Every rapture position is new

Spiritual Israelite said:

That's not the truth, that's something that comes from a very active imagination. If there were two raptures then Paul would have written about two raptures, but he only wrote about one (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

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Well, you are right that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture of the Church. It happens at the trump of God or voice of God

You must be unaware of this verse. It's about the second fold. It occurs at the last trump which is blown on the feast of Trumpets.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Spiritual Israelite said:

. And Jesus talked about that same event, referring to it as the gathering of the elect from the uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven (Mark 13:27).

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The gathering from heaven and earth is the Church being gathered from heaven as they are the first fold and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth as the second fold. All return to heaven at the sixth seal for the marriage supper and are the great multitude seen in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19.

The Light said:

Well, you are right that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture of the Church. It happens at the trump of God or voice of God

You must be unaware of this verse. It's about the second fold. It occurs at the last trump which is blown on the feast of Trumpets.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.




The gathering from heaven and earth is the Church being gathered from heaven as they are the first fold and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth as the second fold. All return to heaven at the sixth seal for the marriage supper and are the great multitude seen in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19.

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The last Trumpet is Blown at the Second Coming of Christ and not one day before His Return.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Pay attention to "the stars will fall from heaven" = Acts ch2

17‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Revelation ch12
7Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels.
9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world.
He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

The thing to keep in mind regarding the resurrection/rapture is that it could happen at any time - before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4, revealing himself as the man of sin.

That's when the Day of the Lord begins and His wrath begins to be poured out.

So any time between now and then.

David in NJ said:

Why did God spare Enoch and Elijah from tasting death???

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Since God said it's appointed unto each man to die once and these two never died physically yet.

These are most likely going to be the two witnesses in the great tribulation that are eventually killed and God raises them back to life and everyone see it happen on live TV

David in NJ said:

The last Trumpet is Blown at the Second Coming of Christ and not one day before His Return.

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I have no Idea why you think I am saying that the second coming is one day before His return. Bad conclusion on your part.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal...........immediately after the tribulation.

Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath and sets His feet on the mount of Olives......this is the second advent.

The actual second coming of the Lord is when He sets down on the Mount of Olives in Israel

He's takes over the entire world and locks up the devil, and throws the anti-christ and the false prophet in to the LOF

Big Boy Johnson said:

The actual second coming of the Lord is when He sets down on the Mount of Olives in Israel

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The coming means an arrival and that is accomplished when he is in the sky and every eye can see him. Post-coming/arrival events would be when he is on the ground etc.

Big Boy Johnson said:

He's takes over the entire world and locks up the devil, and throws the anti-christ and the false prophet in to the LOF

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The FP is the AC but yes, he casts the two beasts into the LOF and then an angel imprisons satan for a thousand years.

Every rapture doctrine is not new. One is teh official position of scripture so it is the oldest: Poist-trib. Paul; wrote against the idea that Christ could come at any moment, and cited two events that have to happen before He returns. That is against an early version of pre-trib that teaches Jesus can return for the rapture at any moment, which is what Paul wrote against.

Only mid-trib can be considered new, and it's been around for awhile.

The Light said:

I have no Idea why you think I am saying that the second coming is one day before His return. Bad conclusion on your part.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal...........immediately after the tribulation.

Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath and sets His feet on the mount of Olives......this is the second advent.

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JESUS is brings the wrath of God when He comes = there is no turning around.

11Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

ewq1938 said:

The coming means an arrival and that is accomplished when he is in the sky and every eye can see him. Post-coming/arrival events would be when he is on the ground etc.

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Nah, His second coming is actually when He land on the ground and takes over the world.

The rapture is His rescue of His faithful.

ewq1938 said:

The FP is the AC but yes, he casts the two beasts into the LOF and then an angel imprisons satan for a thousand years.

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What about the LP and the 9G ?

What's up with the acronyms? Are they WQ and GZ or something?

Jericho said:

I never claimed to be an authority. Do you have evidence to refute my supposition?

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I think he wants to see your credentials.

Like did you go to bible college or seminary to earn a piece of paper to hang on your wall so everyone one can be amazingly amazed and say "Wow! Back up, this guy is educated"

Big Boy Johnson said:

I think he wants to see your credentials.

Like did you go to bible college or seminary to earn a piece of paper to hang on your wall so everyone one can be amazingly amazed and say "Wow! Back up, this guy is educated"

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"respect of persons" is the spiritual virus amongst 'christianity' and the world

WPM said:

You seem to think, if you state an extra-biblical opinion, that makes it a fact. Well, that is not the way it works.

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You seem to think that anything from the Word of God that is not New Testament is extra-Biblical. Well, that is not the way it works.

WPM said:

1. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
2. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
3. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
4. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
5. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
6. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
7. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
8. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?

Take them one at a time - if you can! Start with Number 1. Is that such a hard ask?

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I could answer some of these with New Testament verses but we both know that would be a waste of my time. It won't change a thing.

Additionally,

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

David in NJ said:

"respect of persons" is the spiritual virus amongst 'christianity' and the world

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And another virus going around is people thinking just because someone went to a bible college or a seminary and got a piece of paper to hang on their wall that means they are educated and know what they are talking about.

The majority of those with the piece of paper have been indoctrinated in false doctrine and are trained in how to spread their false doctrine.

David in NJ said:

JESUS is brings the wrath of God when He comes = there is no turning around.

11Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

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You quote from Revelation 19 when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath occurs in the 7th seal.

This has nothing to do with the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth.

This of course is the second rapture shown here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Jericho said:

I never claimed to be an authority. Do you have evidence to refute my supposition?

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You made the bold claims in the Op. The burden of proof is therefore with you. So far, you have presented no historic evidence. The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must approve. So you have the floor.

The Light said:

You seem to think that anything from the Word of God that is not New Testament is extra-Biblical. Well, that is not the way it works.


I could answer some of these with New Testament verses but we both know that would be a waste of my time. It won't change a thing.

Additionally,

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

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Exactly! You have nothing. That is all we are getting on this thread: man's opinions. It amounts to nothing.

Big Boy Johnson said:

What is true is during the second half of the 3 year period killing of Christians will be widespread which it is not right now as that's not going on all over the world currently.

If you'd like to be martyred for your faith go to Saudia Arabia and stand on a street corner with a big sign that says mohamid is a false prophet and they'll take care of you pronto.

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Show us your biblical support for a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-yr tribulation period followed by 3rd coming?