Does Grace replace the law?

Lambano said:

Really? You haven't seen Protestants claim that attempting to obey Jesus's earthly commands is the same as attempting to be justified by works? You haven't seen Protestants claim that Jesus's extension of the commandments against Adultery and Murder to include sins of the heart such as Lust and Hatred should be interpreted as reinforcing the inability of Man to obey Torah, and thus need not be obeyed at all?

I've been doing the forum thing for more than 20 years. Somewhere in my files, I kept a rather scathing rebuke from a brother (long since gone on to glory) back in 2003 taking this position. I've seen variations on multiple forums, including this one. All in the name of "Man is not justified by works of the Law".

Just keep your eyes open. Just watch.

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You’re changing your claim now. You initially stated, ‘in light of Reformed . . . theology that renders Jesus's earthly teachings not only obsolete, but in some sense another form of "The Curse of Torah" that condemns rather than saves.’ You made a specific claim about Reformed theology.

But here, you’re simply arguing that some “Protestants claim that attempting to obey Jesus's earthly commands is the same as attempting to be justified by works.” Some Protestants, of which there are a few varieties, including but certainly not limited to Reformed, making such a claim on forums, in no way whatsoever means that ‘Reformed . . . theology . . . renders Jesus's earthly teachings not only obsolete, but in some sense another form of "The Curse of Torah" that condemns rather than saves.’

That’s just individuals from whatever theological persuasion making a claim.

PS95 said:

I've seen it! But unless I'm missing something- it's not all protestants. There are those who teach obedience/Lordship like John MacArthur- who I do not agree with on everything.- but he did teach Lordship and godly living.

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Oooo, that's right. I had forgotten about John MacArthur and the controversy about what's called "Lordship Salvation" versus "Free Grace".

I remember picking up Mac's book at the Christian bookstore. I didn't buy it then; maybe I should now. MacArthur has a way of always making me feel guilty.

Justified said:

You’re changing your claim now. You initially stated, ‘in light of Reformed . . . theology that renders Jesus's earthly teachings not only obsolete, but in some sense another form of "The Curse of Torah" that condemns rather than saves.’ You made a specific claim about Reformed theology.

But here, you’re simply arguing that some “Protestants claim that attempting to obey Jesus's earthly commands is the same as attempting to be justified by works.” Some Protestants, of which there are a few varieties, including but certainly not limited to Reformed, making such a claim on forums, in no way whatsoever means that ‘Reformed . . . theology . . . renders Jesus's earthly teachings not only obsolete, but in some sense another form of "The Curse of Torah" that condemns rather than saves.’

That’s just individuals from whatever theological persuasion making a claim.

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Jesus taught His Apostles for their respective audiences.
eg who does Gal 2:7-9 teach is the Apostle to you ?
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Lordship Salvation vs. Free Grace: Co-pilot's summary

Lordship Salvation emphasizes that true faith results in obedience and transformation, while Free Grace teaches that salvation is by faith alone, independent of works or life change.

Core Differences​

Lordship Salvation teaches that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, but true saving faith inherently involves surrendering to Christ as Lord, turning from sin, and producing good works. A believer’s faith will inevitably result in a transformed life, and spiritual fruit is evidence of genuine salvation (Ephesians 2:10) Repentance and obedience are seen as inseparable from saving faith, though not the basis of salvation.

Free Grace Theology, on the other hand, asserts that salvation is entirely by grace through faith alone, without any requirement for repentance, surrender, or obedience at the moment of salvation. A person can believe in Christ and receive eternal life even if they continue in sin or remain spiritually immature. Discipleship, obedience, and good works are important for spiritual growth and rewards in heaven, but they are not necessary for salvation (John 3:16; John 6:47)

Assurance of Salvation​

In Lordship Salvation, assurance is often tied to evidence of ongoing obedience and perseverance. Critics argue this can create uncertainty, as believers may question whether they are truly saved if they struggle with sin or fail to consistently follow Christ

In Free Grace, assurance is based solely on faith in Christ’s promise of eternal life. Believers can have confidence in their salvation regardless of their current level of obedience or spiritual maturity, because salvation is a gift received by faith alone (John 1:12; John 5:24)

Lambano said:

Lordship Salvation vs. Free Grace: Co-pilot's summary

Lordship Salvation emphasizes that true faith results in obedience and transformation, while Free Grace teaches that salvation is by faith alone, independent of works or life change.

Core Differences​

Lordship Salvation teaches that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, but true saving faith inherently involves surrendering to Christ as Lord, turning from sin, and producing good works. A believer’s faith will inevitably result in a transformed life, and spiritual fruit is evidence of genuine salvation (Ephesians 2:10) Repentance and obedience are seen as inseparable from saving faith, though not the basis of salvation.

Free Grace Theology, on the other hand, asserts that salvation is entirely by grace through faith alone, without any requirement for repentance, surrender, or obedience at the moment of salvation. A person can believe in Christ and receive eternal life even if they continue in sin or remain spiritually immature. Discipleship, obedience, and good works are important for spiritual growth and rewards in heaven, but they are not necessary for salvation (John 3:16; John 6:47)

Assurance of Salvation​

In Lordship Salvation, assurance is often tied to evidence of ongoing obedience and perseverance. Critics argue this can create uncertainty, as believers may question whether they are truly saved if they struggle with sin or fail to consistently follow Christ

In Free Grace, assurance is based solely on faith in Christ’s promise of eternal life. Believers can have confidence in their salvation regardless of their current level of obedience or spiritual maturity, because salvation is a gift received by faith alone (John 1:12; John 5:24)

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Thanks to a previous poster here on this forum for the below.
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Here is a snippet with the rest above

Assurance of Salvation​

Salvation is a work of God.1 More than that, salvation is solely a work of God. Assurance of salvation is possible only if salvation is a work of God alone. If salvation depended upon man’s ability, assurance of salvation would require answering two questions:

1. What works are necessary to meet God’s approval for righteousness?
2. How many works are necessary?

No one can answer the above questions. We have no information that will answer them. Therefore, assurance of salvation is impossible if salvation depends in any part on a person’s works or good deeds. However, if salvation depends on the work of God, one can have assurance of salvation.
The Scriptures make it clear it is impossible for man to gain the approval of God and attain His righteousness by doing good works. Isaiah wrote, “For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment” (Isaiah 64.6). This is the Old Testament witness of man’s righteousness before God. Paul summed up the problem when he wrote, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3.23). Only one righteous man has ever lived–Jesus Christ. Only His works satisfied God. The proof of Jesus’ righteousness and the approval of His work on the cross for our sins was His resurrection from the dead (Romans 1.4). Because of Jesus’ death on the cross and his resurrection we can have assurance of salvation (1 Corinthians 15.1-4).

doctrine.org said:

Assurance of salvation is possible only if salvation is a work of God alone.

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MacArthur comes at it from a Reformed (and this time I do mean "Calvinist") perspective where Saving Faith requires that the person's spirit must be regenerated first before he can truly trust in Christ. Good works, obedience to Christ and holiness inevitably also spring from that spiritual regeneration. Therefore, in this theological framework, a person's good works, obedience, and growth in holiness are evidence of regeneration and thus the source of a Christian's assurance.

LoveYeshua said:

Grace forgives, but it certainly does not leave a person in sin.

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To answer the question; Grace did not replace the Law, the New Covenant replaced the Law.
Grace does not forgive.
Grace does not come from Yahweh.
Now what is grace? What is Grace? When the scriptures speak of them are they different?
If you look it up the definition of Grace it is different in different denominations.

Webster's definition of Grace....


Is the unmerited favor of God grace or Grace?
I think in the scriptures grace is defined as favor or love.
Yeshua forgives us because He loves us, but that is not Grace.
I believe Grace is an event, not a being or emotion.
When Yeshua passed on the cross the veil tore in two, I think that was because of Grace.
We were no longer separated from Yahweh. No further need for the Holy of Holies.
Grace made our reconciliation with Yahweh possible.
How? Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.....that is what separated us to begin with.
Yeshua's passing on the cross did not change Yahweh.
The tearing of the veil did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not make us sinless, we still sin.
So how can Yahweh stand to associate with us?
We are changed.
Yahweh turned all authority over us to Yeshua. He turned our sins over to Yeshua.
And Grace, the blood of Yeshua acts like a spiritual white cloak that covers our sins and Yahweh does not see them.
Our sins are forgiven by Yeshua if we ask for forgiveness.......









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LoveYeshua said:

Grace forgives, but it certainly does not leave a person in sin.

Click to expand...

To answer the question; Grace did not replace the Law, the New Covenant replaced the Law.
Grace does not forgive.
Grace does not come from Yahweh.
Now what is grace? What is Grace? When the scriptures speak of them are they different?
If you look it up the definition of Grace is different in different denominations.

Webster's definition of Grace....
View attachment 84763

Is the unmerited favor of God grace or Grace?
I think in the scriptures grace is defined as favor or love.
Yeshua forgives us because He loves us, but that is not Grace.
I believe Grace is an event, not a being or emotion.
When Yeshua passed on the cross the veil tore in two, I think that was because of Grace.
We were no longer separated from Yahweh. No further need for the Holy of Holies.
Grace made our reconciliation with Yahweh possible.
How? Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.....that is what separated us to begin with.
Yeshua's passing on the cross did not change Yahweh.
The tearing of the veil did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not make us sinless, we still sin.
So how can Yahweh stand to associate with us?










.

Grailhunter said:

To answer the question; Grace did not replace the Law, the New Covenant replaced the Law.
Grace does not forgive.
Grace does not come from Yahweh.
Now what is grace? What is Grace? When the scriptures speak of them are they different?
If you look it up the definition of Grace is different in different denominations.

Webster's definition of Grace....
View attachment 84763

Is the unmerited favor of God grace or Grace?
I think in the scriptures grace is defined as favor or love.
Yeshua forgives us because He loves us, but that is not Grace.
I believe Grace is an event, not a being or emotion.
When Yeshua passed on the cross the veil tore in two, I think that was because of Grace.
We were no longer separated from Yahweh. No further need for the Holy of Holies.
Grace made our reconciliation with Yahweh possible.
How? Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.....that is what separated us to begin with.
Yeshua's passing on the cross did not change Yahweh.
The tearing of the veil did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not make us sinless, we still sin.
So how can Yahweh stand to associate with us?










.

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For in CHRIST JESUS you have been made , RIGHTEOUS .
Correct the new covenant did NOT change Yahweh . For the word became flesh and
HE simply fullfilled the first that HE might establish the second .
IN HIM , as in JESUS CHRIST , one is seen , counted , made RIGHTEOUS . by which the flesh
could not make one . For finding fault with them HE said behold the days cometh
when i shall write my laws upon their minds and in their hearts .
THE flesh cannot do so . The FLESH cannot attain to the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD in perfection .
BUT JESUS SURE DID . HE surely did what no man could . And now IN HIM are the sheep made the RIGHTEOUSNESS
of GOD , being freely justified BY HIM , BY GOD .
But reader i do have a dire reminder to report and to remind us all a bout my friend .
IF one came to another jesus , IT WILL not and it cannot save you , me or anyone who comes to such a jesus .
And the jesus i see getting preached in a whole lot of congregations is not THE JESUS i read about in said bible .
Oh no , dear reader, for you see their jesus seemth to honor sin . their jesus seemeth to even honor UNBELIEF in THE JESUS
and HIS GOSPEL . and me oh my that AINT JESUS and IT AINT OF GOD . remember
satan has minstirs too and they can surely appear as men of the cloth but deceived they are and decieve many they do .

Grailhunter said:

To answer the question; Grace did not replace the Law, the New Covenant replaced the Law.
Grace does not forgive.
Grace does not come from Yahweh.
Now what is grace? What is Grace? When the scriptures speak of them are they different?
If you look it up the definition of Grace is different in different denominations.

Webster's definition of Grace....
View attachment 84763

Is the unmerited favor of God grace or Grace?
I think in the scriptures grace is defined as favor or love.
Yeshua forgives us because He loves us, but that is not Grace.
I believe Grace is an event, not a being or emotion.
When Yeshua passed on the cross the veil tore in two, I think that was because of Grace.
We were no longer separated from Yahweh. No further need for the Holy of Holies.
Grace made our reconciliation with Yahweh possible.
How? Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.....that is what separated us to begin with.
Yeshua's passing on the cross did not change Yahweh.
The tearing of the veil did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not make us sinless, we still sin.
So how can Yahweh stand to associate with us?










.

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Now lets look at this again . For is any ones pastor , elder , teacher , bishop , deacon
or etc
USES the phrase we still sin and as a means to holler judge not correct not . THAT ONE aint got no b usiness
leading anyone . WHEN making mention of sin and sins in the church .
WHY lets look at that dire grave stance against it I SEEN IN EvERY LETTER of them apostels .
THEY WERE TRUE MEN . THEY were TRUE LEADERS and by the SPIRIT They KNEW how to a keep a church safe .
FOR JESUS had them . that i do know . JESUS did have them . Its todays leaders i seriously worry about .
Cause they sure dont seem , SPECIALLY when it comes to sins and NOW even unbelief ,
ANYTHING LIKE those men were . And i mean NOT EVEN remotely close . IN fact many are quite opposite
and very dangerous and v ery decieved indeed . SO lets all bible up and lets see
IF ol aimgo is a liar OR is he TRUTH TELLLING . YOU go and YOU BEHOLD their letters
and do take heed to how their views about sin , and UNBELIEF were seen . VERY very grave they were .

PeterAndroz said:

Jesus taught His Apostles for their respective audiences.
eg who does Gal 2:7-9 teach is the Apostle to you ?
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

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As I have pointed out, Paul still taught Jews and Peter was involved with Gentiles. So, it is quite likely that your idea of apostleship is incorrect.

Lambano said:

Oooo, that's right. I had forgotten about John MacArthur and the controversy about what's called "Lordship Salvation" versus "Free Grace".

I remember picking up Mac's book at the Christian bookstore. I didn't buy it then; maybe I should now. MacArthur has a way of always making me feel guilty.

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I haven't read his book. I was only speaking to the idea of what we were discussing.. with regard to Reformed teaching that pre-cross teachings of Jesus were omitted by Reformed.
While I've heard Behold say pre-cross is null etc.. - MacArthur was very different. Like I said, I don't agree with some things he taught way (his eschatology and 5 pt reformed, osas ) but I should be fair enough to say that I didn't listen to him very often.
I can say the same of Calvary chapel- they also teach to walk in obedience but again- osas and Dispensationalists- not Reformed..
I think John Piper is also Reformed- he teaches obedience as evidence, osas and he is not pretrib..
Lots of different views on various issues but they share some common ground on walking in obedient faith.

I never felt guilty with MacArthur- I thought he did a good job on that issue.


Lots of different views on various issues but share some common ground on walking in obedient faith.

Instead of buying the book-you can just click here below where he explained his view on Lordship.
His site is expansive. He passed away recently.
While I don't agree fully on everything with the 3 above teach I could not say they teach at all like Behold does.
They teach obedience, walking in holiness, and love as a result of genuine faith.
Mac Arthur being very clear on his view...

LoveYeshua said:

They say grace means no obedience. They say nothing is required. They say a changed life is not necessary.

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I don't know anyone who says that. Certainly not any Christian I have ever heard or read. That is what we are accused of by people who do not understand the power of God's Grace.

Grace does not mean being empowered to obey the letter of the Law. Grace means being empowered to obey the Spirit who wrote that Law, and gave it to Israel to set them apart and make them holy that through that cleansed vessel might be born a Savior to save us all from our sins. The Spirit who alone knows every sinful, selfish desire and motive and intention of our heart and mind that are blots and stains on our soul and separates us from a Holy God in whose Presence we would be consumed had He not put a veil of separation between us and Him for our sake!

The power of God's Grace is the power to cleanse our hearts of our own sinful will and fill us up with what fills His Heart ... love, joy, peace, goodness, faithfulness ... And when you walk obedient to the Heart of God, that Law written in stone becomes a mirror to convict us of our sin and drive us to our knees in repentence and prayer, asking God to deliver us from that spirit of anger or pride or greed or lust or envy or petty little selfish spirits that so easily tempt us to indulge the flesh and sin against our God.

God's Grace does not come to us from His Law to conform us to His Law. His Grace comes to us from His Spirit to conform us to His Son. Jesus wasn't the most holy and righteous man who ever lived because he obeyed the Law. It was because He walked with God, drank of God's Spirit, and loved with God's own Heart. And unless and until we can even begin to walk like Jesus did, in communion with and complete submission to that Blessed Spirit of Grace we will never understand how precious, how absolutely necessary, how blessed, how liberating, how powerful, how transforming is God's Grace. "Amazing GRACE, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see. It's GRACE that taught my heart to fear, and GRACE my fears relieved. How precious did that GRACE appear the hour I first believed. Through many dangers, toils and snares, I have already come. Tis GRACE that's led me safe thus far, and GRACE will lead me home. Yeah, when this flesh and heart shall fail, and mortal life shall cease. I shall possess, within that veil, that GRACE and joy and peace.

"Let us therefore come boldly to the Throne of Grace, that we may obtain mercy and find the power of God's Grace that rushes to help us when we cry out to God in our time of need." (paraphrased)

LoveYeshua said:

They say grace means no obedience. They say nothing is required. They say a changed life is not necessary.

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Pilgrimer said:

I don't know anyone who says that. Certainly not any Christian I have ever heard or read. That is what we are accused of by people who do not understand the power of God's Grace.

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Pilgrimer- it's been said here many times.

PS95 said:

Pilgrimer- it's been said here many times.

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Hm. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are arguing that nothing is required to reconcile us with God because only the blood of Jesus can do that. Nothing is required to wash us, to purge us, to deliver us from of sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus can do that. Nothing is required to grant us access into the Kingdom, the House, the Presence of God, nothing but the blood of Jesus can do that. But certainly once we have been reconciled with God, once we have been sprinkled with his blood, once we have been purged and delivered from the bondage to sin, once we have been born into His Kingdom, made members of His Household, and granted audience with our King, there is absolutely a demand for obedience. It's just that what obedience means under the Old Covenant and what it means under the New are two very different things.

Justified said:

As I have pointed out, Paul still taught Jews and Peter was involved with Gentiles. So, it is quite likely that your idea of apostleship is incorrect.

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oh its more than likely he is incorrect indeed . THEY all , even peter had preached to gentiles the same gospel
he preached to the jews , and paul went into every jewish synangoue
and preached JESUS to both the jews and greeks .
YOU , my friend , are correct on this assesment .

Pilgrimer said:

Hm. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are arguing that nothing is required to reconcile us with God because only the blood of Jesus can do that. Nothing is required to wash us, to purge us, to deliver us from of sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus can do that. Nothing is required to grant us access into the Kingdom, the House, the Presence of God, nothing but the blood of Jesus can do that. But certainly once we have been reconciled with God, once we have been sprinkled with his blood, once we have been purged and delivered from the bondage to sin, once we have been born into His Kingdom, made members of His Household, and granted audience with our King, there is absolutely a demand for obedience. It's just that what obedience means under the Old Covenant and what it means under the New are two very different things.

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If that's the argument they would not say what they do.
We agree that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
What is at issue is the response to that grace. The new creation.- regeneration
Some here do say no obedience or even loyalty is required after and call it, "performance" to try to keep yourself saved-
which then turns to into false allegations about how must believe that works save us- so we are not saved at all..

Whereas what we are saying is that obedience and loyalty are the result of salvation and proof of it.
We love because he first loved us.
If there is no obedience or a person turns away from the faith- living in all manner of sins and dies flat out denying Jesus- is that person saved? They say yes-
and we say either he was never truly saved to begin with or he fell away from the faith.-
"You shall know them by their fruits."
We are commanded to love one another- a person who lives in all manner of sins is not walking in love.
A person who denies Jesus is not a believer and is not abiding in HIM.

Pilgrimer said:

Hm. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are arguing that nothing is required to reconcile us with God because only the blood of Jesus can do that. Nothing is required to wash us, to purge us, to deliver us from of sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus can do that. Nothing is required to grant us access into the Kingdom, the House, the Presence of God, nothing but the blood of Jesus can do that. But certainly once we have been reconciled with God, once we have been sprinkled with his blood, once we have been purged and delivered from the bondage to sin, once we have been born into His Kingdom, made members of His Household, and granted audience with our King, there is absolutely a demand for obedience. It's just that what obedience means under the Old Covenant and what it means under the New are two very different things.

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I should add to my above reply that some teach that there are two gospels in the NT and therefore they cancel out the teachings of Jesus as for us- they say they are for the Jews only and that Peter taught a different gospel than Paul. They are "Paul" only"- but even if a person reads only Paul it's impossible to conclude what they do about obedience.
These teachers are against any repentance and also see a water baptism as a work.- saying Paul never taught either. Some say there is no such thing as sin now.

Also- I know of one person- I am unsure of the others here dismisses- sanctification, calling it "discipleship" instead so he does admit to a some sort of a response-- but then turns around with it is not necessary- calling it performance and claiming osas for those who have no fruits in their life and/ or denied Jesus until they died.

They go all haywire.
There are works of the law- we are not under the law.
but there are good works of love - faith working through love- and that love does not sin and loves others. That loves doesn't condone sin and that love encourages believers who may sin to repent. We are given the Spirit in order to deaden the evil works of the flesh. The spirit convicts us and we respond. This is an ongoing walk with the Lord.

PS95 said:

I should add to my above reply that some teach that there are two gospels in the NT and therefore they cancel out the teachings of Jesus as for us- they say they are for the Jews only and that Peter taught a different gospel than Paul. They are "Paul" only"- but even if a person reads only Paul it's impossible to conclude what they do about obedience.
These teachers are against any repentance and also see a water baptism as a work.- saying Paul never taught either. Some say there is no such thing as sin now.

Also- I know of one person- I am unsure of the others here dismisses- sanctification, calling it "discipleship" instead so he does admit to a some sort of a response-- but then turns around with it is not necessary- calling it performance and claiming osas for those who have no fruits in their life and/ or denied Jesus until they died.

They go all haywire.
There are works of the law- we are not under the law.
but there are good works of love - faith working through love- and that love does not sin and loves others. That loves doesn't condone sin and that love encourages believers who may sin to repent. We are given the Spirit in order to deaden the evil works of the flesh. The spirit convicts us and we respond. This is an ongoing walk with the Lord.

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as you can see we got problems in christendom my friend .
But allow me to say it real short and simple .
Every gospel in that bible from mathew , mark , luke , john ,
to lukes record in acts , to every letter of paul , james , jude , john , peter ,
To the revelation given to john . IS FOR THE BELEIVER . whether jewish born or gentile born matters not .
Its men with agendas and etc that went about t rying to change things and omit things .
Every word is for the good of THE BELIEVER in CHRIST JESUS .