happened?

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Rocky, I did the same thing! Baptized 3 times, I have to say I do not regret those moments as they were wonderful experiences even if I didn't know what really I was doing. All I know, is that I was getting the Jonah in the whale experience. I was never a holiness person. I witnessed a service when I was younger. I did not like what I had seen. I was also shared with others there were snakes involved in some places as I had grown older and I was very iffy of anything like that. While I believe there are well meaningful people in those places and they are saved by faith in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't accept what they had taught. With the holy spirit, and jolting around, and faith healings and all that stuff. There were people out there getting people killed and that was not a good thing at all.

In the end like you shared, it is going to be your heart. Where will you stand as you go about this day to day life. With you trust in faith look seeking after Yahavah in your daily life, and worship him in spirit and in truth, and I believe those spirit fruits are founded somewhere in the bible where people can nourish on and cultivate from those spiritual principles, and other books of the bible which influence the betterment of a person growing from a child to an adult in the spirit.

I think some of the problems come from our own laziness to take action in the first place and do the work ourselves. Ive read books, off and on, here and there. But the biggest book to learn from was the bible, and I did take time to learn from it using a study guide and just kind of jiving off what was written as a whole, and not in just mere sections at a time. Ive read the new testament many times, and when it comes to the old I never compelted it but I do skim and look and do read it sometimes just for flavor ya know? Like a big steak.

Those old testament writings are spoken of so many times in Revelation. I use to be afraid of it. I use to image that Satan would rise out and all would see him, and you know in a way today, it kind has been show to be Israel (though I don't hate or call Israel now today Satan) though in the day which they had become destroyed in the age 70Ad, 40 years after the Generation which Jesus told was coming. Its wonderful to see how these things all come togheter.

Not to just go off of that, for me personally I just can't except a person being healed of autism, blindness, having some stomache problem miraclously removed, or the holy speaking in tongues. The Revivals themselves, were an art piece in itself don't get me wrong. God bless all of them, whom didn't do it for a profit. I just believe when one abide in Christ, the fruits of the spirit will come forth, but so many people worry about so many things they don't know what to do with themselves now today in my honest opinion.

There are so many people some of them work, some of them don't and some waste time over pointless things rather things that can actually change things for the better. There are many parts of america that struggling from crime, and death in the street and what not.

rockytopva said:

The 2023 Asbury revival... It seemed like the the whole country getting saved.... People flying in from everywhere... And then due to traffic concerns the administration killed it! They still boast about the revival.. My reply would be... Yes... the revival was good.. You realize though... That you yourselves killed it. In which, is the aggravating thing to me of the same mindset. It is hard to keep good revival going in this day and time...

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Well people need to have their own revival in their own hearts, their own home, their own city.

Just because people went there and got a couple of goose bumps doesn't mean it was going to be an ongoing revival ushering in salvation for every person on earth.

Jesus said most people will go to hell and only a few find salvation so there's that.

Its very sad to see that so many people here who claim to be washed in the blood of Jesus denying His power to keep and protect His own children. The same people who will tell you that God hates abortion (and I agree, He does), have somehow convinced themselves that God aborts His own children.

God allows us to go through trials and temptations to strengthen our faith. For some, those trials may be brief and not too severe, for others, lengthy and horrible. God knows His children and He knows how to grow them up into faith and obedience.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

"An incorruptible inheritance"

Unless of course one of our trials is a little too ugly and a little too long, and then we are dammed. If you seriously believe this, I pity you.

My Savior promised that He would never leave me or forsake me, He did not provide any caveat that I am aware of.

You serve your God, I'll serve mine. Mine is a loving Father, yours seems to be in the abortion business.

Yahweh does not abort His children. And all who have been born of the Spirit, are indeed His children despite whatever harsh judgments you may pronounce upon them.

One more thing, God is just, perfectly so. Don't think for a minute that He isn't aware of how hard the devil tries to shipwreck the faith of new believers. Or that He won't hold those accountable who have done so.
Works based salvation is of the devil, and that is exactly what is being taught here, no matter how much you may try to justify it through scripture it simply can't be done.

The shed blood of Christ is insufficient for your salvation, you feel the need to add something to it. You are in fact compelled by your own self righteousness to do so. Just come out and say it. The shed blood of Christ is insufficient. Because that is exactly what you are saying, despite anything else you may have to say.

I strongly suggest that you repent of this wickedness.

rockytopva said:

I heard of a man who took good care of himself and is now over a hundred years old. I feel good physically and take care of myself as well. The toughest thing... Said he... Was to see generations come and go. I have got to agree with him here. It is tough to see a good bunch of people go. I also wonder where I fit in this day and time. It seems like much of the worship is just a bunch of routines. I am reminded time and time where the Lord says, "This people honors me with their mouth but their heart is far from me."

In this day and time I stay busy and take one day at a time. Before Covid I was able to attend much church services where....

1. Worship - Good worship
2. Word - Good time in the word

It was also nice to hear someone speak of their unique testimony and dynamic ministry after a riotous life. It is now tough to find this on Sundays where at one time I experienced this many times a week.The Apostle Paul advised, "forsake not the assembling together of yourselves as the manner of some is."

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Rocky, what comes to my mind is what Yeshua said.

John 4: 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

While people can meet up with others, it's dependent on the individual to worship in the Spirit and in truth. I don't go to services, no do I feel bad for not going. Yahavah deals with me as he does so by the holy spirit that he gives to individuals. The last thing I am gonna do is cry because I did not show up to some sunday service.

Half the time it just songs, not even a good teaching from the Bible itself. I rather have little less to no people in a building, with someone teaching a bible, than a massive 100,000, or even 100 people, or even 50 people. Not to say that seeing a lot of people is not nice, it's just when it comes down to the brass tax if you are going to a church that offers you nothing but the bible itself, with some study material to go off of but mostly going by the spirit, that is a place I would want to be. That doesn't force you to think like them, and likes questions and to be challeneged as well, and using the bible as the use of seeking and finding out what is true within those pages by and through the Spirit and at least as close as we can get.

Dash RipRock said:

So when Jesus said "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away" was He speaking a falsehood?
What about when Jesus said "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch"? That's not true either?

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If you're not going to actually read and understand my posts before you respond to them I see no reason why I should respond to your questions. If you had read and understood my post, you would see that your questions here already have their answer. I don't think Jesus spoke any falsehood, obviously. And I don't think Jesus spoke an untruth in verse 6, either. What I do dispute is the interpretation of some that a saved-and-lost works-salvation doctrine is being taught by him in the passage in John 15. I've explained why I dispute this interpretation in my last post.

Dash RipRock said:

G0142 - airo

a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin: KJV -- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

This is speaking of someone who was in fact on the Vine, which is why Jesus said IN ME because they had gotten born again and had been translated from darkness in to the Kingdom of God's Dear Son (Colossians 1:13) which is what happens when someone gets born again

What about other warnings in God's Word that demonstrate one can actually lose their salvation? Did the Holy Spirit tell the biblical writers what to write, or not? (I can list some if you'd like)

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I'm not sure what your point is here. You seem to be acknowledging my point about airo. Are you?

I don't think there are any passages in the NT which indicate that one can lose one's salvation. There are those who try to interpret them as saying such a thing but when one understands on what basis God accepts them as His own, these interpretations just don't make sense.

Dash RipRock said:

What you posted above doesn't fly, unless one thinks Jesus doesn't know what He's talking about

And did you know know that we are called to walk after the Spirit? (Galatians 5:16-26) Submitting ourselves to the Lord being led by the Holy Spirit? (Romans 8:14) Your claim is someone submitting to the Holy Spirit is trying to work for their salvation not knowing it's the Holy Spirit that empowers us to abide in Christ???

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Do you know what it is to "walk in the Spirit"? I'd be very interested to know what you think this is, and how it's done, and what is your personal experience of doing so.

What is it to walk in submission to the Holy Spirit, exactly? What's your experience of doing so?

You've offered a Strawman of what I've posted, calling it my "claim." But I've not written anything like the claim you say I've made. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?

Dash RipRock said:

Romans 8:13 - For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Notice it says THRU THE SPIRIT and in this is not something one can do on their own in their own strength.

That's written to Christians, and so it this one warning Christians that walking after the flesh is walking in condemnation

Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Notice it says no condemnation is applicable to those who who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit?? Ya see that?

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Oh, dear. Have you read Romans 7? Particularly verses 14-24? In this section of the chapter, Paul described his battle between the flesh and the Spirit, between two opposing "laws" in his members (vs. 21-23), and decries his falling repeatedly into sin (vs. 15-19), saying "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" It seems to me that if I were to agree with what you've written above, I'd have to say that Paul, as he described himself in chapter 7, was condemned. But Paul clearly didn't think this. He described what he did of himself in chapter 7 as a born-again person and, as such, no longer under the condemnation of the law.

Romans 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

This is the preface to Paul's description of his battle with the "law of sin warring in his members" (vs. 23) which makes it clear his struggle is as a born-again, law-liberated person. What, then, of your idea that a person in such a struggle is condemned? We read of many of those in the Early Church walking in this way, clearly not submitted to the Holy Spirit and enjoying his life and transforming work in them but still described as "brethren," "temples of the Holy Spirit," "in Christ," and so on. See 1 Co. 3, 5, 6, 11, Ga. 3:3, Ro. 6:1-3, Rev. 2-3, etc.

And, by the way, the KJV adds to Romans 8:1 "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." This bit is a later accretion to the verse and so, is left out of more modern (and accurate) versions of the verse (NASB, ESV, NIV, NET, CSB, RSV, etc.).

Dash RipRock said:

Dead, dried up religion knows nothing of being empowered by Holy Spirit to walk uprightly before the Lord because they don't allow the Holy Spirit to live in them which is why the must embrace the false eternal security teaching which came out of calvinism both of which are doctrines of devils based on a handful of bible passages requiring them to ignore or explain away large portions of God's Word.

Christianity is the call to walk in agreement with the Lord allowing His Spirit to LIVE in us, empowering us to not continue in sin!

Philippians 4:13 - I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

This is submission unto the Lord verses choosing to not submit to the Lord claiming to still be saved (disobedience)

Can a Christian walk in disobedience to the Lord, in opposition to the Lord and still be saved?

The eternal security people say yes they can which is why so many get born again, here this false ear tickling message and think it's all good they can continue living in sin like before they got born again and they are still saved because that's what most churches and preachers teach these days which is known as the security in sin false gospel authored by the devil.

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Well, this is just a sour tirade, I'm afraid ("dead, dried-up religion," "doctrines of devils," "explain away"). And the sourness of this diatribe reveals that you aren't actually walking in the power of the Holy Spirit (not when you wrote the tirade, at least).

I don't believe in the biblical teaching of eternal security because I subscribe to Calvinism (which I don't) but because the doctrine is plainly indicated in Scripture.

And how has the Spirit been empowering you not to live in sin? What does this experience look like in your life, exactly? It's hard to tell that you are enjoying the Spirit's power at work in you by the general tenor of your posts responding to those who disagree with you.

Yes, a Christian can walk in disobedience to the Lord and still be one of his. Read 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, Galatians 3-5, Romans 6:1-2, Revelation 2-3, etc.

Dash RipRock said:

The eternal security people say yes they can which is why so many get born again, here this false ear tickling message and think it's all good they can continue living in sin like before they got born again and they are still saved because that's what most churches and preachers teach these days which is known as the security in sin false gospel authored by the devil.

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If you think your right living keeps you saved, then you believe, essentially, in works-salvation which the Bible flatly and repeatedly denies.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

rockytopva said:

The toughest thing... Said he... Was to see generations come and go. I have got to agree with him here. It is tough to see a good bunch of people go.

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You should learn to cast your cares upon the Lord.

You were not created as a pack mule to carry around a bunch of sorrow, worry, fear, anxiety, etc which is one of the things that got Paul in trouble as he did not obey the Lord until later in life on this issue.

2 Corinthians 11:28 - Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Paul was not being obedient to 1 Peter 5:7 or Philippians 4:6 and spent time daily in care (sorrow, worry, fear, anxiety, etc) over the churches he had started or helped start and was ministering to which was an open door to the devil to keep attacking Paul (that was his thorn in the flesh)

1 Peter 5:7 - Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Philippians 4:6 - Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Later in life Paul let that care go and he got delivered from his affliction (2 Timothy 3:11) and the last record we have of Paul says NO MAN was forbidding him from preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Acts 28:30,31)