Why Will "all nations" attack Israel?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Battle of "Har Megiddo" (at the plain of Megiddo) is noted in Revelation 16:16.
Bible says "Armageddon" because the Greek alphabet has no H.
Bible says "Armageddon" because the Greek alphabet has no H.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Why Will "all nations" attack Israel?
Because…
For 10 Centuries, during Jesus’ millennial reign, Generations of Mortals will Live and Die having experienced…
Gods Word…
Establishing Nations…
Building Cities…
Comfort…
Needs met…
Wants met…
Cordial Behaviors among People and Nations…
(a sort of utopia) Of No Wars and Peace on Earth.
THEN…Toward the Ending of the Millennial Reign Of King Christ Jesus…
Satan, “his angels” having been Absent from the face of the Earth…Are loosed from their bondage and once Again allowed to roam the Earth and “Influence the Minds of mortal men of their respective nation and their mortal kings of their nation.”
It will be an historical REPEAT of Satan’s promotions, instigations…
Tickling the Ears of Mortal men…with False Allegations Against God…AND…False Claims that “he” is the True god.
Mortal men, WILL (per history) once again Fall for Satan’s Lies…and All the Worlds Nations Will Plot to Overthrow King Christ Jesus’ Throne and Kingdom.
What will King Christ Jesus Do?
Nothing.
What will God in Heaven Do?
Destroy the mortals with Fire from Heaven.
And
Satan and “his” angels?
Sent to the LOF.
Rev 20:
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and [/B]the false prophet [/B]are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Glory to God,
Taken
It shouldn't be difficult to imagine why all the nations of the world would attack Israel. Just look at all the villainization of Israel/Jews today. They're blamed for every evil in the world. The nations of the world will believe they are doing a good thing by destroying Israel, just as Hitler believed he was doing a good thing by killing the Jews.
What is really happening between Israel and the Palestinians is the result of a generational family feud that goes all the way back to Genesis (they are genetically related). They both are fighting for the promises of God, and all the nations of the world will be dragged into this dispute. It's already happening. The fact that such a tiny piece of land occupies so much of the world's attention and elicits such strong emotions is evidence of that. What we are seeing is the physical manifestation of a spiritual struggle. Ultimately, Jesus is the one who will return to settle this feud once and for all.
What is really happening between Israel and the Palestinians is the result of a generational family feud that goes all the way back to Genesis (they are genetically related). They both are fighting for the promises of God, and all the nations of the world will be dragged into this dispute. It's already happening. The fact that such a tiny piece of land occupies so much of the world's attention and elicits such strong emotions is evidence of that. What we are seeing is the physical manifestation of a spiritual struggle. Ultimately, Jesus is the one who will return to settle this feud once and for all.
Why are we speaking as if it is yet future? Because it is the present reality... <smile> As Paul says, "...we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God..." (Ephesians 6:12-13)
Welllllllllll, for about 20 now... <smile> Two earthly millennia... <smile> Yeah, God's "time" and our time are not the same...
Have, and for now will also... So have experienced, and will continue to experience, for now...
Well, yes, but life is not all peaches and cream... it's pretty hard. <smile> But God told us it would be, many times, particularly to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3, and just as relevantly what Jesus told us all in John 16:33, that "in the world (we) will have tribulation." But in Him we can have peace, because... He has overcome the world...
There will be nothing resembling any "utopia"... until Jesus returns, and executes the final judgment and sends the unrepentant away, and establishes His eternal Kingdom and the New Heaven and New Earth.. Only then will He wipe every tear from our eyes and all sorrow and sighing flee away. Until then, though... here we are...
Right, when Jesus returns, and defeats sin and death.
This will be after the close of the present age and Christ's (present) millennial reign. The time ~ God's time, not ours ~ in which, as Paul says in Romans 11, a) the partial hardening now on Israel is removed, and b) the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in... and these are not sequential one way or the other but simultaneous... and therefore all Israel is saved.
Hmmm... yes, but in the sense that those who have exchanged the truth for a lie (Romans 1) will continue in that way...
Yeah, again... <smile> As David says, "Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed..." This is a very present reality.
Well, not nothing... <chuckles> See above... Even now, it at least sometimes, and maybe often, seem to us like He's doing nothing, but-tuh... <smile> I mean, we have His Spirit, of course, and He told us He would be with us "always, even unto the end of the age," in Matthew 28:20, and so He is...
Ah, well you're talking here about after the "thousand years," God's "millennium" (Revelation 20:2-3), has ended. So, you're right, but Jesus is the "fire from Heaven" (Revelation 20:9), and He will come on "the clouds" (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 1:7, 14:14-16), which is to say in judgment... "Our God is a consuming fire" (Deuteronomy 4:24; Hebrews 10:27, 12:29)...
Sure, so into eternal judgment, yes. And the unrepentant ~ those on Jesus's left in the final judgement (Matthew 25:41-46, having been resurrected to judgment (John 5:29), as opposed to those resurrected to eternal life (John 5:28) ~ will follow... <shudder> These will not stand in the judgment; they will not stand the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1).
Absolutely.
Let the "flaming" commence... again... I guess... <chuckles>
Grace and peace to you, Taken.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Why?
Because it IS a future Event.
Today People DO wrestle Against;
Powers, greater than themselves.
Today ALL people are NOT Against the Lord God.
Today King Christ Jesus Has NOT yet claimed His Inheritance / promised Land, Throne.
Today ALL Nations Have NOT come Against Christ Lord Jesus’ Earthly Kingdom and Throne.
Taken
Well-Known Member
I expressly said… King Christ Jesus, reigning.
He shall reign ON Earth…
His Holy Angels Servants are With Him IN His
earthly Kingdom.
His holy Immortal Servants are With Him IN His earthly Kingdom.
His MORTAL believing People ARE IN their respective Nations…ruled by their “kings”, who are Ruled “BY”, the Laws of Their Supreme King, Christ Jesus.
“cordial peaceful relations among all nations, spirits, Christ KING and peoples”, for 1,000 years.
[/QUOTE]
All who ARE and “Came With” King Christ Jesus; TO Earth…
ARE…
“Occupants” of His Earthly Kingdom…
ARE…
His Holy Angels…
ARE…
Are His Faithful, WHO Have Already BEEN, Bodily Dead, Soul Saved, Spirit Born Again, Risen up Immortal IN their Glorified Body…
…Without Sorrows, Tears, Crying!
Until THEN…
*Saved And Quickened Mortals ARE living ON Earth….dealing with Tribulations of men against men.
* Bodys of the Dead IN Christ, are in their Graves.
* Their saved souls and Quickened Spirits are With God IN Heaven.
* Christ Jesus’ Holy Angels ARE Serving Him IN Heaven AND ON Earth.
* No people have Yet been risen in their glorified Bodies.
Which is exactly what I was Speaking About…
That Which HAS NOT Yet Occurred.
Thank you.
To you as well.
Glory to God,
Taken
Not merely future. Past, present, and future.
Right, and this is the spiritual war ~ which is not "spiritual" in the sense that it is not real ~ going on all around us... right now. Has been, is, and will continue, until Jesus returns.
Not all people, no. But "the nations," in the true sense that it is meant throughout the Bible. There is God's Israel... and there are... all other nations. And that's people groups, not physical nation-states. There are really only two kinds of people, Taken, God's people (His elect, those in Christ, Who is God's true Israel), so those in Christ... and those not. At present, many who are not in Christ will be at some point before Christ returns... God is not through building His Israel yet.
Then why do you ~ rightly, of course ~ call Him King? That's a rhetorical question, really. Christ Jesus is the Greater David. King over God's Israel (which surely is not the nation-state we call Israel today). Christ is ~ is, right now ~ the firstborn... so preeminent over, every bit in the sense that King David was except in the greater sense... over God's Israel. This throne you speak of is more than you know, or at least intimate. It is a position of power. So, in David's case his position as King then over what we would call "lesser Israel," and in this way he was a type, a shadow, of the true forever King to come, and in Jesus's case the true forever King ~ since His coming, now, and forever ~ over what we would call greater Israel, which includes an innumerable multitude from every tongue, tribe, and people group... Jew and Gentile alike, God's elect, who are in Christ and thus true Jews of God.
Yes they have... <smile> Just not in the way many think... Like John said, "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour" (1 John 2:8-9).
Ahhh, "earthly..." <smile> You don't mean to be, I know, but you are making the eternal, which is still to come, into or synonymous with the temporal, which is to make it the reverse of what it is and will be. Another rhetorical question, but... Well, Jesus said... told Pontius Pilot that... "(His) kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36), so... why would Jesus's Kingdom and/or seat of power be, well, much smaller in the future than it was then or is now? <smile> Well it wasn't, isn't, and won't be, of course; it's that, well, one day it will come to full fruition. This is the simultaneous now and the not yet. We can say that about a great many things in the Bible. Examples are many, but the following seem the most relevant to this particular conversation:
- Salvation... we have been saved, so we have eternal life now, but we are also being saved so we will ~ will, not might ~ have it in full.
- Kingdom... Jesus said even in His day that the Kingdom was then here... and still is, of course, but bigger now... we know, though, that it will not be here in its fullness until the King returns (Lord of the Rings reference), after the final judgment, when sin and death are finally and fully defeated, eternity begins, and He ushers in the New Heaven and New Earth.
Grace and peace to you.
Hmmmm... Well I agree... except for... "earthly." <smile> See above. I mean we'll all be on this planet, but... <smile>
No, we have peace now, in Christ Jesus, Who is our peace. But as we all can see, the world is far from totally peaceful, and this will remain the case even to the end of God's millennium. Here again is the now and the not yet...
Right, those who are deceased who were saved, born again of the Spirit during their lives... but they are not in their glorified body... yet. But they will be, as will we... <smile> ...when the King returns. Those not in Christ will be resurrected also, but... <shudder> But this is the second resurrection, which is physical and general, what Jesus speaks of in John 5:28-29... and still yet future.
Agree...
Ummmm, bodies... <smile> But yes, agree...
Agree...
Ummm, well I agree, but you literally just said, "...WHO Have Already BEEN, Bodily Dead, Soul Saved, Spirit Born Again, Risen up Immortal IN their Glorified Body." Are you not contradicting yourself here?
Agree...
Yes, He is reigning. Another rhetorical question (I like those, as did Paul...): Who is your King, Taken? Who is... right now... your King? He is our King. Now. In this present age, which is synonymous with God's millennium as it is called in Revelation 20. Right now is His millennial reign. This is the time in which God is building His Israel. And one day it will be complete. This is what will bring this current age to a close, and will prompt "Satan's little season," and... the return of the King. And in short order:
- the second (general, physical) resurrection (as opposed to the first, which was individual and specific only to God's elect and spiritual, what Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2,,, "when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ,,, and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...")
- the final defeat of Satan
- the final Judgment
- and the ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth... and His eternal reign, which of course will have no end.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
It is taking place as we speak
Turkey has united with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan
More will soon join as they see the weakness of the USA and they finally have the weapons.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Disagree.
Sure.
Yes.
Sure.
No. Gentiles are not Israel.
Not in dispute.
Likely.
And during the Trib, men will submit and God will save them.
Building Israel?
Israel is an Established People.
Jesus is not “finished…saving”.
God is not “finished…saving”.
Because, When He returns, that is His Title.
David was David.
Jesus IS Jesus.
Jesus Shall Rule over all Nations As well as His Kingdom.
Not a Secret… the Promised Land is Jesus’ inheritance and the Land of Jesus’ Future Kingdom.
Jesus’ Throne, is an Everlasting Throne, God Established, located in JERUSALEM.
First to sit on that Throne was David. Last to sit on that Throne is Jesus. Also His inheritance.
Not news, or in dispute.
David was king over Israel.
Jesus’ Future Kingdom and Position is King over The World.
The last hour…is simply…a reference to the last Days and the Last Offering of Salvation…
In brief…God Saves, Jesus Saves…No other offering for Salvation Shall be Offered.
Smaller “than now”…?
The majority of people who have ever lived, shall not be saved.
Have you ever SEEN a land map of the Promised Land…and compared that to The enormous size of the rest of Earth?
You are confused.
They who ARE Saved, ARE saved. period.
They who believe, but Not Saved, ARE Not Saved, yet May “hope” to become saved.
The Kingdom Jesus Inherits, was Established long ago…and presently “parts” of multiple Nations.
The New Heaven and New Earth…Shall Be without Borders/ Barriers, and Gods Entire Kingdom…and the Seat of Governance, Throne, IN a New Jerusalem.
Future, not in dispute.
To you as well.
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
Disagree.
Many Departed souls and spirits ARE not on this Earth.
The Raptured Will Not Be On this Earth.
They Return to Earth, WITH Jesus….
Future for them to Leave Earth.
Future for them to Return to Earth.
Inner peace, not in dispute.
Not in dispute.
Disagree.
Exactly our dispute.
Now, tribulations among men.
Future.
7 years or Tribulations Sent from Heaven.
Future.
Millennial Kingdom, 1,000 years of peace among mortal men and no presence of unholy angels.
Correct.
Future, Rapture, body glorified raised, soul imparted, spirit imparted, meet Their Lord in the clouds above the Earth…
Return to Earth With Jesus, occupy His Kingdom.
They Saved by Christ Jesus, Return to Earth With Him.
Actually…those “Saved by God”, are resurrected…First Resurrection, Glorified bodies.
THEN the unsaved Resurrected, Second / Last Resurrection.
No.
Every human body MUST Die…Before the soul can be saved, the spirit born again and the Body raised glorified…
Jesus’ Offering was for men to BE Truthfully, by Heartful confession FREELY WILLING to Pledge, Vow, Give their bodily life unto Death For their True Belief in the Lord God…
Jesus’ Offering was for willing men to agree for their Body to be “Crucified with Jesus’ Body”….
Which, means (yet though their body lives) Spiritually…
Their body has fulfilled the Requirement of Bodily Death (and how and why) some men ARE walking about in their mortal body’s, and ARE soul saved and spirit quickened.
And FYI… a mans body Spiritually Crucified with Jesus’ Body … thus requires to be raised in a Spiritual Body … and they…
Temporarily Occupy Jesus’ Risen Glorified Body…
In brief, they are Called…. IN Christ .
Disagree.
Presently I have a Lord God and Savior.
I Trust Jesus Shall BE my King, After He Returns to Earth to Claim His Inheritance.
Disagree.
Knowing what Shall Be, is one thing.
What Shall Be, has not Yet Occurred.
Bit by Bit knowledge is Revealed, Before Events Occur.
Pretending Events Have Occurred, because you Trust the knowledge they WILL occur… IS…PRETENDING and Not True.
Same to you.
Glory to God,
Taken
"The nations"... Biblical, yes, but such a misunderstood Scriptural thing/concept...
Grace and peace to you, David.
Yes, I know... that's quite clear. And... it's okay. <smile>
God's Israel consists of people of all ethnicities. All whom God calls, Jew and Gentile; we are all one in Christ Jesus, Who, as I said, is God's Israel:
You know of Hosea, I'm quite sure. God says through Hosea, "When Israel was a child, I loved Him, and out of Egypt I called My Son" (Hosea 11:1). And, as we read in Matthew 213-15, after Mary gave birth to Jesus, Joseph took his young family to Egypt, fleeing from Herod, of course, when Jesus was about two years old. And there Matthew says ~ in verse 15, referring directly to Hosea's prophecy and Hosea 11:1 specifically ~ "This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, 'Out of Egypt I called My Son.' "
As I said above, we are all one in Christ Jesus:
- "...we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another" (Romans 12:5)
- "just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body ~ Jews or Greeks, slaves or free ~ and all were made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:12-13).
- "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross..." (Ephesians 2:13-16)
- "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28)
- Jesus is the Son ~ capital 'S' ~ of God, and as such God's Israel
- Since we are all in Christ and led by the Spirit, we are also sons ~ small-case 's' ~ of God, and thus Israel
So... again... <smile> Jesus is the true Israel, the faithful Israel who succeeds where old covenant Israel failed. Like ancient Israel, He came up out of Egypt, passed through the waters, and was tested in the wilderness (Matthew 2:13–15; 3:13–4:11; Exodus 12:40–42; 14:1–31; 16:4). Unlike old covenant Israel, however, Jesus passed the test. He is therefore worthy to be called God’s Son because of who He is in His deity and because of what He accomplished in His humanity. And the good news of the gospel tells us that we can be the true Israel of God as well. If we are in Christ, we share in the privileges and relationship He enjoys as God’s true Son. We are not sons of God by nature; rather, we are sons of God by adoption, His beloved children in Christ. As such, we inherit all of the promises given to old covenant Israel. Those promises of God that Israel would rule over her enemies and enjoy abundant covenant blessings (for example, Isaiah 14:1–2) ~ those promises are for all of God’s people, the true Israel of God consisting of Jews and Gentiles who are united to Christ by faith alone. In Him we are the true Israel of God, heirs of the glorious destiny promised to God’s old covenant people (Zephaniah 3:14–20).
Very true. But this is not future only. <smile> People are submitting to God and He is saving them even now...
Absolutely.
Yes, but not complete yet... <smile> As you said,
Ah, well... <smile> ...in one sense He is, but another not so much...
Right, so, yes, God is still building His Israel... bringing it to completion, as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26 and Ephesians 2:11-22. so,
the now and the not yet... yet again... Even Abraham was "looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose Designer and Builder is God." And as Paul, writing to Gentile Christians in Ephesus, says in Ephesians 2, "you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the Household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."
Hmmm, so Jesus is not your King now? <smile> Only "when He returns"...? Hmmm...
Right, but David was a type, a shadow, of Jesus, the true forever King to come. And David knew that, as we can easily see in, for example, Psalm 110, specifically verse 1... "The Lord says to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
The true Promised Land is the whole earth, as Jesus says in Matthew 5:5. We will not be... confined... <chuckles> ...in the New Heaven and New Earth to a tiny sliver of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea... That tiny sliver of land was the Old Covenant type/shadow of the true promised land. I mean here we're getting into the relationship between the Old Testament and the New Testament. To put it very succinctly, Jesus Himself said the whole Old Testament ~ Moses and the prophets ~ was about Him (Luke 24, Matthew 5). And we see it in Hebrews 1:1-2, also. In the Old Testament, God spoke differently... through different means... but He did not say different things.
Sure; agreed... and John speaks of it in the present tense, as does the writer of Hebrews: "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:1-2)
<chuckles> Yes... <smile>
<chuckles>
Okay, yes, and past, too... <chuckles> And there will be a great ramping up of this tribulation near the time of Christ's return... when Israel is complete (see above), after the "thousand years" of Revelation 20, in... "Satan's little season..." when he is "released from his prison." And as Jesus says, such will be "great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be... but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" (Matthew 24:22-23)
We have them now.
Now. Since Pentecost and up to the time of the completion of God's Israel.
Hmmm, yes and no... <smile> We certainly don't have world peace right now... <chuckles> ...but we have peace in Christ, Who is our peace in this time of tribulation. You know, I'm a little... trepidacious <smile> ...in asking this question, but what gives you the idea... what passage or verse in Scripture gives you the idea there will be world peace during God's millennium?
(1 of 2)
(2 0f 2)
Why do people not believe, Taken? <smile> Oh, because they don't choose to believe, but choose otherwise. Well, yes, but there's more to it than that... <smile> Jesus tells a group of Jews why they do not believe in John 8:44, and then another group of Jews in John 10:25-27... John says, in John 1, "to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God," which is to say that we received Him and believed in His name and were given the right to become children of God because we were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God. And this is exactly what Jesus is saying in John 10:25-27. And Paul says the same in Romans 9, "...in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him Who calls... He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Grace and peace to you, Taken.
This is a conflation. Even we Christians who are alive in body now are... have been... born again, and so are saved and have eternal life...
- "...God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ..." (Paul, Ephesians 2)
- "...My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life..." (Jesus, John 10)
Hmmmm... well all will be resurrected in this sense... As Jesus says, there will be an hour when "all who are in the tombs will hear His..." ~ Jesus's of course, that of the Son of Man ~ "...voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
Sure.
Agree, but we are saved now also, in that our ultimate salvation is already accomplished ~ by Jesus in His work on the cross; "It is finished!" (John 19:30) ~ and ensured ~ "...He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Paul, Philippians 1:6) and we have been "born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (Peter, 1 Peter 1:3-5).
Ah, there is is... free will... <chuckles> I mean, yes, we have free will, certainly; nobody is denying that. But it's not about the will... Our salvation does not depend on our free will or the exercising of our free will.
Why do people not believe, Taken? <smile> Oh, because they don't choose to believe, but choose otherwise. Well, yes, but there's more to it than that... <smile> Jesus tells a group of Jews why they do not believe in John 8:44, and then another group of Jews in John 10:25-27... John says, in John 1, "to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God," which is to say that we received Him and believed in His name and were given the right to become children of God because we were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God. And this is exactly what Jesus is saying in John 10:25-27. And Paul says the same in Romans 9, "...in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him Who calls... He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
<chuckles>
And we have been. This idea of a "spiritual body" is so misunderstood. It is not woodenly a different body altogether. We Christians understand spiritual things because we have been born again of the Spirit and thus are spiritually alive... we have this new spirit given to us by God and thus... well, you know, I think, what God says through Ezekiel in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:25-27... "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." This is what God does for us in our being born again of the Spirit, and has been done for we who are Christians and in Christ.
<sigh> So we... You know, I'm not even going to say what I was going to say, here... <chuckles> We do not occupy anyone's body... <chuckles> Goodness gracious. <smile>
Yes, all we Christians do... <smile>
Ah, but you don't think He is yet. That's... troubling. He is, we just don't see Him face to face yet...
I know. <smile> And... it's okay. <smile>
Nobody's pretending... <smile>
Grace and peace to you, Taken.
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