Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

Trekson said:

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

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Yes. We are here until the end. Dispensationalism, Christian Zionism and judaism serve one entity/ movement that would teach otherwise.
The two witnesses are spiritually killed....their testimony in Christ is no longer heard when Satan has full control over the world's religions, Christianity especially. But for the sake of the elect ( all chosen to salvation alive at that time) those days will be shortened. And the " two witnesses" will be caught up to God on the resurrection of the last day. " Three days and a half" ( Revelation 11:3) is the shortened period of time in the Great Tribulation. I believe it to be five months, in accordance to Revelation 9:5 and Genesis 7:24.

WPM said:

What are you talking about? There is only one people of God. There is no apartheid amongst the people of God.

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Yes, there is only “one people of God”, but like the arrangement in ancient Israel, God appointed teachers and priests for his people.....that is not apartheid.....it is simply different appointments of service to guide and direct his people in true worship. Why was that necessary? To prevent what we see in Christendom...division and confusion. Without direction, humans do not manage their own lives successfully....anarchy is prevented by the control of a central governing body of the people. Isn’t that how the world is run.....who wants to live where there is no enforced direction?

WPM said:

When Jesus come we populate the new eternal regenerated earth. Simple!

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Jesus’ return was to be observed in two separate ways, and at different times...the first (his parousia, or presence) was to be discerned by the “signs” he gave (Matt 24:3) to establish that he had returned “in the same manner as he left”.....the world at large was not aware that it happened....only Christ’s closest associates witnessed it. He has been here for some time already.....world events signalled it. (Matt 24:3-14)

But his “coming” as judge and executioner was to be something that the world could not mistake.
By not observing the word, you missed his arrival, as he has been quietly “separating sheep from the goats” ever since then. When he manifests as judge...it’s all over red rover.....the goats can “but” all they want but it will be too late. (Matt 7:21-23)

Aunty Jane said:

Yes, there is only “one people of God”, but like the arrangement in ancient Israel, God appointed teachers and priests for his people.....that is not apartheid.....it is simply different appointments of service to guide and direct his people in true worship. Why was that necessary? To prevent what we see in Christendom...division and confusion. Without direction, humans do not manage their own lives successfully....anarchy is prevented by the control of a central governing body of the people. Isn’t that how the world is run.....who wants to live where there is no enforced direction?

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Says who? This is all extra biblical speculation. There is only one people of God who are undivided. Where does it teach a separation of eternal locations? You seem to make it up as you go.

Aunty Jane said:

Jesus’ return was to be observed in two separate ways, and at different times...the first (his parousia, or presence) was to be discerned by the “signs” he gave (Matt 24:3) to establish that he had returned “in the same manner as he left”.....the world at large was not aware that it happened....only Christ’s closest associates witnessed it. He has been here for some time already.....world events signalled it. (Matt 24:3-14)

But his “coming” as judge and executioner was to be something that the world could not mistake.
By not observing the word, you missed his arrival, as he has been quietly “separating sheep from the goats” ever since then. When he manifests as judge...it’s all over red rover.....the goats can “but” all they want but it will be too late. (Matt 7:21-23)

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There is only one future climatic coming. Where does it teach 2 coming? You seem to have a problem with double vision.

Trekson said:

the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs

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Would you consider "post-wrath" in this discussion?

If not, I'll say no more...

WPM said:

What are you talking about? There is only one people of God. There is no apartheid amongst the people of God. When Jesus come we populate the new eternal regenerated earth. Simple!

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Actually, if you would please read Matthew 25:31-40, you will notice two groups that have Jesus' approval: the sheep, and His brothers.

Explaining the difference between these two groups, is not too difficult.

WPM said:

Says who? This is all extra biblical speculation. There is only one people of God who are undivided. Where does it teach a separation of eternal locations? You seem to make it up as you go.

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Alluding to Israel’s arrangement for worship being carried over into Christ’s teachings is hardly speculation….it is natural as he was Jewish and was raised with God’s word, and Temple worship.

The Bible says Yahweh is “not a god of disorder” but you could not say that there is order in Christendom.
It is a divided mess.

WPM said:

There is only one future climatic coming. Where does it teach 2 coming?

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True, there is “one future climactic coming”.…..but you missed the first part…..there are not two comings…..Jesus arrived quietly, unannounced (his “parousia”)…..but he leaves loudly, having carried out the foretold sentence against the “goats”, and to gather the remaining ones of his elect, and take them to heaven…..beginning a thousand years of recovery and peace under the best rulership human beings have ever had.

Trekson said:

You'd have to explain it a bit. My belief, post-persecution is one folks don't seem to readily accept. I will say this, I don't believe 1 Thess. 5:9 is talking about 'end times" wrath. It's talking about 'eternal" wrath contrasted against eternal salvation. This is the same way it's spoken of in Rom. 5:9.

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Thanks for your reply.

You've offered what you believe and provided verses to support your view, with which you seem to confidently embrace. With that, any explanation by me would contrast with what you've stated, and would then be perceived as a challenge to debate, and that would be contrary to my intent, purpose, and nature.

If this topic is for debate only, I unfortunately missed that, and will promptly excuse myself from further interaction.

TazzJazz said:

Actually, if you would please read Matthew 25:31-40, you will notice two groups that have Jesus' approval: the sheep, and His brothers.

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That's not two separate groups. The least of these who are His brothers are among His sheep. His sheep refer to those who belong to Him (John 10). Jesus said: "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” (Matthew 12:50). So, all believers, including the least of these His brothers, are His sheep.

TazzJazz said:

Explaining the difference between these two groups, is not too difficult.

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Okay, let's see your explanation then.

Aunty Jane said:

Alluding to Israel’s arrangement for worship being carried over into Christ’s teachings is hardly speculation….it is natural as he was Jewish and was raised with God’s word, and Temple worship.

The Bible says Yahweh is “not a god of disorder” but you could not say that there is order in Christendom.
It is a divided mess.

True, there is “one future climactic coming”.…..but you missed the first part…..there are not two comings…..Jesus arrived quietly, unannounced (his “parousia”)…..but he leaves loudly, having carried out the foretold sentence against the “goats”, and to gather the remaining ones of his elect, and take them to heaven…..beginning a thousand years of recovery and peace under the best rulership human beings have ever had.

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That's a false Jehovah's Witnesses teaching. Jesus's parousia has not yet occurred. The following passage refers to Christ's parousia, which will happen at the same time as His "one future climactic coming".

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming (parousia) of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Paul taught that when Christ's parousia (translated as "coming" in 1 Thess 4:15) occurs, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. That absolutely has not yet occurred. On that same day, Paul taught that "sudden destruction" will come upon those in spiritual darknesss from which "they shall not escape". And he said that day will not overtake believers as a thief because believers will instead be safely caught up to meet the Lord in the air on that day.

It's the same day Paul wrote about here...

2 Thessalonians 1:7 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

TazzJazz said:

Actually, if you would please read Matthew 25:31-40, you will notice two groups that have Jesus' approval: the sheep, and His brothers.

Explaining the difference between these two groups, is not too difficult.

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He has made both one. Stop dividing the ppl of God.

Spiritual Israelite said:

That's a false Jehovah's Witnesses teaching. Jesus's parousia has not yet occurred. The following passage refers to Christ's parousia, which will happen at the same time as His "one future climactic coming".

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming (parousia) of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

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What are you missing here? A timeframe.
Who said that Jesus’ return (his parousia) was an event that is witnessed by the world? Who said that the resurrection of the saints is a visible event? Who witnessed Jesus resurrection? No one....they simply saw him manifested in a human body which was not always recognisable.

The “first resurrection” takes place in the spirit realm, unseen to human eyes. (Rev 20:6)
If Jesus is already here and has been for some time, what has he been doing? First of all he raised his elect who have been “sleeping” in their graves all these centuries, and those who die subsequently during this period, do not need to sleep in death, but upon their physical death are raised instantaneously during his parousia. This is so that the Kingdom, already established in heaven, is ready to go when the final battle takes place....the transfer of rulership will be seamless.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Paul taught that when Christ's parousia (translated as "coming" in 1 Thess 4:15) occurs, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. That absolutely has not yet occurred.

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It has, and Jesus has been here “separating the sheep from the goats” ever since. It is at the end of this period that the judgment comes.
His “parousia” is at the beginning of the last days....but his “coming” (erchomai) as judge and executioner is at the end of this period. Two different words with two different meanings.
Translating “parousia” as “coming” is a false and misleading translation. Someone can be present even if you didn’t seen them arrive. Christ will manifest himself as God’s appointed judge when the last days are completed.

Jesus has also been directing the preaching work that he assigned to his disciples, which was to continue to the end of the age. (Matt 28:18-20; Matt 24:14) He promised to be with them in that endeavour. And they could expect a similar situation to what occurred in Noah’s day.....(Matt 24:37-39) How many listened to Noah’s warning about God’s intentions?

Spiritual Israelite said:

On that same day, Paul taught that "sudden destruction" will come upon those in spiritual darknesss from which "they shall not escape". And he said that day will not overtake believers as a thief because believers will instead be safely caught up to meet the Lord in the air on that day.

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That only applies to the elect.....there are other Christians who are not chosen for rulership positions who will survive Armageddon as “a great multitude”, seen grateful acknowledging their salvation through Christ’s sacrifice. (Rev 7: 9-10; 13-14)

Spiritual Israelite said:

It's the same day Paul wrote about here...

2 Thessalonians 1:7 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

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Read it again....where does it say “the same day”? When “the Lord Jesus is “revealed” from heaven with his mighty angels” which revelation takes place at the end of the last days...the culmination of their completion, having “separated the sheep from the goats” and directed his disciples in the “preaching of the Kingdom”....all will have been given ample opportunity to come to a knowledge of the truth....and mankind are either rewarded for faithfulness and obedience, or removed from existence because they were too stubborn to want to learn the truth.

This is who Paul is speaking about...”those who do not know God” because they don’t want to know him....”and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”....are those who do know about God and his Christ, but do not obey his directives....those who refuse to be corrected......isn’t that what undid the Pharisees? They could not be corrected. Whose “testimony” convicted them? Whose testimony convicts those in today’s world, who do the same thing?

Aunty Jane said:

What are you missing here?

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Nothing.

Aunty Jane said:

A timeframe.

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That you insert into the text?

Aunty Jane said:

Who said that Jesus’ return (his parousia) was an event that is witnessed by the world?

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What difference does it make if the world can see us being caught up to Christ or not? That's beside the point.

Aunty Jane said:

Who said that the resurrection of the saints is a visible event? Who witnessed Jesus resurrection? No one....they simply saw him manifested in a human body which was not always recognisable.

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Can you try actually addressing the points I made? I'm saying that the dead in Christ will all be resurrected at the same time and bodily caught up to meet Christ in the air at the same time. You deny that.

Aunty Jane said:

The “first resurrection” takes place in the spirit realm, unseen to human eyes. (Rev 20:6)

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The first resurrection was Christ's resurrection, so that is not what 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is about.

Acts 26:23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

Aunty Jane said:

If Jesus is already here and has been for some time, what has he been doing? First of all he raised his elect who have been “sleeping” in their graves all these centuries, and those who die subsequently during this period, do not need to sleep in death, but upon their physical death are raised instantaneously during his parousia.

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This is nonsense. Paul clearly portrayed all of the dead in Christ as being resurrected at the same time and then being caught up together with those who are alive and remain until the pariousia of Christ at the same time to meet the Lord in the air after He descends from heaven. In no way, shape or form did Paul describe an ongoing event in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Until you understand that, you just aren't going to get it. I know it's hopeless to get through to someone who has been brainwashed by the Jehovah's Witnesses religion unless they become willing to consider other views, so I'm not going to waste any more time on this with you.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Paul clearly portrayed all of the dead in Christ as being resurrected at the same time and then being caught up together with those who are alive and remain until the pariousia of Christ at the same time to meet the Lord in the air after He descends from heaven. In no way, shape or form did Paul describe an ongoing event in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

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That’s the way you wish to read it...so be it. Your choice, but the limitations you place on these things is not in the Scripture you refer to. They are not all raised at the same time but in the same timeframe encompassed by “the time of the end”...Christ’s “parousia”...which is the prelude to his “coming” or “manifestation” as judge.

Spiritual Israelite said:

Until you understand that, you just aren't going to get it. I know it's hopeless to get through to someone who has been brainwashed by the Jehovah's Witnesses religion unless they become willing to consider other views, so I'm not going to waste any more time on this with you.

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Who brainwashed you? And whose truth do you subscribe to as part of the divided churches of Christendom?

I don’t want to wast time either, so I am happy to leave what I have written for others to compare.

Aunty Jane said:

That’s the way you wish to read it...so be it.

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You're completely incapable of refuting how I read it. I go by what the text actually says, unlike yourself. Paul clearly portrayed the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain until Christ's parosia as being caught up together at the same time to meet the Lord in the air after He descends from heaven. If you can't even understand clear, straightforward scripture like this, what can you understand in scripture? Maybe nothing?

Aunty Jane said:

Your choice, but the limitations you place on these things is not in the Scripture you refer to. They are not all raised at the same time but in the same timeframe encompassed by “the time of the end”...Christ’s “parousia”...which is the prelude to his “coming” or “manifestation” as judge.

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Show me in the text itself where you are seeing this. It's not there. You are just making things up.

Aunty Jane said:

Who brainwashed you?

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No one. I'm not part of any religion that tries to tell people what they should believe like you are.

Aunty Jane said:

And whose truth do you subscribe to as part of the divided churches of Christendom?

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The truth found in the Bible as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Aunty Jane said:

I don’t want to wast time either, so I am happy to leave what I have written for others to compare.

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I'm very happy to do that, as I am very confident that those with discernment can see the many errors in your beliefs.

Spiritual Israelite said:

That's not two separate groups. The least of these who are His brothers are among His sheep.

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Yes, His brothers are sheeplike; they follow Him, too.

But at Matthew 25:31-40, Jesus differentiated between the two groups, not me. At John 10:16, Jesus said, "I have other sheep which are not of this fold (the fold which are His brothers); those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they must become one flock one Shepherd."

Simply put, Christ's brothers are those chosen to rule with Jesus in God's Kingdom, associate Kings and priests. But not everyone can be a king (a chosen one)..... Most of Christ's sheep, the ones of Matthew 25, will be subjects of that Kingdom (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9,10), enjoying the benefits of Jesus' Kingdom rule over a paradise Earth.