The Third Woe

The Light · Mar 16, 2026

Ronald David Bruno said:
I am an adherent of the Mid-Trib/Pre-wrath view. How does that work?

Contrary to popular belief, the pre wrath view is actually post trib as the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God begins at the 7th seal.

Ronald David Bruno said:
You identified the last trumpet ( #7, in Rev. 11:15-19) where many events happen, when Jesus returns and we are raptured.

There is no rapture at the 7th trumpet. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

Ronald David Bruno said:
Yes, Jesus possesses His Kingdom throughout the world, which means the A tichrist's/ Satan's reign IS OVER. BUT THE WRATH IS NOT OVER. It is the worst part of the Great Tribulation, the finale.

You are very confused brother. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. and the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

The great tribulation is not the same thing as the wrath of God. The great tribulation is when Satan is killing those who do not take the mark. The wrath of God is when God punishes an evil and unbelieving world.

Ronald David Bruno said:
Seven bowls of Wrath are released. This does not last for 1 day. It is after the 1260 days but within that 1335. So the judgment of the bowls may last 40-75 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. DAN.12:12

The wrath of God lasts ONE YEAR. This means that Jesus does not return for Armageddon for one year. This means that the 7 trumpets last for one year. The seven vials occur is the same year as the 7 trumpets.

Ronald David Bruno said:
In Rev. 16:1-21, the seven angels are commanded to pour the seven bowls of wrath upon the earth. Sorry that does not last 1 day.

I know. The wrath of God lasts one year. But clarify it is one year before Jesus comes at Armageddon.

Ronald David Bruno said:
Is the command for the birds to feast for 1 day too ... "Hurry up little birdies ... gets your last meal" For what? Eat in the morning and die in the evening? I don't think the birds die after their feast. Jesus restores all animals who managed to survive to their intended state without the curse of sin; in harmony, non-predators, no prey, non- meat eaters. As Isaiah describes this harmony in the
Millennial Kingdom ( Isaiah 11:6-9)

The wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened. The wrath of God is one year before Armageddon. Armageddon is the day of the Lord. So the one day you are talking about is the Day of the Lord. This is when the armies of heaven follow Jesus to Armageddon.

Douggg · Mar 16, 2026

Ronald David Bruno said:
I did make a typo. But if you agree that these verses are towards end of the GT, you must realize the beginning of the chapter leads up to that point a d the dead from that outcome will be buried during the first 7 months of the Millennial Kingdom. But let's not go back and forth - we disagree - just leave it.

The beginning of Ezekiel 39, the destruction of Gog's armies, precedes the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9. The first 7 months of that 7 years, Israel spends burying the dead of Gog's armies.

At the end of the 7 years, Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Revelation 19:17-18 feast on the dead the day of Jesus's return.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus's return.

Trekson · Mar 16, 2026

The Light said:
Does the wheat harvest happen at Pentecost? No. Pentecost is the time of the barley harvest and the FIRST FRUITS of the wheat harvest.

The Feast of Trumpets is a fall fruit harvest. It is for the 12 tribes across the earth, seed of the woman.

The barley harvest was April-May and the wheat harvest was June-July so Pentecost is after the barley harvest and at the beginning of the wheat harvest.

Trekson · Mar 16, 2026

The Light said:
How do you come up with this. There is a period of 7 good years and 7 lean years for a total of 14 years.

Joseph saved grain from the good years so Egypt would have grain for the 7 bad years.

Of course they are not the same years. There are two seven year periods for a total of 14 years.

The whole point is that there are two different visions of the same timeframe. Just as in Revelation there are two different visions of Gods wrath. The vials DO NOT follow the trumpets. When the 7th trumpet sounds the wrath of God is over. Just as when the 7th vial is poured out the wrath of God is over.

Sorry, but the only thing scripture says or implies is that at the 7th trump, the wrath of the Lamb is over. God's wrath doesn't even begin until a little after Rev. 14:7 "for the hour of His (God's) judgment "is come". The phrase "is come" is used a few times in Rev. and it is in the present/future tense meaning it hasn't started yet but it's on the cusp of beginning, and it begins w/ Babylon, Rev. 14:17-20 and the rapture might be the harvest of Rev. 14:15-16.

The Light · Mar 16, 2026

Trekson said:
The barley harvest was April-May and the wheat harvest was June-July so Pentecost is after the barley harvest and at the beginning of the wheat harvest.

Pentecost is the barley harvest and also the first fruits of the wheat harvest. Wheat is harvested in the summer.

ewq1938 · Mar 16, 2026

Douggg said:
"are become" is correct

Yes it is but your interpretation of a process happening is not correct which is essentially an "are becoming". That is false. All kingdoms are Christ's immediately at the 7th trump.

The Light · Mar 16, 2026

Trekson said:
Sorry, but the only thing scripture says or implies is that at the 7th trump, the wrath of the Lamb is over.

Jesus is the Lamb. Jesus is God. It is Jesus that returns with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19 for Armageddon. So this wrath of the Lamb and wrath of God stuff is incorrect. I think Perry Stone started that be he could have just been repeating an error that he heard.

When the seventh angel sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord...................ARMAGEDDON IS OVER. The wrath of God, is over. Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is the time of reward and judgement.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

If you have read from Revelation 6 through Revelation 11, the story is complete. You are done. The story is over.

If you want more information about the 1st 6 seals which is Revelation 6, then read Revelation 13 and 14. If you want more information about Revelation 7 and the first part of Revelation 8 then read Revelation 15. If you want more information about the rest of Revelation 8 and Revelation 9-11 then read Revelation 16. It's as simple as that.

Trekson said:
God's wrath doesn't even begin until a little after Rev. 14:7 "for the hour of His (God's) judgment "is come". The phrase "is come" is used a few times in Rev. and it is in the present/future tense meaning it hasn't started yet but it's on the cusp of beginning, and it begins w/ Babylon,

Revelation 14:7 is about the judgement of Babylon. This occurs before the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. Gods wrath does not begin until the 7th seal.

Trekson said:
Rev. 14:17-20 and the rapture might be the harvest of Rev. 14:15-16.

Rev 14:15-16 is the second rapture. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest. The Church is already in heaven before this rapture occurs.

ewq1938 · Mar 17, 2026

The Light said:
When the seventh angel sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord...................ARMAGEDDON IS OVER.

Armageddon happens after the 7th trump sounds so it is not yet started at the 7th. The vials will pour one by one and the 6th vial is when they go to Arm. It starts soon after that, all being after the 7th has sounded.

Douggg · Mar 17, 2026

ewq1938 said:
Armageddon happens after the 7th trump sounds so it is not yet started at the 7th. The vials will pour one by one and the 6th vial is when they go to Arm. It starts soon after that, all being after the 7th has sounded.

Correct, but you have understand the sequence of events leading up to Armageddon of Revelation 16:16.

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

The 6th vial is poured out in Revelation 16:12 and the Euphrates river is dried up, allowing the kings of the east to proceed toward Israel... to attack the beast. The armies of the kings of the east will number 200,000,000. On their way, their armies will kill a third of mankind, mostly of India's population, fulfilling the second woe described in Revelation 9. The second woe placement is shown on my chart down below.

The battles against the beast described in Daniel 11:40-45 will then ensue. As the battles are taking place, suddenly the sixth seal event will take place, and the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven - Jesus, sickle in hand.

In light of the bigger threat, the kings of the earth will stop their attacks on the beast, and will unite under his leadership -inspired by the convincing talk of the beast, the false prophet, and Satan (indwelling the speaking statue image of the beast).

The convincing is in Revelation 16:13-14....

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The sudden appearing of Jesus, in heaven, as seen from the earth, is in Revelation 16:15....

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Jesus's appearance in heaven, as seen from the earth, will cause the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon in Revelation 16:16....

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The gathering and preparation to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven will then take place over the next 45 days.

Trekson · Mar 17, 2026

The Light said:
Jesus is the Lamb. Jesus is God. It is Jesus that returns with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19 for Armageddon. So this wrath of the Lamb and wrath of God stuff is incorrect. I think Perry Stone started that be he could have just been repeating an error that he heard.

When the seventh angel sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord...................ARMAGEDDON IS OVER. The wrath of God, is over. Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is the time of reward and judgement.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

If you have read from Revelation 6 through Revelation 11, the story is complete. You are done. The story is over.

If you want more information about the 1st 6 seals which is Revelation 6, then read Revelation 13 and 14. If you want more information about Revelation 7 and the first part of Revelation 8 then read Revelation 15. If you want more information about the rest of Revelation 8 and Revelation 9-11 then read Revelation 16. It's as simple as that.

Revelation 14:7 is about the judgement of Babylon. This occurs before the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. Gods wrath does not begin until the 7th seal.

Rev 14:15-16 is the second rapture. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest. The Church is already in heaven before this rapture occurs.

The bible separates them w/ different descriptions, so should we and stop trying to lump everything into a fulfillment bucket where they don't belong. Are you unfamiliar w/ the concept of speaking forward in Faith? No, it's not over in cp. 11, it's only half over. When the bible uses the word "God" 99% of the time it is speaking of the Father.

Ronald David Bruno · Mar 17, 2026

The Light said:
There is no rapture at the 7th trumpet. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

That's what you think. Look at all that happens at the 7th trumpet (Rev. 10:7; 11:15-19)
1. Kingdoms of the world become our Lords
2. Praise and thanksgiving from elders
3. Wrath comes in the 7 Bowls released
4. Temple of God is opened in Heaven
5. Rewards are given
6. Dead are judged
7. Lightnings, Thunder, great hail
8. Mystery of God is revealed/ finished

The Light said:
The great tribulation is not the same thing as the wrath of God.

It's all inclusive, a time period of 1335 days. 1260 of which the Antichrist is in control, then Jesus shows up.

The Light said:
The wrath of God lasts ONE YEAR. This means that Jesus does not return for Armageddon for one year. This means that the 7 trumpets last for one year. The seven vials occur is the same year as the 7 trumpets.

Technically the whole Great Tribulation is part of His wrath - it's judgment. But at the time of the last ( 7th) trumpet is blown, the seven bowls of God's wrath are released - much more intense after the Church is gone - all he'll breaks loose.

The Light said:
The wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened. The wrath of God is one year before Armageddon.

Well, I have a different view on that. When Jesus ascended 2000 Years ago, He was handed the scroll at that time. He removed the seals and.opened it!. How else could we know what was inside? It is just a scroll filled with orders that would be carried out at a later time, like a play written. The play doesn't start until the stage is set and actors are ready. John is shown what each seal means. Read it. With each seal _ as it's opened _ the angel says, "Come and see" what this represents... at a future time. So the angel shows him visions of the future.
The GT actually starts when the trumpets star to blow. The trumpets and bowls fall within the seals.
The scroll is like a transparent sphere of events that overlap and are accumulative. As you turn the sphere, you see events within that line up like different vantage points. God can only show us and describe one thing at a one, but many things are happening simultaneously - which is why it is confusing. It is not chronologically happening one at a time as shown - it can't possibly work that way since by the 7th seal, the earth looks like it should be totally devastated, with most of the people dead yet still more to come in the trumpets and bowls events?
Likely the trumpets are blown rapidly and events coincide and overlap. John is show. What each one represents. Can so.eone explain to what is happening on the entire planet at once? No, we have to be shown what each separate event is then taken to another.
>>> But you go abead and have it your way - however you want to see it and understand it. No need to squabble about it.

ewq1938 · Mar 17, 2026

Douggg said:
The sudden appearing of Jesus, in heaven, as seen from the earth, is in Revelation 16:15....

That verse is a warning about the second coming/an aside in the narrative, not the actual coming happening right then. The Ac and armies have not seen Jesus yet when they go to Armageddon. He is first seen in Rev 19 when they are already at that place.

ewq1938 · Mar 17, 2026

Trekson said:
When the bible uses the word "God" 99% of the time it is speaking of the Father.

True. It is short for "God the Father" and often Jesus is mentioned in the same passage but never is it intended to deny Jesus is God (God the Son).

Douggg · Mar 17, 2026

ewq1938 said:
The Ac and armies have not seen Jesus yet when they go to Armageddon. He is first seen in Rev 19 when they are already at that place.

The entire world will see Jesus in heaven, sickle in hand - 45 days before His descent to earth in Revelation 19.

Seeing Jesus in heaven sickle in hand will be the cause for the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven.

sing of the Son of Man in Heaven small size.jpg

ewq1938 · Mar 17, 2026

Douggg said:
Seeing Jesus in heaven sickle in hand will be the cause for the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven.

That's not what the bible says about it tho. It says the 6th vial pours and that is what causes them to go to Armageddon for the battle. There is nothing about them seeing Jesus and that's what makes them go there.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Douggg · Mar 17, 2026

ewq1938 said:
It says the 6th vial pours and that is what causes them to go to Armageddon for the battle.

You skipped over everything between Revelation 16:12-16.. A vial being poured out itself does not cause the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon.

There will be a sequence of events that will take place between Revelation 16:12 and Revelation 16:16. I went over that series of events in my post #249.

Trekson · Mar 17, 2026

ewq1938 said:
True. It is short for "God the Father" and often Jesus is mentioned in the same passage but never is it intended to deny Jesus is God (God the Son).

Never said it does.

ewq1938 · Mar 17, 2026

Douggg said:
You skipped over everything between Revelation 16:12-16.. A vial being poured out itself does not cause the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon.

The verses posted prove otherwise and prove they do not gather due to seeing Jesus.

ewq1938 · Mar 17, 2026

Trekson said:
Never said it does.

I was just speaking to all on the subject.

Douggg · Mar 18, 2026

ewq1938 said:
The verses posted prove otherwise and prove they do not gather due to seeing Jesus.

The verses in Revelation 16:12-16 don't say that the kings of the earth don't see Jesus before gathering their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven. You have not explained the content of Revelation:16:12-16 verse by verse. My post #249, I explain the content of Revelation 16:12-16 verse by verse.

You also don't make time line charts of events.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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