Do we have free will or are we predestined?
- Thread starter Armour of God
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Goodness todays rebellious youth would love this my friend .
But daddy when you told me to take out the trash and i didnt not obey you
It was because i had NO choice but to not obey you .
People . WE DO have a choice . ITS CALLED CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom ye SHALL obey .
As for me and the sheep ITS THE CHRIST OF GOD , SON of GOD .
And by His Spirit He does g uide and unction and led us .
Back in the 1800's a farmer in Kentucky was plowing his field. Preparing the soil to plant corn.
As he was walking behind his two mules he looked up in the sky and noticed these white clouds.
These clouds really caught his eye because they seemed to be shaped like letters.
Then he realized it was not only letters but a sentence. He read it as, Go Preach.
He realized God had sent him a sign to start a ministry preaching the gospel.
He gave his testimony the coming Lords day to all the brethren in front of the church.
After worship services the brethren were excited for him and his family.
They asked him to preach next sunday.
Next Sunday he preached. It was the poorest preaching any of them had ever heard.
Two elders from the church visited him on the farm the next day.
The farmer was out in the field again distraught and embarrassed wondering why the Spirit had told him to preach when he clearly had no ability. The two elders walked out into the field and stood beside him.
Dead silence for 5 minutes then the men all looked up into the sky.
There it was again in the clouds, letters.
The farmer read it out loud. Go preach?
Then the two elders read it out loud. Go plow.
Sir, I'm a Bible believing Christian.
When the word says it is the only revelation that will be given to mankind. Then that's exactly what I'm going to believe.
There are millions of personal testimonials.
When someone claims the Holy Spirit told them something that goes against the very revelation the
Holy Spirit revealed. Which one do you think has credibility?
ALL of Gods revelation has already been revealed.
Therefore any latter day revelation is to be rejected.
Jude 3,
- beloved while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints
Gods complete revelation to man WAS(past tense), for ALL TIME, delivered(past tense) unto the saints.
I reject all latter day revelation outside the fully completed Holy word of God.
2Timothy 3:16-17,
- ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God
that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto ALL good works
The Greek word for perfect here "artios" pronounced AR-tee-os,
Means:
Complete
Proficient
Fully qualified
So Paul is telling Timothy his preaching co-worker that the word of God,
Equips the man of God to be, fully equipped, prepared for evey good work.
Every good work is,
Teaching the truth
Correcting error
Living righteously
Ministry
Exhortation
And obedience to God
Previous verses explain that Scripture is profitable for,
2Timothy 3:16-17,
Doctrine(all doctrine)
Reproof
Correction in interpretation of the word and Christian living
Instruction in righteousness
So every good work means,
Every good work God considers good and righteous especially in the life and ministry of the servant of God.
For Timothy that would personally include,
All of His teaching and preaching
Defending the truth
And godly conduct
bdavidc
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That objection only works if you force the text to say more than it says.
Matthew tells us who handled the purchase: “the chief priests took the silver pieces… and bought with them the potter’s field” ~Matthew 27:6-7.
Acts tells us whose money purchased it and whose wicked act led to it: Judas “purchased a field with the reward of iniquity” ~Acts 1:18.
That is not a contradiction. It is ordinary speech. If a man’s money is used to buy property because of his action, Scripture can speak of that field as connected to him. The priests physically bought it. Judas’s blood money funded it. Both statements are true.
The same thing happens in normal language. A man may say, “I built a house,” even though contractors did the physical work. Why? Because it was built by his funds, under his action, and for his purpose. No honest reader calls that a contradiction.
The bigger issue is this: you are not dealing with the passages in context. You are grabbing a list called “50 contradictions” and assuming the Bible is guilty before the text is even examined. That is not careful reasoning. That is importing unbelief into the discussion.
Scripture says, “The sum of thy word is truth” ~Psalm 119:160. Jesus said, “the scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. So when two passages give different details, the right question is not, “How can I make these fight?” The right question is, “What exactly does each passage say?”
Matthew gives the priests’ action. Acts gives Judas’s responsibility and the source of the money. There is no contradiction unless someone is determined to create one.
bdavidc
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There are no contradictions in the Bible. There are contradictions in the darkened understanding of men who handle Scripture like prosecutors instead of hearers before God.
Jesus said, “the scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. That settles the issue for anyone who claims to follow Christ. He did not say Scripture is mostly reliable, mostly true, or true until a skeptic gathers fifty objections from the internet. He said it cannot be broken.
So when someone says, “At some point one must admit the author got it wrong,” the real issue is not evidence. The real issue is authority. You are asking us to put man in the judge’s seat and place God’s Word in the dock. Scripture does not bow to the unbelieving mind. The unbelieving mind must bow to Scripture.
Jesus prayed, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” ~John 17:17. Truth does not become error because men do not understand it. The Bible does not become contradictory because a reader refuses context, ignores genre, confuses different details, or demands that every account be worded the exact same way.
A list titled “50 Contradictions” proves nothing. It is accusation by volume. One bad argument does not become strong because someone stacked forty-nine more beside it. Each claim has to be brought to the text, read in context, and tested by the whole counsel of God’s Word. “The sum of thy word is truth” ~Psalm 119:160. Scripture is not corrected by skeptical lists. Scripture interprets Scripture.
And the Bible already explains why the natural man stumbles over the Word of God. “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” ~1 Corinthians 2:14. That is not name-calling. That is God’s diagnosis. A man can have education, confidence, and a long list of objections, and still be blind to the truth sitting right in front of him.
Paul says, “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not” ~2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Blind men do not correct the light. They need their eyes opened.
So no, I will not admit that God got it wrong because a skeptic says so. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4. The problem is not that Scripture contradicts itself. The problem is that man’s proud heart contradicts Scripture and then calls that scholarship.
Bring one alleged contradiction at a time. Put it on the table. Let the text speak. But do not throw a pile of accusations at the Bible and call that proof. That is not reasoning. That is unbelief hiding behind a numbered list.
No one who doesn't believe in free will actually lives their life as if it were true. If some random person came up to them and punched in the nose, they wouldn't just shrug it off as if it was beyond that person's control. In fact, society couldn't function at all if there was no free will because nobody would be accountable for their actions. In terms of salvation, it makes even less sense to me. If some are predestined to be saved, then there would be no reason for Jesus to die for the sins of all humanity. It also negates the whole purpose of the Great Commission to spread the gospel if it's not really our choice.
Just to add that what most people think of as contradictions are really just apparent contradictions, meaning there is a plausible resolution to be found upon closer inspection. There isn't an apparent contradiction that hasn't been brought up that someone else hasn't addressed in the past two thousand years.
Just to add that what most people think of as contradictions are really just apparent contradictions, meaning there is a plausible resolution to be found upon closer inspection. There isn't an apparent contradiction that hasn't been brought up that someone else hasn't addressed in the past two thousand years.
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I'm not convinced that predestination has to do with salvation.
Predestined to sonship comes the closest.
Predestined to sonship comes the closest.
- Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
- Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
- Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
- Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
We were discussing one a while back on the forum.
When did the fig tree that Jesus cursed wither?
One passage says immediately, the other passage says they discovered it the following day.
Matthew 21:19
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves.
Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
Mark 11:20-21
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.
Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
its the breed nonstoppa energy . better known as a jack russell .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
And now for a real simple question and then a real simple answer .
WHY do you THINK so many desire to believe there are contradictions in the bible .
Answer . Cause that bible exposes their sins and what they desire to beleive is TRUE or IS G OD .
Thus they will gladly run to men that say , OF course its written by men and of course it has contradictions .
And gladly sit and allow such men to rather teach them . People DO NOT like the whole of that bible .
Because in those pages contain what GOD calls sin . And they just dont want to beleive the things they desire
or ag ree with Might JUST BE SIN .
Just a simple truth my friend . But as for this sheep , ME IS STAYING GLUED IN THEM SCRIPTURES , IN the BIBLE .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
In other words , SINCE they cant prove those who hold to the TRUTH in scripture wrong .
cause they cant find scrips to do so . WELL its then HEY lets say Things in the scrips are wrong .
They aint fooling me my friend . THEMSELVES they fool , but not this sheep . BIBLE TIME .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
there are many bible haters my friend . But do beware for they will come in as though
they are not ag ainst the bible , BUT THEY ARE MY FRIEND and they aint fooling me either .
You are correct my friend . But notice how the other tries to use wording to make it seem LIKE a contradiction .
OH THEY DO this in MANY places my friend . They aint fooling the sheep . The only fool
those who desire was to BE DECIEVED and was not rather FOR TRUTH . many love a lie and lies my friend .
And those many need another jesus and another god , ONE that will give them THEIR OWN LUSTFUL hearts desires
WITH a heaping promise of SALVATION TOO . that god and that jesus ........
Well do i need to explain why i wrote that god and not THAT GOD and that jesus and not
that JESUS . CAUSE IT AINT GOD , IT AINT CHRIST . And it darn sure cannot SAVE THEM
Those who deny free will, do they feel like robots, with no responsibility for their decisions and actions?
If so, they can never be convicted of personal sin. They assume every thought and deed of theirs was predestined, so they are not at fault.
We must believe in free will so as to motivate ourselves to crucify the lusts of the flesh and renew our minds.
The message of Jesus is “Repent and believe the gospel”, so it must be possible for the most sinful, depraved person to obey this command.
But it seems true that God does something inside us, seeds planted over time, so we can be receptive to the gospel. Still, we must decide. If we had no choice, there could be no sin or judgment. We must understand this to grow in spiritual maturity. But we do not feel proud of our righteous decisions, we remain humble.
Joshua 24
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
If so, they can never be convicted of personal sin. They assume every thought and deed of theirs was predestined, so they are not at fault.
We must believe in free will so as to motivate ourselves to crucify the lusts of the flesh and renew our minds.
The message of Jesus is “Repent and believe the gospel”, so it must be possible for the most sinful, depraved person to obey this command.
But it seems true that God does something inside us, seeds planted over time, so we can be receptive to the gospel. Still, we must decide. If we had no choice, there could be no sin or judgment. We must understand this to grow in spiritual maturity. But we do not feel proud of our righteous decisions, we remain humble.
Joshua 24
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
It is GOD who draws us to CHRIST . yes my friend .
But many are called yet few chosen .
Even in the bad seeds we see THEY BELEIVED , but what happened
lusts entered in
WHY do we think paul said EXHORT one another daily LEST any of you becomes hardened b y
the deceitfulness of sin .
The simple truth is calivn and scores of others have messed things up . While speaking partial truths
but not really KNOWING THE TRUTH .
The simple thing is . Once one Beleives GET His NOSE in that bible . for many are the doctrines of men gone wrong .
ITs a simple walk , but boy has man made it confusion .
To b e sav ed , ONE MUST bLEIEVE ON JESUS . And another fact
IF ONE continues NOT IN HIM they Will be cast out .
From every word , promise and warning , WE had done well HAD WE SIMPLY JUST BELEIVED and OBERSEVED
to DO as THEY SAID TO DO . but now that is known as legalism and etc .
TO remind the church TO DO that which is good and to FLEE evil , that we must continue IN HIM TO THE END
IS called NOT TRUSTING IN JESUS but in self , By THIS generation .
YET they all warned us TO DO SO . ITs real simple . IF ONLY people would return
to the scrips TO LEARN they had seen and they had learned the TRUE PATTERN for ALL THINGS .
SO i make a call to all , CHOOSE YE THIS DAY WHOM YE SHALL SERVE , WHOM YE SHALL BELIEVE
as for me ITS GOD , HIS CHRIST and HIS WORDS I DO BELEIVE . and I KNOW them apostels
by the SPIRIT left us real good letters to learn .
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Do you not believe that we are predestined?
- Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
- Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
- Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
- Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him
who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
No, the variation is their in black and white.
Matthew says the priests purchased the field.
Acts says that Judas purchased the field.
Your excuse makes no sense to me, it's either one or the other.
And Matthew says that Judas hung himself.
Then Acts says that Judas fell head first.
How can he fall head first when he hung himself. If someone cuts him down he falls feet first, not head first.
Their will always be variations when humans recount something, especially when recounting something from long ago or something they heard from someone else.
Mark says Jesus was crucified on the 3rd hour of the day.
John says that it happened after the 6th hour of the day.
One account says there was two angels in the tomb of Jesus.
Another says there was one angel in the tomb of Jesus.
The genealogies of Jesus are different in Matthew and Luke.
There are heaps af variations in the bible. And I've given many of them careful consideration.
Interview 3 or 4 witnesses to something and you will get these types of variations.
NayborBear
Active Member
Gee! I think you just defined and explained just about every liberal mayor, governor, in every blue state and city in this here U.S. of A., as well about every democrat! WELL DONE SIR!
Cashless Bail? Gun Control? Sounds pretty "lawless" doesn't it? And I don't believe that ANY lawless person or governmental entity Gives TWO HOOTS about the "law!"
Except for the "power and authority" they can USE against those that DO care about the law, AFTER they've conned their way INTO a position where they can. and DO EXERT "power and authority!
This is very true! EXCEPT when it comes to those who are "Chosen" BY the Father and GOD of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. For "times" such as these! And, yea, even "times" before these, and yea, even "times" after these!
Not everyone IS! Which causes much frustration to those who ARE from the "ONLY JESUS!....ONLY JESUS!!......ONLY JESUS!!!!" Crowd/s!
So, SHOULD one/s be of a mindset that God will STOP the "governments of men's affairs" from turning this 3rd rock from the sun into a "Lifeless Cinder?"
Would it give HIM pleasure? Most ASSUREDLY NOT!
HE'D just "Go Back Jack!"......"And Do It Again!"........"Wheels Spinning Round And Round!".....Yanno?
And a SOMETHING that hasn't happened before!
No!.....It doesn't AT ALL negate the purpose of the Great Commission!
Y'all just have to realize these comes a "Time And Season".....FOR WAR!
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
You HAVE to go HERE! And? Be COGNIZANT that you ARE THERE!
1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
@Titus @amigo de christo
Yes, that’s right. She’s the long legged Jack Russell. Called a Parson Russell Terrier. Ten years old this month.
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