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Not all passages related to the 2nd woe contain the same exact wording. Rev 11 is firmly set in the 2nd woe.
The Third Woe
- Thread starter Trekson
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Not all passages related to the 2nd woe contain the same exact wording. Rev 11 is firmly set in the 2nd woe.
The portion of Revelation 11 that is about the two witnesses's activity and their leaving this world does not contain anything referring to a third of men killed by an army of 200,000,000.
The only verse in Revelation 11 containing a reference to the second woe is in Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
The phrase "is past" does not mean fulfilled, but means already explained to the reader of Revelation what the second woe will be. Verse 14 alerts the reader of Revelation that it would soon be explained what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be. Which it does in Revelation 12:12.
I would say since it is a prophecy, when it is says it is past that is just what it means in the context of the prophecy which is why 'all" the trumpet judgments will be fulfilled by the middle of the week as the third woe leaves satan w/ 42 months to do his thing. The theology that believes the 6th seal = the 6th trump = the 6th vial, etc. is just plain wrong.
What I think is probably likely. The 6th seal=the 7th trumpet=the last 7 vials of wrath. The 5th seal=the 42 month reign of the beast. Therefore, the 42 month reign can't be after the 6th seal, which then means neither can trumpet 1 followed by trumpet 2, etc, be after the 6th seal. IOW, all 7 trumpets involve the time of the 6 seals.
There is no such thing as the 42 month reign of the beast beginning during the 7th trumpet. Compare with Matthew 24, for example.
A) Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
(Parenthetical) 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
B) 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
C) 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Great tribulation, IOW, the 42 month reign of the beast, thus the time of the little season per the 5th seal, fits all of A).
The beginning of the day of the Lord, thus the 6th seal, fits B)
The 2nd coming and the rapture that follows after great tribulation, thus a Pretrib rapture is a lie, fits all of C).
Obviously then, the book of Revelation is not chronological throughout.
If the 5th seal is the 42-month reign, the trumpets must occur during the time of the seals, not after the 6th seal. Chronology matters. After all, undeniably, the 5th seal is involving the 42 month reign of the beast. And that we already know the beast reigns during the 6th trumpet and not the 7th trumpet. No way can Matthew 24:15-26 be meaning the time of the 7th trumpet
Am meaning the following in general, thus applicable to anyone who is understanding anything correctly. So, assuming one is understanding some of the Bible correctly, guess what? One didn't first need charts to understand what they understand. They were able to understand from written words alone.
Take my post you were addressing. For example, Matthew 24:15-27 and then comparing with Revelation. Though, Preterists and those that align with Preterist thinking disagree, the little season per the 5th seal is one thing that explains those verses. Not the only thing, yet one of the things that do.
And note that that little season can't get fulfilled unless it first involves the beast that ascends out of the sea, another out of the earth(thus Revelation 13).
Also take note that trumpet 1 and vial 1, followed by trumpet 2 and vial 2, so on and so on, is illogical. For example, vial 1 involves being poured out upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. God is not going to be pouring out vials of wrath on men who are not even doing those things yet.
The point being, wherever one places the first trumpet, and if they also place the first vial during the time of the first trumpet, they then have to place all of Revelation 13 before the time of the first trumpet. Which is absurd, the fact we already know the 6th trumpet is eventually involving the beast connected with Revelation 13.
I tend to look at the seals as an outline of events, so to speak. And when we get to the time of the 6th seal, we are closing in on the literal end of this age, and that the 42 month reign is then in the past, and that the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, begins.
Plus, I also tend to think it is the 2ws unleashing the plagues involving the trumpets.
Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Compare with the following, for example.
Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
It clearly calls these events plagues(verse 20, for example), and that Revelation 11:6 plainly states---and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
So, when are some others also going to get around to connecting some of these dots?
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The bible doesn't tell us how long the GT will be and Rev. 13:7 does not lead directly into vs. 10. Vs. 8-9 is in between, thus only part of that time will be persecuting the church and most of that will be done by his minions. He's got a whole lot he wants to accomplish in those 42 months and persecuting the church is only a 'small" part of that, it's not his main goal.
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Strawman fallacy.
LOL, that's how we know part of Rev 11 is the 2nd woe.
That's wrong.
No, John was there in the future and saw the evnts happening and saw the 2nd woe get fulfilled.
The 3rd woe is not in Rev 12. The highest possible woe might be the 1st because the 2nd woe starts in Rev 13, and it's end is in Rev 11 where we see the final woe trump sound. Rev 12 covers the birth of Jesus and goes right before the 2nd woe.
Then show on a time line chart where the Satan's wrath of a time/times/half time fits.
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Charts are almost always a disaster. The actual scriptures are superior but there is nothing in Rev called, "Satan's wrath of a time/times/half time". The closest match is the 42 months of Rev 13 based on the war of his wrath mentioned in the last verse of Rev 12.
The way you are reasoning some of these things is pretty much the same as how some reason the trumpets and vials. That because both might have some things in common, this means when trumpet 1 sounds and before trumpet 2 sounds, vial 1 is unleashed first. Then when trumpet 2 sounds and before trumpet 3 sounds, vial 2 is unleashed next. So on and so on. Except that can't be correct because the vials are the wrath of God, thus the DOTL. And that the DOTL, according to Matthew 24, for one, is after great tribulation. Matthew 24:29 makes that crystal clear.
I tend to think Matthew 24:29 involves either 45 or 75 days, depending on how you look at it. And if correct, this alone proves that none of the 6 trumpets can be involving the wrath of God, thus the DOTL.
For example, trumpet 5. It involves being tormented 150 days. And that you can't fit 150 days into 75 days nor 45 days. Where I'm coming up with 45 or 75 days is being based on Daniel 12 and the 1335th day. From 1260 days to 1335 days involve 75 days. From 1290 days to 1335 days involve 45 days. Either way, I tend to think that that is what Matthew 24:29 is involving. Either 45 days or 75 days. That the DOTL involves either 45 or 75 days, day 1335 being the final day of this age. Day 1335 meaning when Daniel stands in his lot at the end of the days. Where the resurrection per Daniel 12:2 explains how.
Except Pretribbers apparently have Daniel's resurrection meaning when the alleged rapture occurs prior to great trib. After all, per 1 Thessalonians 4, a resurrection of the saved dead precedes the rapture of the living still alive on earth. And that Daniel is obviously among the saved. Yet Daniel 12 shows that verse 2 can't even occur until after the unequaled time of trouble involving verse 1 and the 1290 days, is past first.
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Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
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@ewq1938 show on a time line chart where Satan's wrath of a time/times/half time fits. As I did here...
One thing I find annoying about charts like this, is this. Let's say there is a block of text in your chart one wants to bring attention to. But because it is an image file, one can't copy then paste any text from your chart., obviously They have to type it out by hand. If you at least made your charts formatting with BB code instead, this little inconvenience goes away altogether.
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He tries to attack her but cannot. His wrath is only allowed to be successful in Rev 13, based on the last verse of Rev 12.
No, I don't think that.
The first four trumpet plagues are described (in Revelation 8) as...
1. a third of the trees and all the green grass burnt up
2. a third of the sea became as blood, as a third of the creatures in the sea dies, and a third of ships destroyed
3. a third of the fresh waters became poison by a falling star called Wormwood.
4. a third of the sun, a third of the moon. a third of the stars, as a third of days became darkened
(notice the third aspect in all of those plagues)
Next....
The last three trumpet plagues are special (woe to the inhabiters of the earth) are described as...
5. 5 months of torment by locust creatures. (Revelation 9:2-11)
6. a third of mankind killed by an army numbering 200,000,000 (Revelation 9:13-21)
7. Satan's wrath spanning a time/times/half time (Revelation 12:12-14)
The latter part of the time/times/half time of Satan's wrath is when the vials of God's wrath will poured out. Some of the vials intensifying the third aspect of the first four trumpet plagues.
1. sores breaking out on the men which had the mark of the beast, and who worshiped his image.
2. the became as blood, and every creature in the sea died. (an intensification of trumpet plague 2 above)
3. the rivers and springs became blood (an intensification of trumpet plague 3 above)
5. the sun scorched men with great heat.
6. the Euphrates river dried up, so the kings of the east would march toward Israel (their armies numbering 200,000,000 to kill a third of men on their way - the second woe)
7. unprecedented hail falling upon the earth, destroying every island, and crushing mountains.
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What you can do is left click on the chart. That will open it in a window. Then you can right click on the chart, and "take a screen shot" of whatever portion of the chart you want to talk about. And paste the screen shot in your post.
I save my charts in the JPEG format for posting. I am not going to change.
You can make your charts anyway you want. Just show where Satan's wrath of a time/times/half time fits.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Who should we assume is meaning the woman here? Some propose that the woman is meaning the church. But how can the woman be meaning the church when it is already crystal clear, well maybe to everyone but Pretribbers, that the following is meaning the church? the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If we make both the woman and the remnant of her seed to be meaning the church, it then paints a picture of God playing favs within the church, thus the body of Christ. That some within the body of Christ are more special to God than others in this some body are to God.
Some get to escape satan's time of wrath altogether. While others have to face it head on. The very same things most of us complain about in regard to Pretrib theology. That Pretribbers envision themselves being more special to God than others are. Therefore, they get to escape great tribulation altogether but anyone left behind doesn't get to escape it. Therefore, in my mind, per some of these same reasons alone, the woman and the remnant of her seed can't be meaning the same group of people.
You keep talking about purchasing an app such as PSP to make charts. Yet, I bet one can simply log into chatgpt, show it an image of one of your charts, then ask it to build an app that can make charts similar to your style of charts Then not even 5 minutes later Chatgpt has built such an app and it didn't cost a dime. There are other AIs that can build apps for free as well. And that they can build them from scratch. I'm not saying the app might end up being just as good or maybe even better than PSP, but if it can make charts similar to the ones you typically make, that is what counts.
No, they are not going to make an app that makes charts like mine. Using the Corel Photoshop 2023 Ulitmate, a person must learn how to make layers., and manipulate the layers.
The lines on my charts, for exampe, start out as rectangular shaped layers, when are manipulated to become long narrow lines, that can be stretched/shortened/colored. I have been using the PSP program for many years. There is a learning curve involved, but once a person gets familiar with the program, then it becomes easy, as far as, illustrations such as charts are concerned.
This is an illustration, I made using the PSP program...
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