Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Only if the Jews turn to Jesus to be saved, and before the destruction takes place in the world.
The Prophetic Feasts of Israel
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That is not what I believe at all and I don't know of anyone who has that opinion. I am premill but I am not pre-trib. The 144,000 are exactly who the bible says they are. The Holy Spirit, being omni-present will "never" go away. The true "church" is made up of only those who are born again and we all receive the infilling of the HS upon salvation. It's the bible that says, within the context of the trumpet and vial judgments that men will "refuse" to repent, although they will be given the opportunity, thus sealing their own fate. The latter day born again of Israel, who will be 'spiritually" ready for the rapture but won't be because their destiny is different from the church's. According to scripture, Rev. 12:14 they will be taken to a place of safety for most of the latter part of the week.
The bible says that will happen several times in the prophecies of the OT and in Rev.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Pentecost changed everything. There is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus.
Like I said earlier God does not save nations of people in the age of the New Covenant. We are saved one by one. Now if you want to talk about the holy nation of God's people, Christians, that's a different story.
Amen. Not through a supposed bloodline, not through a supposed unfulfilled promise. Only through Christ.
While the OT prophecies didn't say "how" it would happen, it just assured Israel that those days would come and I agree it will only happen through Jesus.
Let me put it another way. Do you believe in revivals where sometimes hundreds can receive salvation at the same time yet they all do so on an individual basis? That is how it will be w/ Israel. God will open the spiritual eyes of the 1/3 at the same point in time through the events caused by the a/c that are contrary to scripture as Zech. 12:10 describes. So, the future residents of millennial Israel will be saved by a God timed revival, via a belief in Christ as the Messiah, which will be upon the mass of Israeli's who will enter the kingdom.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
From my biblical viewpoint, the 144,000 are symbolic of all the faithful of Israel, who HAD lived "under the altar" of the OC (Rev. 6:9-11)., but had not and could not receive the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, until AFTER the shedding of the blood of Christ, and was glorified. John 7:39.
Prior to that day, and the day of Pentecost, all of such could only be held in remembrance by God, in a "Book of Remembrance". Malachi 3:16-18.
Hence the words of the repentant thief on the cross: Remember me when you come into your kingdom.
Therefore all should come to the terms of understanding, that NO ONE, prior to Jesus Christ, ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.
In the day when no more people come to repentance, the Holy Spirit of God WILL no longer be made available, because they will have then fully rejected and trampled upon the holy blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. The Holy Spirit will have then become powerless to convict or convert anyone to Christ, who has wilfully rejected the blood of Christ.
Heb. 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Which is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit).
As for Rev. 12:14, that "woman" was of the seed of promise through Abraham, Issac and Jacob, who were of the Israel of faith. When the Promise of Christ appeared, the Israel of faith is NOW become the church of Born again Saints. As you know, many of the Jews of faith in that day became converted to Christ. And as for them who died in faith years ago before Christ's appearance in mortal flesh, they all were rewarded with the "White Robe", symbolic of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the Vehicle of Eternal Life. Rev. 6:9-11. 1 John 5:11-13.
Apart from having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ NOW, there is no hope for anyone of today's nation of Israel at all.
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They will have saving faith at the time of their national revival. However, Rev. is a book of prophecy, not history so those martyrs under the altar will be those of the church, in the context of the Great Trib. and when the rest of those who God has called to be martyrs are fulfilled (Rev. 6:11), then the rapture/resurrection will happen and we next see the church arriving in heaven having been rescued via our blessed hope in Rev. 7:9-14. The souls of the OT saints are in heaven awaiting their resurrection if they weren't already resurrected when Christ was. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man as well as the appearance of Elijah and Moses confirms this.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Sorry, because church-ianity only sees the book of Rev. chronologically (according to human thinking), they can not perceive how it is that the Eternal God thinks in the past, present and future, all at the same time. Isa. 55:8-9.
Therefore, the written words of Rev. can be interpreted as being already past, is now happening in the present, and/or still is to be in the future.
Our human minds cannot think the Eternal thoughts of God, unless we have the Holy Spirit to teach us the "dimension" of time that His words are in, and not that of the linear thinking by denominational biblical scholars, that teach only by "the wisdom of men".
Jeremiah 30:3: - 3 For behold, the days are coming,' says the Lord, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the Lord. 'And I will cause them to return to the earth that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.'"
Note God causes them to return to "His Earth" that he created.
Matthew 21:43 apparently refers to gentile Christians. The idea that gentiles would share in God's blessings was not understood in early Israel. See
That is temporary. Check out Isaiah 11:11-12, Deuteronomy 4:29-31.
Rockerduck noted:
<Next thing destruction.>
Destruction of the universe occurs after the Millennium (Revelation 21:1).
"Earth" is
While God may think that way, the word was written for man's understanding. He didn't give us a puzzle book to figure out and decipher. Simply read it as written and it's quite easy to understand. Don't create illusions that aren't scripturally real.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what it is I am pointing out.
NO ONE, including Elijah and Moses (prior to Jesus) have ever gone to heaven, and were NEVER YET Eternal beings possessing Eternal Life, UNTIL AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ. John 7:39.
Therefore, what the three disciples thought they saw at Christ's Transfiguration, WAS NOT anyone human, but rather what Jesus said previously of that which they WOULD SEE.
Now truthfully, we ALL can see WHAT the three disciples SAW, as it is revealed in John 1:51
No one, who is born "from beneath" of only mortal flesh has any Eternal existence of any kind. The concept of "an eternal soul" is a blatant Religious LIE.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) is a parable, a semi-fictious story meant to deliver a singular truth. In this case, the singular Truth is verse 31.
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I don't believe that to be true. The concept of sheol, hades and paradise combined, is well known in the OT. A soul doesn't have to had been indwelt by the HS to arrive in heaven. The sacrifices they performed and their faith in God was sufficient for them to have rec'd righteousness (right standing before God) thus eternal life as Abraham and the remnant of Israel throughout history. The sacrifices they made were sufficient for their sins being redeemed. If the sacrifices weren't enough than billions of animals were sacrificed for nothing. Neither you Luke or John references deny this reality. I don't think Paul was lying when he said, "to be absent from the body is to be present w/ the Lord. The whole concept that there isn't an eternal soul, isn't a religious lie, it's a satanic one!
Earburner
Well-Known Member
In light of John 7:39, it is amazing how powerful a lie can be when it has been repeated over and over again in opposition to the truth. Just because most of the denominations of church-ianity believe the paganistic lie of the RCC, it doesn't make it to be truth!!
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
I hate break it to you, but read all the blessings and curses in Deuteronomy and Exodus. When Judea and Israel broke the covenant by disobedience and being worse than the nations God drove out before the Israelites. God said He wanted Israel (northern kingdom) removed out of His sight 2 Kings 17:18, and when the Babylonian exiles returned. there was 400 yrs of no God or prophets, and no Arc of the covenant. All prophecies fulfilled with Jesus.
Case in point. In Deuteronomy 11 God says He will divide the Euphrates river. Guess what, the Euphrates is not a river anymore, its a creek.
While we are on the subject, IMO the seven Jewish holidays celebrate seven acts of the Messiah:
1 Passover: slain as a lamb (Isaiah 53:7)
2 Unleavened bread: he had done no violence (Is 53:9)
3 First fruits: first fruits from the grave (Psalm 16:10)
4 Pentecost: pour out my spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28)
5 Trumpets: returns in judgment (Daniel 7:13)
6 Atonement: atones for Israel (Isaiah 59:20)
7 Booths: Millennial reign of Jesus (Revelation 20:6)
("Leaven" is symbolic of sin. In the Old Testament the Israelites were instructed to remove leaven from their homes during the feast of Unleavened Bread.)
1 Passover: slain as a lamb (Isaiah 53:7)
2 Unleavened bread: he had done no violence (Is 53:9)
3 First fruits: first fruits from the grave (Psalm 16:10)
4 Pentecost: pour out my spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28)
5 Trumpets: returns in judgment (Daniel 7:13)
6 Atonement: atones for Israel (Isaiah 59:20)
7 Booths: Millennial reign of Jesus (Revelation 20:6)
("Leaven" is symbolic of sin. In the Old Testament the Israelites were instructed to remove leaven from their homes during the feast of Unleavened Bread.)
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