Christ has already returned ?

Davy said:

Thus it is not the flesh body Paul was talking about with "this mortal" in 1 Cor.15:53-54. He was pointing to the mortal still liable to perish soul that is cast into the future "lake of fire". The future resurrection body is not one of flesh, but a change to the "spiritual body" Paul taught, and actually it's really just a casting off of the flesh body and the spirit body we already have is suddenly revealed in that other dimension, the heavenly (like Eccl.12:5-7 shows).

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I agree with almost all of your post but we seem to see "immortality" differently.

What do you understand the word "quickened" to mean?
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

My understanding is that our soul/spirt become immortal when we are born again by faith in Jesus Christ.

As for the resurrected body, we can consider Jesus' resurrected body:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Even though "flesh and bones" Jesus' resurrected body was not subject to the constraints of present physical laws.

Paul wrote "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:21)

So, I would say that our soul/spirit are contained within our resurrected body.

MatthewG said:

Let me respond to your points in a clearer way.

What’s actually “new” in Revelation isn’t a new physical planet or a new political era. It’s the new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells — the life of the Spirit in those who seek relationship with the Lord. That’s the covenant reality Christ brought.

As for the thousand years, Scripture often uses numbers symbolically. A thousand represents a complete, full measure of time, not a literal 1,000‑year countdown. Many people assume it must be literal, but the text itself doesn’t require that.

Revelation is a deeply Jewish book. Its imagery, its covenant language, and its warnings are rooted in Israel’s story. It describes the coming of the Lord in judgment and the destruction of Jerusalem — the end of the old covenant age.

Because of that, I believe the great white throne judgment, the judgment of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet all occurred in the culmination of that age. Those were covenant‑ending judgments, not future geopolitical events.

And what are we left with after all of that? Revelation 21 and 22. Everything before those chapters deals with what was passing away. Revelation 21 and 22 reveal what is truly new — the completed work, the new creation reality in Christ.

That’s the framework I’m coming from.

I like how revelation 21, and 22, leave it so clear that their is a heavenly kingdom, and their is also an outside of the kingdom too where the gates never close. And this is all after hell and everything is gotten rid of. Lake of Fire still exist cause that fire is coming from God, and in the midst of that fire is said to be the Lamb and his messengers.

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MatthewG said:

Prodeo here is another interesting tidbit,

If John wrote Revelation in the 90s AD, after Jerusalem was destroyed, it’s strange that he never warns believers not to repeat the mistakes of their brothers. The destruction of the Temple was the most traumatic event in Jewish‑Christian history, yet John never mentions it, never references it, and never uses it as an example. That silence makes no sense if he wrote after the fact.

But if John wrote shortly before the destruction, the silence makes perfect sense. The danger was still future, the Temple was still standing, and the warnings were still urgent. Revelation 11 even has John measuring the Temple as though it still exists. That fits a pre‑70 date far better than a 90s date.

1. If John wrote in AD 90–96, why didn’t he warn Christians about the Temple’s destruction?​

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So here is my list of beliefs in summary, considering I believe that Revelation was completed and already happened:

You believe that the new heaven and new earth described in Scripture are not a future physical planet but the spiritual reality God established through Christ, a reality we live in today. When the old covenant “elements” passed away (2 Peter 3:10; Galatians 4:3, Colossians 2:20), God brought forth a new creation order where His people live under the reign of Christ, not through earthly kingdoms but through the Spirit.

Because of this, you believe that God’s kingdom is present now, not political or geographical, but spiritual — the reign of Christ in the hearts of those who believe. As Jesus said, “the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21), and believers have already been “translated into the kingdom of His dear Son” (Colossians 1:13).

In this new creation, the focus is on building up the spiritual person. You see the Christian life as walking in the Spirit, putting off the old self, and living in the newness of life that comes from Christ (Romans 6:4; Galatians 5:16). This is how believers participate in the new heaven and earth — by living as renewed people in God’s renewed world.

You also believe that even though Jesus has already fulfilled His promises and established His kingdom, we are not left alone. The Spirit of Christ still helps, teaches, convicts, and strengthens us today (Romans 8:9–14). Through the Spirit, people can still turn to God, be transformed, and walk in the light rather than the darkness.

At the center of your view is the conviction that God’s promises are active now:

• We are part of His kingdom today.
• We walk in the new creation today.
• We grow spiritually by the Spirit today.
• And people can still meet Christ, be changed, and live by the Spirit today.

Your hope is that others will see that the new heaven and earth is not something far away, but something God has already brought forth — a spiritual reality meant to shape how we live, love, and walk with Him right now.

markalan said:

I agree with almost all of your post but we seem to see "immortality" differently.

What do you understand the word "quickened" to mean?
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

My understanding is that our soul/spirt become immortal when we are born again by faith in Jesus Christ.

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Do you believe man's Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine? The Hyper-Grace crowd teaches against God's Word when it speaks of a believer on Christ that later falls away. If their soul was 'quickened', i.e., made immortal when they first believed on Jesus, then how is it that God's Word speaks of those who fall away from Christ? And Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 about the "strong delusion" issued the Church a major warning about that falling away to "that Wicked" one he mentioned there, the "man of sin", which will be a coming false-Messiah playing our Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

We have to be very careful when reading Apostle Paul's expressions, because he taught Christ's Salvation often in 'past tense' mode, when the main event of the falling away by the coming false-Messiah still had not happened yet in his day.

Just something to think on;

​

“Quickened” does not mean “made immortal.” It means made alive spiritually — brought out of spiritual death into the life of Christ.

Immortality is something believers receive at the resurrection, not at conversion.

“This mortal must put on immortality.” — 1 Corinthians 15:53

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If we already had immortality the moment we believed, Paul wouldn’t say we must put it on later.

I see all people as having a God‑given soul — something God Himself formed and breathed into humanity.

“The LORD God… breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” — Genesis 2:7

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Because God gave the soul, He also preserves it for judgment or resurrection.

Jesus said:

“All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth…” — John 5:28–29

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So every soul God created will be raised — not because they were immortal at birth or conversion, but because God sustains the soul and will raise all people at the resurrection.

Immortality is a gift, not a natural human trait:

“Who only hath immortality.” — 1 Timothy 6:16

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(God alone possesses immortality by nature.)

Believers receive immortality at the resurrection, not before:

“When this mortal shall have put on immortality…” — 1 Corinthians 15:54

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So being “quickened” means made alive with Christ, not made incapable of dying or falling away.

MatthewG said:

So being “quickened” means made alive with Christ, not made incapable of dying or falling away.

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"quicken" means to "revive", "restore".

The word "quicken" is found in 13 places in the kjv bible.

Stumpmaster said:

Strong's Concordance has it thoroughly expanded for edification without bias.
G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.
Total KJV occurrences: 42

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Strong’s Concordance is an exhaustive index to the words of the King James Version (KJV). Strong’s definitions are not comprehensive meanings but “glosses” - brief one or two word meanings primarily intended to help the user locate where the KJV translates said word into English.

Looking at strongs below, it provides glosses for genea - generation, time, age, nation, time. Then it tells you where in the KJV where you can find those glosses.


Strong’s Definitions
γενεά geneá, ghen-eh-ah'; from (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):—age, generation, nation, time.

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KJV Translation Count — Total: 42x
The KJV translates Strong's G1074 in the following manner: generation (37x), time (2x), age (2x), nation (1x).


Strongs concordance indexes genea in the KJV as nation, but not in Matthew 24:34. Instead, Strongs concordance indexes genea as generation in Matthew 24:34.

To cherrypick the gloss of “nation” from strongs concordance, while ignoring how the concordance indexes “nation”, and then applying the cherrypicked gloss to genea in Matthew 24:34, is an improper use of a concordance.

claninja said:

Strong’s Concordance is an exhaustive index to the words of the King James Version (KJV). Strong’s definitions are not comprehensive meanings but “glosses” - brief one or two word meanings primarily intended to help the user locate where the KJV translates said word into English.

Looking at strongs below, it provides glosses for genea - generation, time, age, nation, time. Then it tells you where in the KJV where you can find those glosses.


Strong’s Definitions
γενεά geneá, ghen-eh-ah'; from (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):—age, generation, nation, time.

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KJV Translation Count — Total: 42x
The KJV translates Strong's G1074 in the following manner: generation (37x), time (2x), age (2x), nation (1x).


Strongs concordance indexes genea in the KJV as nation, but not in Matthew 24:34. Instead, Strongs concordance indexes genea as generation in Matthew 24:34.

To cherrypick the gloss of “nation” from strongs concordance, while ignoring how the concordance indexes “nation”, and then applying the cherrypicked gloss to genea in Matthew 24:34, is an improper use of a concordance.

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I suggest you do more research on the subject of confirmation bias, as your comments err strongly towards it. As the name states, Strong's Concordance is a strong and reliable resource provided by God Himself through His gifting of its author.

Davy said:

Do you believe man's Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine? The Hyper-Grace crowd teaches against God's Word when it speaks of a believer on Christ that later falls away. If their soul was 'quickened', i.e., made immortal when they first believed on Jesus, then how is it that God's Word speaks of those who fall away from Christ? And Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 about the "strong delusion" issued the Church a major warning about that falling away to "that Wicked" one he mentioned there, the "man of sin", which will be a coming false-Messiah playing our Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

We have to be very careful when reading Apostle Paul's expressions, because he taught Christ's Salvation often in 'past tense' mode, when the main event of the falling away by the coming false-Messiah still had not happened yet in his day.

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I believe the 'saved' and the 'sealed' are two different groups. We see it in many Scriptures but the letter to the Laodiceans (Rev 3) makes it quite clear ... the 'lukewarm' are a different group to the 'overcomers'.

PeterAndroz said:

Do you believe the 'sealed' in Revelation are the 'sealed' in Eph 4:30 ?

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If you mean Rev 7:4, my answer is no ... they are Jews

And I heard the number of them which were sealed:
and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand
of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

PeterAndroz said:

Yes, Rev 7:4 is Rev
Do you believe the Eph 4:30 SEALED BELIEVERS will be anywhere in Rev ?

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I agree with those who see the rapture of those who are sealed (during the gentile church ages) foreshadowed by John being caught up to heaven in Rev 4:1

PeterAndroz said:

I like to try & understand why believers believe what they do hence the 3rd degree interogation.
In the flesh, do you believe there will be Eph4:30 sealed believers in Rev ?

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My understanding is that the elect believers (the "overcomers" who are sealed by the Holy Spirit during the church ages - Rev 2 & 3) are taken in the rapture (Rev 4:1) ... they return to the earth to live in the Millennium (Rev 19 & 20).

Those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit in the time between the Rapture and the Millennium are Jews converted under the ministry of the two witnesses (Rev 11).

Stumpmaster said:

I suggest you do more research on the subject of confirmation bias, as your comments err strongly towards it. As the name states, Strong's Concordance is a strong and reliable resource provided by God Himself through His gifting of its author.

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I suggest you do research on how a concordance is actually used.

Strong’s concordance indexes genea as generation in Matthew 24:34 . See link from strongs concordance online from blue letter Bible : (Genesis 1:1 (KJV))

Do you agree with Strong’s decision to index genea as generation in Matthew 24:34?