Symbolism

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Ronald D Milam

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I think it's much more simpler and less prone to error if we just believe it as written. When symbolism is used it's quite easy to understand w/o resorting to OT numerology. In Rev. there is far more literal truth then there is symbolism.
Do not call God use of numbers numerology. Good grief man. Are there only 10 virgin brides? In old Hebrew they had like 4000 words, we have 500,000 today. God used words and the same word might have 50 meanings, you have to figure it out by reading the context.

The word used for Day YOWM is used more for day than for any other time frame, but YOWM does not mean day, it means a TIME PERIOD then we have to figure the time period out by looking at the clues. When I see people who really think the universe was created in 6 days and not 6 YOWMS (Time Periods) I shake my head. God gives common sense and all the answers, we are the ones who have trouble taking it all in.

We see light from stars billions of light years away. But we can not see, in many cases, the universe is 13.7 billion years old. God lives in all eternity at once, he does not seed to speed anything up, He created the laws of nature for us. He didn't change them up to speed things up.

I explain he whole book of Revelation in one post, it is not a secret to me
 

Trekson

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Do not call God use of numbers numerology. Good grief man. Are there only 10 virgin brides? In old Hebrew they had like 4000 words, we have 500,000 today. God used words and the same word might have 50 meanings, you have to figure it out by reading the context.

The word used for Day YOWM is used more for day than for any other time frame, but YOWM does not mean day, it means a TIME PERIOD then we have to figure the time period out by looking at the clues. When I see people who really think the universe was created in 6 days and not 6 YOWMS (Time Periods) I shake my head. God gives common sense and all the answers, we are the ones who have trouble taking it all in.

We see light from stars billions of light years away. But we can not see, in many cases, the universe is 13.7 billion years old. God lives in all eternity at once, he does not seed to speed anything up, He created the laws of nature for us. He didn't change them up to speed things up.

I explain he whole book of Revelation in one post, it is not a secret to me
I actually mostly agree w/ you but since God is eternal, that means an eternal past as well as a future. If you are trying to understand Rev. in a mostly symbolic way, then yes it is still a mystery to you, you just don't know it.
 

ScottA

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No that is truth.

Please do. I have read many of your posts to many people here. You have a very condescending spirit about you.

And this word salad has nothing to do with me knowing the Holy Spirit speaks to men. He qoutes SCripture and teaches us the word, not your personal "higher spiritual meanings" like Charles Russel, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Jim Jones et. al.
Your posts have demonstrated a clear pattern of promoting false and defamatory statements against me, labeling me a heretic based solely on personal opinion rather than fact. My testimony is biblical, a position substantiated by my published works. Your position is legally indefensible. Please be advised that these malicious accusations constitute libel, and I am prepared to hold you and Christianity Board accountable for this damage to my reputation.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Your posts have demonstrated a clear pattern of promoting false and defamatory statements against me, labeling me a heretic based solely on personal opinion rather than fact. My testimony is biblical, a position substantiated by my published works. Your position is legally indefensible. Please be advised that these malicious accusations constitute libel, and I am prepared to hold you and Christianity Board accountable for this damage to my reputation.
No your testimony has not been tested by biblical means. You intentionally remain vague and will not specifically list what your "higher spiritual meanings" have revealed nor what supposedly god showed you from Johns little book.

As for your "higher spiritual meaning". Because you have declared plainly that the Inspired written word is somehow severely lacking for full maturity, yes you are a heretic and promoting self as a means of people getting to know god.

Well your position may be substantiated by your published works, but if your published works are like your answers on this particular thread, no one with a spiritual IQ above 2 could possible call them biblical.

YOu can hold me accountable all you wish. This Jesus and teh Apostles never did. A brother taking another brother to court. Paul condemned it. but that is in the written word and I am sure your "higher spiritual meanings" have redefined Pauls words .

I can back all my positions and the few accusations I have made against you by the bible!

f you choose legal action, you just once again why you are way off on a non biblical tangent with youyr feelings and "higher spiritual meanings".
 

Ronald D Milam

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I actually mostly agree w/ you but since God is eternal, that means an eternal past as well as a future. If you are trying to understand Rev. in a mostly symbolic way, then yes it is still a mystery to you, you just don't know it.
The very first verse tells us God the Father gave the book of Revelation to His son Jesus, who gave it to John his servant via dreams/visions and verbal messages from Angels.

The reason most people can’t not understand the Book of Revelation (BoR) is they do not understand it is encoded with Old Testament (O.T.) lingo, in other words if you do not understand the OT you will not be able to grasp the BoR. God says its a blessing to read because God wrote it.

We get an overview in Revelation 1 and are told about three different things going on in the BoR, the “Things which you have seen” (Jesus in all of his glory), the “Things which are” (Church Age period) and finally we are told about the “Things to come” (after the Church Age or DURING the 70th week troubles known as Jacob’s Troubles).

Rev. 1 is an overview & the Eternal Godhead. Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age, from Jesus' death to the Pre Trib. Rapture which we can see in Rev. 4:1, thus Rev. 3 ends the Church Age. The number 7 means divine completion, thus the 7 churches represent the whole church age period. In there Jesus admonishes and praises different type churches. Jesus tells the church of Smyrna that they will have tribulation for 10 days, but the number 10 just means completion, thus for the complete church age the church will have tribulation in this world, because Satan is the god of this evil world. He told Jesus in Luke 4 that all of these kingdoms were his to do as he pleased with and that if he would just bow down and worship him he would give them all unto him. In John 16:33 Jesus said that in this world you will always have tribulation.

Rev. 4 on is the end time 70th week that comes after the church age

In Rev. 4:1 we see the Rapture, and in Rev. 4:4 we see the church in heaven. In Rev. 5:9–10 we again see the redeemed church in heaven before the seals are opened.

Rev. 6 is the Seals being opened by Jesus, but they are not actually judgments but instead Jesus foretelling what will come to pass once the Rev. 8 Asteroid ( Apophis? ) hits. Once it finally hits the Anti-Christ will be allowed to go forth conquering thus we know seals 1–5 are all about the coming Anti-Christs reign. Because he 1.) Conquers 2.) Brings War 3.) Which bring Famine 4.) His reign brings Death and Sickness also. 5.) He will Martyr those who come unto Christ after the Rapture. Seal #6 is about God’s Wrath, Jesus foretells of the coming Rev. 8 Wrath which makes the Sun & Moon go Dark.

Rev. 7 is simply the Jews fleeing Judea, thee is no such thing as 144,000 virgin Jewish men, its like the 10 Virgin Brides that stand in fir the Church. These “144,000″ are a code, as in 12 = Fulness and 10 = Completeness thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is simply God shouting this is my Complete and Full nation of Israel who have repented. In another place God says He has saved 7000 men, but again, 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 is just more God lingo for completion We see the real number in Zechariah 13:8–9 where it says 1/3 of the Jews will repent, and that = 3.5–5 million Jews, so the 144,000 like the 10 virgins is code lingo. Those seen in heaven in Rev. 7:9–17 are the church which came out of much tribulation via the Rapture. No one goes from the 70th week to heaven, they only get judged after Jesus Second Coming (Rev. 20:4). We can see the angels are told to HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments) until the 144,000 (Jews) can be sealed up (saved)and protected in the Petra/Bozrah area.

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 are the 42 months of God’s Judgments/Wrath

Actually Rev. 15 and 16 are one chapter. After the Jews flee to the Petra/Bozrah area God’s Wrath falls on mankind via Rev. 8, the first four trumpet judgments are one asteroid. 1.) The fire comes in as it breaks apart whilst coming through out atmosphere thus 1/3 of the earths trees burn (I contend the 1/3 is the location/New World). Then via Trump #2 we see the Asteroid Impact(earthquake). Trumpet #3 brings the poisonous fallout into the fresh waters. The Fourth Trump is the Sun & Moon going dark as Seal #6 prophesied beforehand.

Rev. 9 follows with Woes 1 & 2, we see Apollyon and his locked up demons released. They then hurt men for 5 months but are not allowed to kill men, I think those without the seal of God are hounded until they give in to taking the Mark of the Beast. Then I see the 2nd Woe as 200 million Angels killing 1/3 of those who have taken the Mark of the Beast. These two woes come forth from Trumpets 5 & 6. Trumpet #7 happens and brings the 3rd Woe which is all 7 Vials as seen in Rev. 16, thus in Rev. 15 the 7 Vials are readied for pouring out. Rev. 16 ends the BoR’s judgments, Jesus is Vial #7, he will kill the Anti-Christ and False Prophet and cast them into hell.

Parenthetical Citation Chapters

Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are chapters that happen whilst Rev. 8, 9 and 16 are taking place, except these are other events happening at the exact same time (thus Parenthetical Chapters).

In Rev. 10 we see that when the 7 Thunders sound time will be no more [as we know it now]. The reason the little book John ate was both bitter and sweet is its the Judgments of God. These must happen before we can move to an eternal state under God's rule, that is indeed sweet, but billions of people have to be judged and killed, that is indeed very bitter. God was very sad when He had to flood the whole world.

Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses chapter, it starts out 1335 days before Jesus’ Second Coming, but they die 75 days before Jesus’ Second Coming, thus their ministry on this earth is 1260 days. Their job is to get Israel to repent before God’s Wrath starts at the 1260, which comes 75 days after the 1335. Thus as Mal. 4:5–6 says, Elijah is sent back before the DOTL arrives. The Two-witnesses other job is to pray down all of God’s plagues, just like Moses was the go between on the 10 plagues of Egypt.

Rev. 12 is Satan being cast out of heaven, thus he chases The Woman (Israel as shown in Gen. 37:9 via a code) for 1260 days, this starts via the Rev. 8 Asteroid/1st Trump.

Rev. 13 also starts via the Rev. 8 Asteroid/1st Trump, it is the Anti-Christ going forth to Conquer. He will rule for a short time however, only 1260 days.

Rev. 14 is “The Harvest Chapter” thus it covers the full 7 years. We see Israel (144,000) are harvested as Jesus returns. We see the wicked grapes(Tares) crushed in the wine-press of God’s Wrath in verses 17–20. But, alas in a FLASHBACK in verse 14 we see the Pre Trib Rapture where Jesus himself harvests the world for his bride/church. We the church are the Barley, and Barley needs not be crushed in order to be sifted. Israel are "The Wheat" and wheat needs to be crushed before it can be sifted. The wicked are the grapes.

Rev. 17 is The Harlot (ALL False Religion of all time) rides the Scarlet Colored Beast (Apollyon a Demon). But this last Beast Kingdom of earth is a man, not a kingdom per se. He kills of the Harlot (all other false religions) because he demands to be worshipped as the only god. This starts at the Rev. 8 Asteroid also.

Rev. 18 is the WHOLE WORLD (Babylon) being Judged. This also starts via the Rev. 8 asteroid Impact and lasts for 42 months. In verse 2 we see Babylon is called the habitation of devils, well yea, Satan has been cast down to earth and Apollyon set free from the bottomless pit.

Rev. 19, like Rev. 14 covers the full 7 years, we see the Bride/Church in Heaven before she gets her white robes. Then we the Church come back with Jesus at the 2nd Coming 7 years later.

Rev. 20 is the Judgment chapter of those who lived and died during the 70th week. Rev. 21 and 22 is the Ever after and New Jerusalem chapters.

If people do not grasp its encoded nature, they will never grasp its meanings.
 

Trekson

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Response to post #225
I went down your post, and I’m answering in the order they were written.

The word “signified” in this context does “not” mean “symbolized” it means ‘authenticated” as the use of a signet ring or stamp might do.

I agree that much of Rev. is giving us more details about some OT prophecies, mostly Daniel’s as I believe the scroll being unsealed is the one Daniel was told to seal in Dan. 12:4.

I see the breakdown given differently, the “Things which you have seen” (Rev. 1:12-18), the “Things which are” (The seven churches of John’s time only, Rev. 2-5, the church isn’t present in cp. 5, they are angels, they do “not” represent the whole church age.). There is no rapture here, the word “us” in Rev. 5:9 was a mistranslation that should have been “them”. Finally, we are told about the “Things to come” (Rev. 6-22, the GT upon the church and the culmination of the ToJT both within the context of the 70th week). The GT and the ToJT are two separate events upon two different peoples for two different reasons.

In seal 1, the A/C comes conquering by deception, in seal 5 we see the start of the GT, the martyrdom of the ‘still here” church, Rev. 12:17.

Rev. 7, imo, is where you start to go off the rails. The 10 virgins are bridesmaids, not the bride and they don’t represent the church, Christ is speaking to Israel!

The 144,000 are exactly who the bible says they are but they could be teens and pre-teens. Forget the concept of ‘codes” and “lingo”. Rev. was written in a literal manner to be understood, “not” deciphered. When symbolism is used, it is explained somewhere else in the text. Don’t see an explanation? Don’t make one up, just believe it as it was written.

The 7 trumpets are the wrath of the lamb, Rev. 6:16 and the vials are the wrath of God, Rev. 16:1. The ⅓ haven’t started fleeing anywhere and that is most certainly NOT who the 144,000 represent.

The 200 million man army are most likely China, not angels. You are right about the first two woes but the third woe is satan being loosed upon the earth, Rev. 12:12 and I am 100% positive on that.

Rev. 10:6 is simply saying the time is “up”, there will be no more delays, the time of the end is to begin w/ cp. 11. I have to end here because the complete fantasy that followed would take way to long to correct.
 

Ronald D Milam

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I did not see a reply, the point was to rebut your reply that I can't understand Revelation if I am interpreting it as symbolic. My blog/post from Quora many years ago, show that not tom be the case, of course.

Jesus told the Disciples why he spoke to them in parables, so they hearing and seeing would understand, but the world hearing and seeing wouldn't understand. Then later on he asked Peter, who am I? And Peter answered the Messiah (son of God) and Jesus told him that the holy spirit had revealed that unto him.

So, the most clever, brilliant men cant find God with intelligence, but only by faith, as revealed unto them by the holy spirit. Likewise, God meant for Daniel & Revelation to be cloaked, until the very end times (now) and He cloaked it with codes from the Old Testament. Rev. 17 is Daniel 5, reread it !! Knowing this one then can understand the Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time. God used the Four Horses of Zechariah in Revelation 6.
 

Ronald D Milam

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Response to post #225
I went down your post, and I’m answering in the order they were written.

Well, whatever you have done, I can't respond properly, so I will copy and paste yours and Reply RED.

The word “signified” in this context does “not” mean “symbolized” it means ‘authenticated” as the use of a signet ring or stamp might do.

I never do anything without a Greek or Hebrew word study. The Angel signifying means he attests to it as truth, or affirms it as such. Its like a notarized stamp of approval today. The word SHORTLY from the same verse means IN HASTE or Speedily, the word comes from the Greek word Tachos, where we get our English word Tachometer from. Jes8s was never saying he would return shortly, he was saying EN (at a future point in time) when the Father sends me I will comes SHORTLY, or in a short time burst, or speedily, quickly, or in haste. The Angel can still authentical a book of Symbology as being of God. I could have a book of codes notarized also, as being from me.

I see the breakdown given differently, the “Things which you have seen” (Rev. 1:12-18), the “Things which are” (The seven churches of John’s time only, Rev. 2-5, the church isn’t present in cp. 5, they are angels, they do “not” represent the whole church age.)

This is my calling, so I am well versed on this, Angels do not need to be washed in the blood and REDEEMED do they?

Rev. 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

In 1 Chronicles 24, we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood, the "24 Elders" is the Church, God has REDEEMED US.........Not Angels brother, US the Church, and we have been Raptured Pre Trib. from every nation, tribe and tongue. We are Kings and "Priests" unto our Lord.

The number 7 = Divine Completion, the Church age is not yet over right? It represents 7 different types over the whole church age. The 10 days of tribulation means for the Complete Church Age. The number 7 indeed = Divine Completion whilst 10 just = Completion in general. So, as I stated, we see the 7 Churches in Rev. chapters 2 and 3 only. In Rev. 4:1 we see the open door. and John is told to COME UP HERE as Jesus sounds as a Trump (the Last Trump of the Feast of Trumps). 2 & 3 only is the Complete Church Age, 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven, after the pre trib. rapture.

Finally, we are told about the “Things to come” (Rev. 6-22, the GT upon the church and the culmination of the ToJT both within the context of the 70th week). The GT and the ToJT are two separate events upon two different peoples for two different reasons.

The THINGS TO COME starts in Rev. 4:1 its called the 70th week. These things are AFTER the Church Age




Dont know what ToJT is, but the DOTL is even fake.