You do here with my words what you do with God's word, redacting my statement to suit your bias and preconceptions and offering a contortion of the truth as a result.
Is it possible to lose salvation?
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You do here with my words what you do with God's word, redacting my statement to suit your bias and preconceptions and offering a contortion of the truth as a result.
Jesus Wept
New Member
Excellent Scripture.
Some more :
Adding verse 11 as well
Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’
Filipp 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
2Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Paul, you of all?
Matt 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Said to believers.
And so on.
There are countless of warnings, it's silly to ignore them, better believe in the whole package.
To death of course.
Hebr 3:14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Hebr 6:11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end,
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
It has led to a lack of reverential fear of GOD .
Gone and long gone are the days wherein paul once wrote
KNOWING the TERROR of GOD we persuade men .
Or it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD .
And while i fully do understand that GOD desires the death of none but rather the wicked would repent
And that HE IS VERY LONG SUFFERING and full of mercy and compassion
THERE IS A REASON GOD did warn and remind folks to repent
THERE is a reason WHY CHRIST was quite grave and warned as well
ITS For our own good . WE DO need to behold BOTH the GOODNESS of GOD and THE severerity of GOD .
But they been busy omitting severity and warnings
AND that led to a massive creation of a FALSE GOODNESS OF GOD
A goodness which implies , worry not , live and let live, all is well , all shall be fine
for the road to GOD is broad indeed .
IF ONE omits either one , THE GOODNESS OF , and or the SEVERITY OF GOD
IN TRUTH THEY HAVE OMITTED BOTH . because a false version of the goodness of GOD they will and do preach .
A goodness that now has led NOT to repentance but to ACCEPTANCE
and it sure seems to be accepting more and more evil in these last hours
and it sure seems to be hating more than ever any TRUTH that exposes ITS SO CALLED LOVE and goodness
WE either preach ALL THE TRUTH OF GOD
but if we pick and choose what truth to preach and what to omit
WE NEVER WILL speak the truth , only a messed up watered down deadly version of GOD that darn sure AINT GOD .
Romans 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
2 Timothy 4:17-18
17 But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that the message might be preached fully through me, and that all the Gentiles might hear. Also I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!
No, this was not said to born-again believers, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jesus had not died on the cross and the Holy Spirit had not yet been given as the Comforter to all "joint-heirs with Christ." There could not have been, then, any New Covenant, spiritually-regenerated believers in Jesus's audience. In actuality, Jesus was speaking to Jews within the Old Covenant context, saying nothing of his atonement for sin, the empowering life and work of the Holy Spirit, or spiritual regeneration. Matthew 7:19, then, is grossly misapplied to Christians.
Were the "carnal babes in Christ" in Corinth "sharing in Christ" (1 Co. 3:1-3)? Were the wretched, nearly dead believers in Sardis and Laodicea "sharing in Christ" (Rev. 3)? Were the foolish brethren in Galatia who were migrating into Old Covenant law-keeping "sharing in Christ" (Ga. 3:3)? What does it mean to "share in Christ"? Is this synonymous with "being saved"? On what grounds can one assert this, scripturally?
2 Peter 1:1-11
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
Peter is addressing here, those who have obtained - past tense, already accomplished event - the same precious faith he had come to possess.
3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Peter explains in these verses that, in being saved, the born-again believer has been given "all things that pertain to life and godliness." On what basis? Through the knowledge of Christ, the Savior, (not the good works of the believer - Eph. 2:8-9; Tit. 3:5-7; 2 Ti. 1:9) through whom the believers to whom Peter is writing HAVE ALREADY received "exceedingly great and precious promises" by which these believers may be "partakers of (or, those who share in - Gk. metochos - to share in, partake) the divine nature."
Why is Peter writing this explanation? If the brethren to whom he's writing are already truly brethren who have "obtained a like precious faith by the righteousness of God and Jesus (NOT by their own righteousness)" would they not automatically be living in those promises? If this were so, Peter would, obviously, have had no need to write this explanation at the beginning of his second letter. That he did write it means that the genuine believers to whom Peter was writing were saved but not properly partaking - or sharing - in the divine nature.
This is confirmed by Peter going on to explain to his born-again brethren (vs. 1) how they could begin to fully partake in the "divine nature" present within them in the Person of the Holy Spirit.
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Here, Peter articulates the "how" of "partaking in the divine nature." By diligently adding to the faith in Christ that brought them to salvation (Ro. 10:9-10) virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love. All of these things, of course, originate in the Person of the Holy Spirit who bears the "fruit" of who he is (Ga. 5:22-23) in every born-again child of God as they agree, by their constant submission to him, to his doing so (Ro. 6:13-22; 8:13-14; 12:1; Ja. 4:6-10; 1 Pe. 5:6).
All of this, though, Peter is explaining to those who were saved but did not yet understand how to share in Christ (i.e. partake of the divine nature). There is, then, a condition a born-again person can be in where they are saved - and forever so - but are not enjoying all that is theirs in Jesus Christ, and insofar as this is the case, they have yet to "share (partake) in Christ." Because this is possible, because it is possible to have "obtained a like precious faith" to that which Peter enjoyed (i.e to be saved) and not fully partake in all that is one's "inheritance" in Christ, Peter concluded his explanation with a warning:
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
The Christian who is merely born-again, not moving into the deeper life in Christ, is so "short-sighted" as to be nearly blind and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sin. Peter, here, does NOT say, though, that such a person has lost their cleansing altogether and is unsaved. They could be nearly "blind" spiritually, not partaking properly in the "divine nature," and yet STILL be a brother (or sister) in the faith.
To make this fact very clear, Peter referred to the "calling and election" of the brethren to whom he wrote, saying that they would make these things "sure" as they did as he'd instructed. What did he mean by "make sure"? Well, he explained what he meant: "never stumble" (vs. 10). By not stumbling, making their "calling and election sure" by diligently adding to their faith in Christ the "fruit" of the indwelling Holy Spirit, the readers of Peter's second letter would not merely have entrance into God's kingdom but have it "abundantly."
As Paul pointed out, there would be those who will enter God's kingdom "so as by fire" (or with the smoke of hell on their clothes), all of their "wood, hay and stubble" that they had built upon their spiritual foundation (who is Christ) consumed in the fiery testing at the Final Judgment (1 Co. 3:11-15). These will not have the "abundant entrance" into God's eternal kingdom of which Peter wrote above, but they will, nonetheless, have entrance into that kingdom.
And so, when I read "share in Christ" I understand the phrase in the light of the above, recognizing, as a result, that it is not a reference to being saved but to enjoying all the spiritual benefits one inherits as a "joint-heir" in Jesus Christ (Ro. 8:16; Eph. 1:3). And so, those who don't "share in Christ" are not Christian who cease to be saved, but Christians who have yet to do as Peter instructed above and fully enjoy all that is theirs spiritually in Jesus.
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Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
That's true, however some of His children run away from home choosing to serve sin rather than the Lord and are no longer in right standing before the Lord.
Those dying in that condition sadly go to hell
In Romans 6 where Paul wrote of being a servant of whatever one obeys, he was not speaking of salvation, he was not saying that being a servant/slave of sin resulted in the loss of one's salvation, but that a Christian who lived as a slave to sin was living entirely contrary to who they actually are in Jesus Christ (a servant of righteousness). And so, Paul urged those Christians to whom he was writing to cease living in a way so incongruous with the truth about who they were in Jesus. Just read through the whole chapter to see this.
Not at all. In fact, Paul makes the opposite point in the first half of Romans 6. He explained to the believers at Rome that it was in contradiction to the truth about them as born-again believers, united with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection, for them to live in sin. He never says that living in this contradictory way meant his readers were unsaved. He says to them only to stop living in this contradictory way, not that they needed to be saved all over again.
Galatians 6:6-10
6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
What is the main thrust of Paul's words here? He begins the section above by telling believers to "share all good things" with those who teach them spiritually (vs. 6). So, then, what follows in verses 7 and 8 is further comment specifically on giving to those who teach. If a person receiving teaching "sows" generosity toward their teachers, s/he will reap the same (vs. 7). But if a person deals selfishly with their teachers ("sows to his flesh"), that person will "reap corruption." If, however, they "sow to the Spirit" in their generosity toward their teachers, they will "reap life everlasting" (vs. 8). In other words, if a Christian expresses the generosity of the Holy Spirit in their dealings with their spiritual teachers (i.e. they "sow to the Spirit"), the everlasting life of the Spirit is "reaped" in greater proportion in their life. All of this is confirmed as the proper contextual understanding of Paul's words in verse 10 where he returns to his original thought which was to "do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith," which would include one's spiritual teachers, of course. There is, then, no ground for the doctrine of salvation-lost in this passage.
What people? Those who espouse the properly-biblical doctrine of OSAS? They aren't at all as you describe them, here. In fact, your highly over-generalized statement about those who hold to OSAS is of a kind with the racist who wants to lump together all black, or Chinese, or white people, assigning them all the same behaviours, and attitudes and blame of only a few among them. This parallel of over-generalizing, then, ought to disturb you; for it is as wrong in a Christian as it is in a racist.
As for your reference to Hebrews 3:14, please consider what I wrote to @ProDeo on it.
As I've explained to you already, I've been holding to OSAS, and teaching the doctrine to folks for decades and not once have I ever urged anything but holy, Christ-centered living upon fellow believers. It is, then, a flat-out LIE that those who hold to OSAS are "alive to sin" and preaching "rebellion." This may be true for some, but it is not true for the "many" as you claim above. I actually know many (hundreds of) people who hold to OSAS and not one of them is anything like you've described.
And where does that obedience begin? Love. See the First and Great Commandment (Matt. 22:36-38). Do you love God with all of your being? Is this the ground out of which all of your other law-keeping arises (1 Co. 13:1-3)?
And why does God command our obedience? For His sake? Not at all. God's perfect; He doesn't need our obedience. He tells us to obey His commands for our sake, to protect and bless us, and to enable full fellowship with Himself. So, God isn't in heaven frothing at the mouth when His children fail to obey Him, shaking His fist at them shouting, "Obey, obey, obey!" This is the twisted version of God that legalism creates. God's commands express His love to us and when we don't follow them, we suffer. If we won't obey, God, who is perfect, He is not at all harmed, or diminished. Again, He doesn't need us to obey.
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