Strange fire conference: For God's glory or control

Dodo_David · Dec 7, 2013

Dodo_David said:
Aren't you begging the question? MacArthur is challenging people to use the Bible to determine if a work is of the Holy Spirit.

Michael V Pardo said:
He's actually done a bit more than that (if you were following the excerpts from the Strange Fire conference that were aired on Grace to You.) J.M. literally defined everyone associated with the Charismatic movement as a heretic and in one shot alienated hundreds of thousands of people who have made the good confession and placed their faith in the finished redemptive work of Jesus Christ upon the cross. This might not have been his intention, but he clearly did so. Who or what gave him the right? The man literally treads the line of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, when he lumps together charlatans with born again believers, based upon his own interpretation of scripture. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to appoint yourself an arbiter of scriptural truth, while at the same time teaching non explicitly stated doctrines such as the pre-tribulation rapture of the church? MacArthur's preaching doesn't hold to his own standards.

I agree that MacArthur is unnecessarily abrasive when it comes to how he presents his arguments. To me, he appears to lack tact and diplomacy.

Still, IMHO, it is not blasphemy to insist that people judge their religious experiences according to what the Bible teaches.

marksman · Dec 8, 2013

Dodo_David said:
Still, IMHO, it is not blasphemy to insist that people judge their religious experiences according to what the Bible teaches.

We didn't say it was. What we are referring to his penchance to call the operation of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives that do not fall in line with his understanding the work of Satan.

You cannot get more blasphemous than saying miracles do not happen today when they obviously do because no miracle happens unless it is a work of the Holy Spirit as none of us can heal or deliver anyone.

Dodo_David · Dec 8, 2013

marksman said:
We didn't say it was. What we are referring to his penchance to call the operation of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives that do not fall in line with his understanding the work of Satan.

You cannot get more blasphemous than saying miracles do not happen today when they obviously do because no miracle happens unless it is a work of the Holy Spirit as none of us can heal or deliver anyone.

I haven't read MacArthur's new book to see what he claims.

What I do know is that any alleged "work of the Holy Spirit" can't contradict what is revealed in Scripture.
Sadly, I have seen just that in some charismatic congregations.

marksman · Dec 8, 2013

Dodo_David said:
I haven't read MacArthur's new book to see what he claims.

What I do know is that it any alleged "work of the Holy Spirit" can't contradict what is revealed in Scripture.
Sadly, I have seen just that in some charismatic congregations.

it is not a new book. I read it at least 10 years ago.

As to your second point that is not the issue. The issue is JM saying that ALL manifestations which are claimed to be the work of the Holy Spirit are of the devil when obviously they are not. That is what you are saying if you claim the gifts of the Spirit no longer exist. If there are no gifts there are supernatural happenings of the Holy Spirit.

In one church I was in for 10 years, I saw the gifts happening almost on a weekly basis.

marksman said:
it is not a new book. I read it at least 10 years ago.

As to your second point that is not the issue. The issue is JM saying that ALL manifestations which are claimed to be the work of the Holy Spirit are of the devil when obviously they are not. That is what you are saying if you claim the gifts of the Spirit no longer exist. If there are no gifts there are supernatural happenings of the Holy Spirit.

In one church I was in for 10 years, I saw the gifts happening almost on a weekly basis.

Sorry I meant to say if there are no gifts there are no supernatural happenings of the Holy Spirit.

Arnie Manitoba · Dec 8, 2013

I dont think John MacArthur threw the Holy Spirit under the bus.

It has been 2 weeks since I watched the video .... and the way i remember it is it warns us to be careful what we attribute to Holy Spirit.

For example .... if somebody at a "charismatic" gathering begins to crawl around on the floor and make sounds like an animal we should not label it as Holy Spirit simply because somebody on stage claims it is.

.

Dodo_David · Dec 8, 2013

Arnie Manitoba said:
I dont think John MacArthur threw the Holy Spirit under the bus.

It has been 2 weeks since I watched the video .... and the way i remember it is it warns us to be careful what we attribute to Holy Spirit.

For example .... if somebody at a "charismatic" gathering begins to crawl around on the floor and make sounds like an animal we should not label it as Holy Spirit simply because somebody on stage claims it is.

.

That is my point exactly. Plenty of things are claimed to be of the Holy Spirit, but how are we to know that they really are of the Holy Spirit?

Because a popular teacher or preacher says they are? Because they are popular among the masses? Because they are emotionally pleasing?

I have witnessed plenty of false things that were claimed to be of the Holy Spirit, and I knew that they were false because they conflicted with teachings of the Bible.

I disagree with MacArthur on one particular point regarding the alleged cessation of spiritual gifts.

God still has the authority and the ability to give any spiritual gift to whomever He chooses.

marksman · Dec 8, 2013

Arnie Manitoba said:
For example .... if somebody at a "charismatic" gathering begins to crawl around on the floor and make sounds like an animal we should not label it as Holy Spirit simply because somebody on stage claims it is.

I have read JMs book Charismatic Chaos, in which he sets out all his objections to the work of the Holy Spirit today (read that as charismatic and Pentecostal).

Throughout the book when he used examples to illustrate what he was saying he always picked on extreme examples like the one above. His main targets were people like Copeland, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar and such like. Didn't mention Fred Phelps but I guess he was OK because he was not charismatic.

Some of my observations as I read were you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater; there are extremes in every branch of the church and one does not usually model oneself on those extremes; even JM has his own extreme of hyper Calvinism; if you base a book entirely on extremes, you do a disservice to the body of Christ because most people cannot relate to it; what we should be worried about is not the gifts of the Spirit in the church. We should be worried about the lack of them; what do you say to those who have been healed or delivered supernaturally. Sorry but that was the devil so you will have to give up your freedom or healing?

I happen to know about the example given above and through whom it happened but I have not rejected the person because the overwhelming testimony of those who received his ministry is words to the effect that they discovered God again and as a result their ministry had had a new lease of life when they were ready to give up entirely.

When I hear things like that, who cares about the odd, odd example as he is obviously doing something right. One thing I do know. Satan does not try to get people into a closer and more vital relationship with the Lord. Only God can do that.

Dodo_David · Dec 8, 2013

marksman said:
I have read JMs book Charismatic Chaos, in which he sets out all his objections to the work of the Holy Spirit today (read that as charismatic and Pentecostal).

Throughout the book when he used examples to illustrate what he was saying he always picked on extreme examples like the one above. His main targets were people like Copeland, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar and such like. Didn't mention Fred Phelps but I guess he was OK because he was not charismatic.

Some of my observations as I read were you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater; there are extremes in every branch of the church and one does not usually model oneself on those extremes; even JM has his own extreme of hyper Calvinism; if you base a book entirely on extremes, you do a disservice to the body of Christ because most people cannot relate to it; what we should be worried about is not the gifts of the Spirit in the church. We should be worried about the lack of them; what do you say to those who have been healed or delivered supernaturally. Sorry but that was the devil so you will have to give up your freedom or healing?

I happen to know about the example given above and through whom it happened but I have not rejected the person because the overwhelming testimony of those who received his ministry is words to the effect that they discovered God again and as a result their ministry had had a new lease of life when they were ready to give up entirely.

When I hear things like that, who cares about the odd, odd example as he is obviously doing something right. One thing I do know. Satan does not try to get people into a closer and more vital relationship with the Lord. Only God can do that.

MacArthur's book Charismatic Chaos was written 20 years ago, long before anyone outside of Westboro, Kansas had ever heard of Fred Phelps.

Also, the charismatic preachers whom MacArthur mentions in the book were the dominant charismatic preachers at the time that the book was written.

Those preacher had (and still have) a strong influence on people who describe themselves as charismatics.

What those preachers promoted became the rule, not the exception, in numerous charismatic churches.

I know these things because I have personally visited plenty of charismatic churches that follow the teachings of the aforementioned charismatic preachers. Some of those particular preachers had their start in the county that I live in.

marksman · Dec 8, 2013

Dodo_David said:
MacArthur's book Charismatic Chaos was written 20 years ago, long before anyone outside of Westboro, Kansas had ever heard of Fred Phelps.

Also, the charismatic preachers whom MacArthur mentions in the book were the dominant charismatic preachers at the time that the book was written.

Those preacher had (and still have) a strong influence on people who describe themselves as charismatics.

What those preachers promoted became the rule, not the exception, in numerous charismatic churches.

I know these things because I have personally visited plenty of charismatic churches that follow the teachings of the aforementioned charismatic preachers. Some of those particular preachers had their start in the county that I live in.

I have no doubt what you say is true, but as I say, one does not throw the baby out with the bathwater. And as you said you disagree with JM on the subject of cessationist belief.

Dodo_David · Dec 8, 2013

marksman said:
I have no doubt what you say is true, but as I say, one does not throw the baby out with the bathwater. And as you said you disagree with JM on the subject of cessationist belief.

Yes, I consider MacArthur as having gone too far in implying that God would never again give believers in the Messiah all of the spiritual gifts listed in the New Testament. If God wants to continue giving those gifts, then He can and will.

In his book The Holy Spirit, Dr. Billy Graham mentions the fact that certain spiritual gifts can be counterfeited, but he doesn't say that genuine spiritual gifts have ceased.

michaelvpardo · Dec 9, 2013

Dodo_David said:
Still, IMHO, it is not blasphemy to insist that people judge their religious experiences according to what the Bible teaches.

Of course not, but it is blasphemous to attribute works done by the Holy Spirit through believers to Satan, which MacArthur did if any of the works done by "charismatics" have been genuine.
When I was young, I heard the "testimony" of a man named Marjoe Gortner, the son of a tent revivalist, speaking about the con game that he was a part of as a family, so I've never taken such things at face value. However, I've had personal experiences since I've been born again that I didn't understand and which were described by others as works of the Holy Spirit and entirely biblical in nature. I don't claim any extraordinary gifts, yet the Lord has performed some manifestations of His Spirit through me at times and when I was actively engaged in ministry or personal evangelism. According to John MacArthur's generalized statements, those occurrences were just fraud on my part, or the working of demonic forces through me (consequently my faith in my Savior and the blood shed on my behalf are accounted by J.M. as nothing.) This is something of an offense to me, and since I've never claimed credit for these things (as in some sort of personal accomplishment), but gave God the glory in Christ Jesus, wouldn't you think that such characterizations are an offense to Him? I'm inclined to believe that J.M. and his "strange fire" conference associates are somewhat "spiritually challenged," (they clearly are "agape challenged" if nothing else) and if that seems unkind perhaps it is, yet it's a far cry short of calling them frauds, liars and deceivers, which is what they've done to a large part of the church.

marksman · Dec 9, 2013

Michael V Pardo said:
However, I've had personal experiences since I've been born again that I didn't understand and which were described by others as works of the Holy Spirit and entirely biblical in nature. I don't claim any extraordinary gifts, yet the Lord has performed some manifestations of His Spirit through me at times and when I was actively engaged in ministry or personal evangelism.

According to John MacArthur's generalized statements, those occurrences were just fraud on my part, or the working of demonic forces through me (consequently my faith in my Savior and the blood shed on my behalf are accounted by J.M. as nothing.) This is something of an offense to me, and since I've never claimed credit for these things (as in some sort of personal accomplishment), but gave God the glory in Christ Jesus, wouldn't you think that such characterizations are an offense to Him?

I'm inclined to believe that J.M. and his "strange fire" conference associates are somewhat "spiritually challenged," (they clearly are "agape challenged" if nothing else) and if that seems unkind perhaps it is, yet it's a far cry short of calling them frauds, liars and deceivers, which is what they've done to a large part of the church.

Well said Michael. I go back to my contention that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater which JM appears to have done.

Apart from the fact that Satan will NEVER give glory to God for miracles and healing so that in itself will tell you if something is from God or not.

I have noticed that if it is counterfeit, it rarely lasts. They lose their healing or deliverance and are no better than when they started.

When you have prayed for a person for deliverance from an unwanted same sex attraction as I have and as a result they no longer have an unwanted same sex attraction, to say that it is satanic or counterfeit is to say the least the product of a deluded mind.

It is a bit like the homosexual militants who are adamant that you are born homosexual and when you ask them to prove it and they can't but they keep on saying that you are born homosexual. In other words, my mind is made up and nothing will make me change it.

Dodo_David · Dec 9, 2013

For the sake of further discussion, I have found 2 online reviews of MacArthur's new book Strange Fire (which was only recently published).

One review is by Dr. Thomas Schreiner, a professor at Southern Seminary in Louisville, KY.

The other review is by LaRosa Johnson, proprietor of the website Urban Scholar.

IanLC · Dec 12, 2013

John MacArthur has the Word and a measure of the Holy Spirit to interpret the Word. Where he fail is that he like many of us forget that God is a God of balance! He gives both the seed and the water! If the seed has not water it will not sprout if the water has no seed its useless. Thus we need both the Word and the Spirit! Truth and Spirit for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth who breathed forth Word and thus through all or learning and degrees of knowledge we need to prompting and guidance of the Holy Spirit our Counselor and Truth! For He is the Spirit of Jesus!

marksman · Dec 12, 2013

UHCAIan said:
John MacArthur has the Word and a measure of the Holy Spirit to interpret the Word. Where he fail is that he like many of us forget that God is a God of balance! He gives both the seed and the water! If the seed has not water it will not sprout if the water has no seed its useless. Thus we need both the Word and the Spirit! Truth and Spirit for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth who breathed forth Word and thus through all or learning and degrees of knowledge we need to prompting and guidance of the Holy Spirit our Counselor and Truth! For He is the Spirit of Jesus!

As I read your post Alan, it came to me that it is pride that says we don't need Holy Spirit power in our lives and activity. When pride takes over, we say all sorts of things that blinds us to the truth.

michaelvpardo · Dec 14, 2013

Dodo_David said:
For the sake of further discussion, I have found 2 online reviews of MacArthur's new book Strange Fire (which was only recently published).

One review is by Dr. Thomas Schreiner, a professor at Southern Seminary in Louisville, KY.

The other review is by LaRosa Johnson, proprietor of the website Urban Scholar.

Thanks for the references, but I haven't read the book (and don't intend to do so), but was more concerned with statements made at the Strange Fire conference and aired on "Grace to you," which I am in the habit of listening to when I'm assigned to do repairs in the shop at which I'm currently gainfully employed.
The same radio station that airs "Grace to you," airs another program shortly afterwards by a self proclaimed Christian activist who identifies himself as a charismatic believer and is currently in the process of releasing a book that is a charismatic's answer to MacArthur's book. Dr. Michael Brown of "the Line of fire" broadcast, simply wants to be recognized for his own scholarly approach to scripture and honest handling of it with regard to the charismatic gifts. As a theologian, I believe that the man just wants to be recognized as a peer by J.M., but considering the attitude that was evident in the Strange Fire conference broadcasts, I would prefer to distance myself from such arrogant men. Perhaps the Lord is only intending to give Dr. Brown some insight into how it feels to be treated as a false prophet, since he wrote a book about "hyper-grace" which has caused controversy and evil accusations against other brothers in the faith that are teaching the grace of God in accordance with their own understanding of it. The Lord did say that we would be judged by the same standards with which we judge others, and the Lord is nothing if not just.
Then again, there is always a purpose to such strife within the context of the church:
18. For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19. For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 1 Corinthians 11:18-19
We aren't a single congregation bodily upon this earth, yet we are a single body spiritually upon this earth, and mass media makes this more apparent as "the day" draws near.

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Strange fire conference: For God's glory or control

Dodo_David

Melmacian in human guise

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

Dodo_David

Melmacian in human guise

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

Arnie Manitoba

Well-Known Member

Dodo_David

Melmacian in human guise

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

Dodo_David

Melmacian in human guise

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

Dodo_David

Melmacian in human guise

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

Dodo_David

Melmacian in human guise

IanLC

Active Member

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member

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