Is it possible to lose salvation?

[Behold]

Thank you for your detailed response and thoughtful engagement with Scripture. While I agree that salvation is entirely the work of Christ and not earned by human effort, I also believe the New Testament includes clear exhortations to continue in faith, abide in Christ, and not fall away—warnings that suggest human response matters.

The only Human Response that God will accept to save you and keep you saved by the Sacrifice of Jesus.....is your initial faith.

Once you Give God your faith in Christ......He accepts it, and from moment......"God who started salvation in all the born again, will Himself be faithful to complete it'.

Let me show the Reader how you take your first adult step into the understanding of your Salvation.

Its the moment that you receive the Revelation that your DISCHIPLESHIP........is not your SALVATiON......as at that exact moment, you have finally understood that JESUS is your Salvation...........and not your Discipleship.

 

[Kokyu]

Yet before the cross, Jesus said:

“"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” (Joh 5:24 NKJV)

Not, ".....will have everlasting life, after I have suffered on the cross."

John 5:24-26
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

If you want to construe Jesus as saying here that salvation of the sort achieved for us through his sacrifice at Calvary was available prior to his sacrifice, then I must ask, "Why make the sacrifice?" If salvation was possible sans the Atonement, how is the Atonement not, then, unnecessary?

I read in Scripture, too, that being "born-again" - saved - is to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-7; Ro. 8:9-14; Tit. 3:5-7; 1 Jn. 3:14). Are you suggesting that this was happening commonly, in the Acts 2 way, before Christ's Atonement, for all who believed on Christ as the Messiah sent from God? Where is this indicated in the NT? Except for the post-Calvary instance where Christ "breathed the Spirit" upon his disciples (Jn. 20:22), I know of no occasion prior to Christ's death and resurrection where anyone (save, perhaps, Jesus himself) received the Holy Spirit in the manner of the disciples in Acts 2. And Jesus's "breathing of the Spirit" was obviously not a full and permanent thing, as it became, finally, in Acts 2, or the Pentecost event would not have been necessary. What do you think, then, that Jesus meant by "has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment"? Are you suggesting its possible to be saved apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit, against the repeated statement in God's word that to be saved is to be so indwelt?

In light of these things, whatever Jesus meant in John 5:24, it seems to me he could not have meant one could be saved in the post-Calvary, born-again-by-the-Spirit sense. At most, I think Jesus is offering a sort of promissory note on his later atoning work at Calvary. Because his work there was certain, because it would not fail to happen - and succeed fully in its purpose - he could speak as though it were an accomplished fact in John 5:24. That effect was not yet actually in force, however, but would have to wait on his atoning work on the cross.

I suppose this is like the man who buys a new car with special custom features that has to be delivered straight from the manufacturer to the man rather than bought off the car lot. After the contract is signed and the money for the vehicle is paid, the salesman who sold the car to the man begins to refer to him as the "owner" of the vehicle, congratulating him and assuring him the car will prove to be an excellent purchase. The man is not actually yet the owner of the vehicle, however, in the sense that he has it in his possession and is using it. All he has, really, is a promise from the salesman that the car he's purchased will arrive in due time.

And so, when I say Jesus spoke to the Rich Young Ruler within an Old Covenant context, not only does the content of their exchange bear this out, but the point in time in which their exchange occurred also precludes a post-Calvary, New Covenant discussion between Jesus and the Young Ruler.

 

[MatthewG]

By your own freewill to choose God, you can also unfollow him all together reverting to faithlessness.

 

[Behold]

By your own freewill to choose God, you can also unfollow him all together reverting to faithlessness.

The Christian has gone from sinner to Spiritual Birth.....and this birth is Completed...its Eternal.

Being born again is not Temporary..

So, if you have a faith Crisis as a Christian, you have it as a Christian.

You can't stop being born again.

"well behold what if a Christian loses their faith".

A.) Faith isn't the Savior............GOD is the Savior, and He has already saved you if you are born again.

So, if you lose your faith........then here you go.. read this verse, Reader

ITS Paul showing us that God's promise to complete our salvation... is based on HIMSELF.....making the promise......so, if we are faithless, He will never stop being Faithful to US.

See, our Eternal Salvation is not based on US......its based on GOD's provision, His word, and His Son's Sacrifice.
-
KJ21
if we believe not, yet He abideth faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
ASV
if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself.
AMP
If we are faithless, He remains faithful [true to His word and His righteous character], for He cannot deny Himself.
AMPC
If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself.
BRG
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
CSB
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.
CEB
If we are disloyal, he stays faithful” because he can’t be anything else than what he is.
CJB
If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

By your own freewill to choose God, you can also unfollow him all together reverting to faithlessness.

even if we are faithless, he is faithfull. He can not deny himself

 

[Kokyu]

Thank you for your detailed response and thoughtful engagement with Scripture. While I agree that salvation is entirely the work of Christ and not earned by human effort, I also believe the New Testament includes clear exhortations to continue in faith, abide in Christ, and not fall away—warnings that suggest human response matters. Jesus' own teachings, including the parables you referenced, often emphasized perseverance and fruit-bearing as evidence of true discipleship.

Yes, genuine faith in Christ and resulting salvation will naturally result in corresponding works. Absolutely. But this doesn't mean that such works are necessary to genuine faith in Christ and salvation. Consider an apple tree: Is the too-young, or malnourished, or water-starved, or bug-afflicted apple tree that is not producing apples therefore not an apple tree? Is the fruit of the apple tree necessary to it being an apple tree, or merely just the natural by-product of being an apple tree? The latter, right? We don't say a very young sapling incapable of producing apples is therefore not an apple tree. We wouldn't say an apple tree suffering a long drought and therefore not producing apples is not an apple tree. If we did think these things about apple-less apple trees, we would be confusing what is natural to the tree with what is necessary to it being what it is.

Another example: Imagine a diver at the bottom of a lake swimming up to a big, man-made structure. He examines the silt-covered structure and thinks to himself, "It's a boat!" Why? It's not floating on the surface of the lake as boats are supposed to do. Well, the diver recognizes by the shape of the structure that it is a boat. There's a hull, and gunwales, a pointed bow and blunt stern bearing a rudder, and so on. There's also a big hole in the bottom of the boat, which is why its on the bottom of the lake. But, still, its recognizable to the diver as a boat. The diver recognizes that while floating on the surface of the water is the norm for a boat, such floating isn't necessary to it being a boat. A boat is still a boat even if its on the bottom of the lake (or in dry-dock being repaired, or painted).

In the same way that we don't confuse what is natural or normal to a particular thing (apple tree, boat) with what is necessary to its being what it is, we ought not to confuse what is natural to Christian living (good works) with what is necessary to being a Christian. A Christian may be like the apple tree not bearing fruit: He's extremely new to the faith, or spiritually malnourished and/or diseased by poor or false teaching, or he's infested with the destructive "pests" of old sinful habits and thinking, and so on. The Christian may, like the boat on the bottom of the lake, be suffering from a big hole in the "hull" of their understanding about their faith, or from some horrible tragedy, or from terrible treatment at the hands of fellow Christians. All of these things can massively interfere with the normal, natural spiritual "fruit" or "floating" of the Christian person.

 

[LoveYeshua]

I am saying this sincerely

do you not see the contradictions in the above two statements as I have separated

1st you say it is all of God with no human effort

2nd you say it is all of human effort..

how can it be both ways

you wrote; 1st you say it is all of God with no human effort
I said "salvation is entirely the work of Christ and not earned by human effort, "

salvation came thriugh Christ sacrifice and the Holy spirit sent to his believers, it is not obtained by our works, we do what is Good and pleasent to God because we live him

Wou changed the meaning of what I said

you wrote;:2nd you say it is all of human effort..

i wrote:"continue in faith, abide in Christ, and not fall away—warnings that suggest human response matters. Jesus' own teachings, including the parables you referenced, often emphasized perseverance and fruit-bearing as evidence of true discipleship."

it means what it means we must prove ourselves by persevering and bearing fruit ( christ was very cleat about this)

true felloshio is nor simply believing but doing also

there is no contradiction in what I saif they complement, but You cannot see this becaise yoy do not know what jesus was teaching, you know only what paul wrote, it is evident to me,

It is Not Paul who will judge you or any of us But Christ so "listen to Him!"

 

[LoveYeshua]

Yes, genuine faith in Christ and resulting salvation will naturally result in corresponding works. Absolutely. But this doesn't mean that such works are necessary to genuine faith in Christ and salvation

Consider an apple tree: Is the too-young, or malnourished, or water-starved, or bug-afflicted apple tree that is not producing apples therefore not an apple tree? Is the fruit of the apple tree necessary to it being an apple tree, or merely just the natural by-product of being an apple tree? The latter, right? We don't say a very young sapling incapable of producing apples is therefore not an apple tree. We wouldn't say an apple tree suffering a long drought and therefore not producing apples is not an apple tree. If we did think these things about apple-less apple trees, we would be confusing what is natural to the tree with what is necessary to it being what it is.

Another example: Imagine a diver at the bottom of a lake swimming up to a big, man-made structure. He examines the silt-covered structure and thinks to himself, "It's a boat!" Why? It's not floating on the surface of the lake as boats are supposed to do. Well, the diver recognizes by the shape of the structure that it is a boat. There's a hull, and gunwales, a pointed bow and blunt stern bearing a rudder, and so on. There's also a big hole in the bottom of the boat, which is why its on the bottom of the lake. But, still, its recognizable to the diver as a boat. The diver recognizes that while floating on the surface of the water is the norm for a boat, such floating isn't necessary to it being a boat. A boat is still a boat even if its on the bottom of the lake (or in dry-dock being repaired, or painted).

In the same way that we don't confuse what is natural or normal to a particular thing (apple tree, boat) with what is necessary to its being what it is, we ought not to confuse what is natural to Christian living (good works) with what is necessary to being a Christian. A Christian may be like the apple tree not bearing fruit: He's extremely new to the faith, or spiritually malnourished and/or diseased by poor or false teaching, or he's infested with the destructive "pests" of old sinful habits and thinking, and so on. The Christian may, like the boat on the bottom of the lake, be suffering from a big hole in the "hull" of their understanding about their faith, or from some horrible tragedy, or from terrible treatment at the hands of fellow Christians. All of these things can massively interfere with the normal, natural spiritual "fruit" or "floating" of the Christian person.

Faith without works is DEAD!
Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Jas 2:15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.

Jas 2:16 If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that?

Jas 2:17 So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action, is dead.

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Jas 2:20 O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?

Jas 2:21 Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

Jas 2:22 You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.

Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.

Jas 2:24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

About beating fruits, Jesus said;

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.”
— John 15:1–8 NKJV

In these words, Jesus compares Himself to a living vine, and those who follow Him to branches. The vine gives life and strength to the branches. Without the vine, the branches cannot live or produce anything. In the same way, without Jesus, we cannot do anything good or lasting. To “abide” in Jesus means to stay close to Him, to trust Him, to obey His words, and to live by His example.

Jesus makes it clear: “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away.” This is very serious. He is speaking about people who say they are His, who are joined to Him, but who do not bear fruit—meaning they do not live in obedience, do not grow in love, do not follow His teachings, and do not reflect His light in the world. The Father, who is the gardener, removes these branches. This shows that claiming to believe in Jesus is not enough. We must also live the way He taught us. Otherwise, we are like useless branches that do not serve their purpose.
Jesus also says that those who bear fruit are “pruned,” meaning the Father helps them grow stronger, even through testing or correction, so that they can bear more fruit. He is patient and works with those who are willing to walk with His Son.

In the end, bearing fruit is not optional. It is the sign that we are truly connected to Jesus. Those who do not bear fruit are cut off and burned—they are rejected in the final judgment. But those who remain in Jesus, and let His words live in them, will bear much fruit, and this brings glory to God. That is how we show we are truly His disciples. Bearing fruit means living a life that pleases God, that shows love, truth, obedience, and good works—not for our glory, but for His.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

you wrote; 1st you say it is all of God with no human effort
I said "salvation is entirely the work of Christ and not earned by human effort, "

since Christ is God. Then you said what I claimed you said.. not sure why you would deny it

salvation came thriugh Christ sacrifice and the Holy spirit sent to his believers, it is not obtained by our works, we do what is Good and pleasent to God because we live him

Yes.

Because he saved us, and out of gratitude and love. and the fact he made us new creatures and adopted us as his own children. we obey him

Wou changed the meaning of what I said

No I did not

You said we are not saved by human effort. and I repeated what you said.

you wrote;:2nd you say it is all of human effort..

i wrote:"continue in faith, abide in Christ, and not fall away—warnings that suggest human response matters. Jesus' own teachings, including the parables you referenced, often emphasized perseverance and fruit-bearing as evidence of true discipleship."

Yes. all of these things are of human effort in the way you worded them.

it means what it means we must prove ourselves by persevering and bearing fruit ( christ was very cleat about this)

by human effort

true felloshio is nor simply believing but doing also

yes. But we are not saved by true fellowship. we are saved by Grace of God. not by human effort. Your first sentence was 100% correct. we are completely saved by God and not human effort..

there is no contradiction in what I saif they complement, but You cannot see this becaise yoy do not know what jesus was teaching, you know only what paul wrote, it is evident to me,

No they contradict

You say we are not saved by human effort. then claim if we do not do works by human effort we will nto be saved.

It is Not Paul who will judge you or any of us But Christ so "listen to Him!"

Paul and Christ were in agreement.

The gospel according to Jesus and Paul​

John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

this is what our faith is in, the grace and mercy of God. not our deeds.

There is no works or human effort in our eternal desitnation.. it is all of grace

 

[bro.tan]

then you better be perfect. Because God commands moses. they must obey every word. or they are cursed.

Paul reitterated it in Gal 3. saying no one is justified according to the law. because it requires perfection

And james said if we even stumble or trip (not on purpose) one command, we are guilty

Jesus tried to get these people to admit they failed.. They would not losten.

will you?

In the scriptures it's written in Proverbs 24: 16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: But the wicked shall fall into mischief.

 

[Kokyu]

Faith without works is DEAD!
Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Jas 2:15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.

Jas 2:16 If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that?

Jas 2:17 So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action, is dead.

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Jas 2:20 O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?

Jas 2:21 Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

Jas 2:22 You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.

Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.

Jas 2:24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

I've already addressed this passage in an earlier post. James tells us what he means by "dead": alone (vs. 17), useless (vs. 16, 20) and incomplete (vs. 22). He doesn't mean "non-existent," nor does he mean "inadequate to put us in the position to be saved by the Savior." Our faith has no salvific power, remember. Only Jesus saves us; our faith only puts us in position to be saved by him. Consider the analogy I already gave about how the dentist alone fixes your bad tooth, though you must first believe he can and go to him for his help. If you make your faith at all salvific, then you, the one who exerts that faith, becomes a co-Savior with Christ, which is blasphemy.

About beating fruits, Jesus said;

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.”
— John 15:1–8 NKJV

In these words, Jesus compares Himself to a living vine, and those who follow Him to branches. The vine gives life and strength to the branches. Without the vine, the branches cannot live or produce anything. In the same way, without Jesus, we cannot do anything good or lasting. To “abide” in Jesus means to stay close to Him, to trust Him, to obey His words, and to live by His example.

I already addressed this passage, too. Jesus didn't compare himself to a vine, he said he was The Vine and those "in him" (Ga. 3:27; Ro. 14:13; Eph. 1:1-13) - those who abide in him by being saved, more precisely - are branches of the Vine. It wasn't just that his disciples followed him.

To "abide in Christ" means to be saved, not just to stay close to him, trust him, etc. In order to be saved, the Holy Spirit places the believer "in Christ" and he, the Spirit of Christ, places himself in them (Ro. 8:9). If this doesn't happen, a person is not abiding in Christ as a branch abides in the Vine (Ro. 8:9; 1 Jn. 4:13; Tit. 3:5) and is still the unsaved person described in John 15:6.

You'll notice that no branch ever "stays close" to the tree or vine from which it extends. You'll never see a branch straining with the effort of staying close to its tree, gripping the tree for all its worth. Such effort is unnecessary since a branch is always as "close" to the tree or vine as it can be as a natural consequence of being a branch. In the same way, we don't have to work in order to be in Christ, to abide in him. If we're saved we just are in Christ, like a branch just is in the tree or vine from which it has grown. The life of Christ dwells within us, as close as thought to us, in the Person of the Holy Spirit and we made no effort, no contribution, to his doing so.

Jesus makes it clear: “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away.” This is very serious. He is speaking about people who say they are His, who are joined to Him, but who do not bear fruit—meaning they do not live in obedience, do not grow in love, do not follow His teachings, and do not reflect His light in the world. The Father, who is the gardener, removes these branches.

The viticultural practice of Jesus' time and place (1st century Judea) was not to take away unfruitful branches but to lift them up from the ground onto supporting structures, where they were in better sunlight and less likely to be afflicted by excessive damp or pests. The ancient historian, Pliny the Younger, actually wrote a bit of a treatise in the subject, which is how we know that this was the practice of the time. In verse 2, the word translated as "takes away" is, in Greek, airo which means to "lift up," "bear up," or "take up," as well as "take away," and is translated in these ways in several instances in the NT.

So, then, verse 2 is actually saying that those in the Vine who don't bear fruit are lifted up in a supporting way, not taken away. Both the practice of the time and the word airo support this reading, as does the rest of the passage.

Now, God does take the lives of His children who live in persistent, willful sin. Both Paul and John remark on this (1 Co. 11:29-30; 1 Jn. 5:16). If you want to think that this is what verse 2 is talking about, the verse appears to me to bear this construction. But if you want to say that the Father removing these branches means Christians can lose their salvation, well, that is going much farther than the verse does, I think.

In the end, bearing fruit is not optional. It is the sign that we are truly connected to Jesus. Those who do not bear fruit are cut off and burned—they are rejected in the final judgment. But those who remain in Jesus, and let His words live in them, will bear much fruit, and this brings glory to God. That is how we show we are truly His disciples. Bearing fruit means living a life that pleases God, that shows love, truth, obedience, and good works—not for our glory, but for His.

No, this is all terribly in error. I've already explained why. Most importantly, what you describe here is essentially works-salvation (Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Ti. 1:9; Tit. 3:5), which is to say, making yourself a co-Savior with Christ: Jesus saves you but you keep yourself saved by your righteous living. If this is so, then you are as much your Savior as Jesus is. But this means his sacrifice at Calvary was insufficient to save, it was incomplete, needing your "two bits" of self-effort to be fully efficacious. Worse, it means also that you think you're capable of offering to God living sufficient to satisfy His demand for holy perfection. But if there's one thing that is made abundantly clear in Scripture it is that this is an utterly false and dangerous belief. (Ro. 3:10, 23; Ro. 7:18; John 15:4-5, etc.)

One other thing: It is not enough to seek God's glory in your living. He wants - He commands - your love and anything you do as His child apart from this heart's desire to know and walk with Him, apart from obedience to His command to love Him, however "glorifying" to God it may seem, is, God says in His word, spiritually useless and actually an act of disobedience. See: Matthew 22:36-38 and 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. How many Christians are living in this way, seeking God's glory but not from a deep, over-riding heart's desire for God, for deep, daily communion with Him! Instead, they are living as you appear to be doing, seeking to save themselves through moralism.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In the scriptures it's written in Proverbs 24: 16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: But the wicked shall fall into mischief.

in the scripture it says cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey ever word of this law..

God did not water down the law for you or me so we can not meet the standard he Gave israel and get a get out of jail card.

You have two options

the law
The cross

chose wisely

 

[Taken]

how can you lose something you could never earn?

and how is it glory to God if he made a mistake?

Good question…AND a confusion among men.

@Behold


Example…(parallel Secularly)
IF… “I” purchase A Gift exclusively “FOR YOU”, the GIFT “IS exclusively ONLY” For You.
IF…I offer you the Gift…
The Gift “IS” already… “Yours”
IF “YOU” refuse TO reach out “Your hand and TAKE YOUR GIFT”…
You LOSE possessing YOUR “Offered Gift”.

Example…(parallel Secularly)
IF … You enter a “Raffle”
AND … Your Ticket IS “Chosen”…
YOU … ARE the Official Winner of the Prize.
IF … you FAIL to Claim
AND … Thus Posess YOUR Prize according TO the alloted “TIME Frame deadline”…
You LOSE the Prize (you won “and Could have Possessed”.

Fact (Spiritually)
* The Lord God, Has “purchased the Gift of “Eternal Life For You”.
* The Lord God, Has Offered “His Gift of Eternal Life, TO You.
* YOU must “Reach out TAKE / CLAIM / POSSESS “Your Gift”….
* BEFORE “ the “Time-frame Deadline”…
* YOUR Time-Frame Deadline …
* IS…BEFORE “your natural mortal Body Physically DIES”.

* IF…YOU Fail To reach out and TAKE, CLAIM, ACCEPT/ POSSESS the Gift purchased and Offered TO you…
* YOU “LOSE Your Gift”…
* Because YOU Refused / Rejected / Accepting : Claiming / Possessing YOUR Gift…
* Before the Established Time/frame Deadline.

Ecc. 9:
[5 a]For the living know that they shall die:
[5 b]but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward;
[5c]for the memory of them is forgotten.

A dead Body… is a body without its Life.
A body’s Life IS it’s Blood.
A dead “bloodless / lifeless” Body… knows nothing, can do nothing…
And surely a deadly Body CANNOT plead a case for having missed the Time-frame Deadline to Accept The Lord Gods Offered Gift “that Body “ could have Taken, Claimrd, Possessed…BEFORE his “Body Mortally Died”.

Hope this helps.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[LoveYeshua]

I've already addressed this passage in an earlier post. James tells us what he means by "dead": alone (vs. 17), useless (vs. 16, 20) and incomplete (vs. 22). He doesn't mean "non-existent," nor does he mean "inadequate to put us in the position to be saved by the Savior." Our faith has no salvific power, remember. Only Jesus saves us; our faith only puts us in position to be saved by him. Consider the analogy I already gave about how the dentist alone fixes your bad tooth, though you must first believe he can and go to him for his help. If you make your faith at all salvific, then you, the one who exerts that faith, becomes a co-Savior with Christ, which is blasphemy.



I already addressed this passage, too. Jesus didn't compare himself to a vine, he said he was The Vine and those "in him" (Ga. 3:27; Ro. 14:13; Eph. 1:1-13) - those who abide in him by being saved, more precisely - are branches of the Vine. It wasn't just that his disciples followed him.

To "abide in Christ" means to be saved, not just to stay close to him, trust him, etc. In order to be saved, the Holy Spirit places the believer "in Christ" and he, the Spirit of Christ, places himself in them (Ro. 8:9). If this doesn't happen, a person is not abiding in Christ as a branch abides in the Vine (Ro. 8:9; 1 Jn. 4:13; Tit. 3:5) and is still the unsaved person described in John 15:6.

You'll notice that no branch ever "stays close" to the tree or vine from which it extends. You'll never see a branch straining with the effort of staying close to its tree, gripping the tree for all its worth. Such effort is unnecessary since a branch is always as "close" to the tree or vine as it can be as a natural consequence of being a branch. In the same way, we don't have to work in order to be in Christ, to abide in him. If we're saved we just are in Christ, like a branch just is in the tree or vine from which it has grown. The life of Christ dwells within us, as close as thought to us, in the Person of the Holy Spirit and we made no effort, no contribution, to his doing so.



The viticultural practice of Jesus' time and place (1st century Judea) was not to take away unfruitful branches but to lift them up from the ground onto supporting structures, where they were in better sunlight and less likely to be afflicted by excessive damp or pests. The ancient historian, Pliny the Younger, actually wrote a bit of a treatise in the subject, which is how we know that this was the practice of the time. In verse 2, the word translated as "takes away" is, in Greek, airo which means to "lift up," "bear up," or "take up," as well as "take away," and is translated in these ways in several instances in the NT.

So, then, verse 2 is actually saying that those in the Vine who don't bear fruit are lifted up in a supporting way, not taken away. Both the practice of the time and the word airo support this reading, as does the rest of the passage.

Now, God does take the lives of His children who live in persistent, willful sin. Both Paul and John remark on this (1 Co. 11:29-30; 1 Jn. 5:16). If you want to think that this is what verse 2 is talking about, the verse appears to me to bear this construction. But if you want to say that the Father removing these branches means Christians can lose their salvation, well, that is going much farther than the verse does, I think.



No, this is all terribly in error. I've already explained why. Most importantly, what you describe here is essentially works-salvation (Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Ti. 1:9; Tit. 3:5), which is to say, making yourself a co-Savior with Christ: Jesus saves you but you keep yourself saved by your righteous living. If this is so, then you are as much your Savior as Jesus is. But this means his sacrifice at Calvary was insufficient to save, it was incomplete, needing your "two bits" of self-effort to be fully efficacious. Worse, it means also that you think you're capable of offering to God living sufficient to satisfy His demand for holy perfection. But if there's one thing that is made abundantly clear in Scripture it is that this is an utterly false and dangerous belief. (Ro. 3:10, 23; Ro. 7:18; John 15:4-5, etc.)

One other thing: It is not enough to seek God's glory in your living. He wants - He commands - your love and anything you do as His child apart from this heart's desire to know and walk with Him, apart from obedience to His command to love Him, however "glorifying" to God it may seem, is, God says in His word, spiritually useless and actually an act of disobedience. See: Matthew 22:36-38 and 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. How many Christians are living in this way, seeking God's glory but not from a deep, over-riding heart's desire for God, for deep, daily communion with Him! Instead, they are living as you appear to be doing, seeking to save themselves through moralism.

Look, continue to believe Paul and totally ignore Jesus words and see where it leads you. you simply refuse the truth. Jesus was Given all authority on earth and in heaven, He is our Lord and Savior, Listen to Him!

Luk 6:46 Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I say?

Luk 6:47 I will show you what he is like who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them:

Luk 6:48 He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid his foundation on the rock. When the flood came, the torrent crashed against that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

Luk 6:49 But the one who hears My words and does not act on them is like a man who built his house on ground without a foundation. The torrent crashed against that house, and immediately it fell—and great was its destruction!”

________________________________________________​

Luk 9:33 As Moses and Elijah were leaving, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters —one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

Luk 9:34 While Peter was speaking, a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.

Luk 9:35 And a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him!”

Will you listen to Jesus and do as He asked? God Himself commands us to do so !

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good question…AND a confusion among men.

I think it is confusing because it apposes itself

if I can not earn something, and it is given to me anyway, and I am given ownership.

then my ownership can not stop because I have unearned it.

 

[Taken]

I think it is confusing because it apposes itself

if I can not earn something, and it is given to me anyway, and I am given ownership.

then my ownership can not stop because I have unearned it.

Salvation is NOT about… work, labor, earning.

Salvation IS about …ACCEPTING…a Gift a man does NOT Earn. (Nor broadly “deserve”.)

Gods LOVE for His Creations Is So Profound, Magnified, Grand…
Even those (people) who Have Denied Him, Rejected Him, Blasphemed Against Him, Promoted, Advocated for others to Be Against Him…ARE Offered His Gift Of Salvation….
IF the should Freely Chose To Believe.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Salvation is NOT about… work, labor, earning.

Salvation IS about …ACCEPTING…a Gift a man does NOT Earn. (Nor broadly “deserve”.)

exactly

Gods LOVE for His Creations Is So Profound, Magnified, Grand…
Even those (people) who Have Denied Him, Rejected Him, Blasphemed Against Him, Promoted, Advocated for others to Be Against Him…ARE Offered His Gift Of Salvation….
IF the should Freely Chose To Believe.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

yes.. and since it is of grace. it can be lost.

the question was. Can one lose salvation.

the answer is a profound no

 

[Taken]

exactly

yes.. and since it is of grace. it can be lost.

the question was. Can one lose salvation.

the answer is a profound no

A “person” Can Lose his “Salvation”…
By, Through, OF … NOT Taking, Claiming, Possessing his “gift of Salvation…
Before the mortal person Dies a mortal Death.

And on the Flip side…
A person WHO HAS, taken, claimed, possesses his Gift of Salvation…
Can Thereafter (the taking, claiming, possessing)…
NEVER “LOSE” his Gift of Salvation .
(Ie. The OSAS concept and meaning).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A “person” Can Lose his “Salvation”…
By, Through, OF … NOT Taking, Claiming, Possessing his “gift of Salvation…
Before the mortal person Dies a mortal Death.

a person who is saved has taken possession of it

If they have not received it. then they were never saved,. so they did not lose salvation they never had it..

And on the Flip side…
A person WHO HAS, taken, claimed, possesses his Gift of Salvation…
Can Thereafter (the taking, claiming, possessing)…
NEVER “LOSE” his Gift of Salvation .
(Ie. The OSAS concept and meaning).

Glory to God,
Taken

yes

 

[Kokyu]

Look, continue to believe Paul and totally ignore Jesus words and see where it leads you.

??? I believe all of God's word is inspired by God, which is to say, by Jesus who is God. So, whether I reference words written by Paul or by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, I'm referencing, ultimately, the words of Jesus. And remember: Jesus's words were written by the hands of these men, not by Jesus himself. They claim to render his words as faithfully as Paul does (1 Co. 2:10; Ga. 1:11-12). What makes their claims superior to Paul's? Why do you trust these men to have done a better, more faithful, job than Paul did in communicating the truth? Anyway, I think pitting Paul against Jesus as though they are in opposition to one another is a very unChristian (and spiritually dangerous) thing to do. The earliest Christians didn't do this. The apostle Peter even explicitly acknowledged that Paul wrote authoritative Scripture (2 Pe. 3:15-16). So, I don't ignore Jesus and continue to believe Paul. I give Paul's words and the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John equal weight in my thinking.

Luk 6:46 Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I say?

Luk 6:47 I will show you what he is like who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them:

Luk 6:48 He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid his foundation on the rock. When the flood came, the torrent crashed against that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

Luk 6:49 But the one who hears My words and does not act on them is like a man who built his house on ground without a foundation. The torrent crashed against that house, and immediately it fell—and great was its destruction!”

I don't see in this passage anything about a born-again Christian losing their salvation. Instead, it looks to me like Jesus is talking about the person who hears his words about the coming kingdom of God and ignores them. He was speaking to a primarily Jewish audience at a time when the Old Covenant was still in force. It's no surprise, then, that his remarks were reflective of that law-focused context.

Luk 9:33 As Moses and Elijah were leaving, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters —one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

Luk 9:34 While Peter was speaking, a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.

Luk 9:35 And a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him!”

Will you listen to Jesus and do as He asked? God Himself commands us to do so !

See above.

I listen to Jesus as carefully as I'm able. And because I do, I refuse to accept contortions of what he's recorded as saying, such as the works-salvation, saved-and-lost contortion you're asserting.