The Two Anointed Ones = The Two Witnesses

TribulationSigns said:

Instead, you suddenly moved into Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Iraq, the United States-led coalition in 2003, and even 1926 AD. What? Are you kidding me?! Where does Daniel himself identify Iraq, 1926, or the 2003 Coalition of the Willing? You are importing historical/geographical events into the prophecy while accusing others of doing essentially the same thing?

And then you jump another 1,000+ years into the future and declare that two literal individuals will be killed in literal Jerusalem. Again, where does Revelation 11 itself establish your timetable to begin with anyway!

I am asking you to do something much simpler: let Scripture interpret its own symbols.

Explain from Scripture WHY Daniel sees four different beasts, what their distinguishing characteristics signify, and why Revelation 13 brings the leopard, bear, and lion together into one beast.

That is the question! I am still waiting for a direct biblical answer rather than another historical/geographical construction.

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Perhaps if you allowed the scriptures to provide the answers to you, then you would have understood that the answers can be found in the scriptures, probably not in the format or factural understanding that you are looking for..

Jay Ross said:

Perhaps if you allowed the scriptures to provide the answers to you, then you would have understood that the answers can be found in the scriptures, probably not in the format or factural understanding that you are looking for..

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Jay, please stop assuming that because I reject your interpretation, I somehow do not “allow the Scriptures to provide the answers.” That is precisely what I am doing—comparing Scripture with Scripture and allowing God’s Word to interpret its own symbols.

What I am NOT doing is starting with secular history, physical empires, modern countries, dates such as 1926, or the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and then working backward to fit those events into prophetic Scripture.

If Scripture identifies and defines the symbols, then show it from Scripture. That is all I have been asking you to do.

So instead of questioning my understanding, answer the question: Why four different beasts in Daniel 7, what do their characteristics signify, and why are the leopard, bear, and lion combined into ONE beast in Revelation 13?

Scripture interpreting Scripture—not history interpreting Scripture. That is the difference. Selah!

Earburner said:

I was simply referencing the fact that I too "compare spiritual things with spiritual".

No! Its Not that at all. We both understand our interpretations between each other, stating that we both are seeking the Lord's Truth by "comparing spiritual things with spiritual".

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Time out, Earburner, I understand that you believe you are “comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” My point is that claiming the method does not prove you have applied the method correctly.

That is precisely where we differ. Scripture must interpret Scripture in harmony with its context and with what Scripture actually defines, not simply because we believe the Spirit has revealed a particular connection to us.

And quoting 1 John 2:27 does not make our interpretations immune from examination. The same Spirit who teaches us inspired the Scriptures by which our interpretations must be tested.

So yes, compare spiritual things with spiritual—but the comparison itself must be demonstrated from Scripture. That is where I believe your interpretation has failed.

Selah!

TribulationSigns said:

Jay, please stop assuming that because I reject your interpretation, I somehow do not “allow the Scriptures to provide the answers.” That is precisely what I am doing—comparing Scripture with Scripture and allowing God’s Word to interpret its own symbols.

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Perhaps what you are doing is not considering a wider compilation of the scriptures to form your understanding. Jeremaih 50 gives us a timeline that is centred during the timeframe that the Israelites begin seeking God. In Jer 50 it speaks of a King from the North, with many other kings', invade the Land of Babylon. Initially it was the Guld War. The Gulf War was a 1990–1991-armed conflict between Iraq and a 42-country coalition led by the United States of America, triggered by Iraq's invasion and annexation of Kuwait on August 2, 1990. Some 12 years later we had the Iraq War. The Iraq War was a protracted armed conflict that lasted from 2003 to 2011. The Iraq invasion was part of the Bush administration's broader war on terror, launched in response to the September 11 attacks. In October 2002, the US Congress passed a bipartisan resolution granting Bush authority to use military force against Iraq. The war began on March 20, 2003, when the US, joined by the UK, Australia, and Poland, initiated a "shock and awe" bombing campaign. Coalition forces launched a ground invasion, defeating Iraqi forces and toppling the Ba'athist regime. Saddam Hussein was captured in 2003 and executed in 2006.

In Jer 51 we are told this: -

Jeremiah 51:13-16: -

13 O you who dwell by many waters,
Abundant in treasures,
Your end has come,
The measure of your covetousness. [1]
14 The Lord of hosts has sworn by Himself:
"Surely, I will fill you with men, who devour much,
And they shall lift up a shout against you."
15 He has made the earth by His power;
He has established the world by His wisdom,
And stretched out the heaven by His understanding.
16 When He utters His voice —
There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
"He causes the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightnings for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.[2]"

TribulationSigns said:

What I am NOT doing is starting with secular history, physical empires, modern countries, dates such as 1926, or the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and then working backward to fit those events into prophetic Scripture.

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You have made an assumption that I started with Secular History and then look for Scripture to show that the secular history is also found in the Scritpures.

Actually, I started with Scripture and then reflected on what Secular History fitted that portion of Biblical Prophecy.

In Revelation 16:17-21 we are told this: -
Rev 16:19-21: - 19 The great city was split into three parts, (1948 by resolurion of the UN) and the cities of the nations fell, (WW1 conquest of the Otterman Empire) and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.( 1926 when Britian and France established a number of nations in the Middle Easts.) 20 And every island fled away, and no mountains, i.e. religions, were to be found.

TribulationSigns said:

If Scripture identifies and defines the symbols, then show it from Scripture. That is all I have been asking you to do.

So instead of questioning my understanding, answer the question: Why four different beasts in Daniel 7, what do their characteristics signify, and why are the leopard, bear, and lion combined into ONE beast in Revelation 13?

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Actually, in Daniel 7:1-12, there are the four beasts that are judged in heaven around the year 2044-2045 AD which is still to come. Then in Daniel 7:19 around 1,000 year or so later, there is only one Beast described, in Rev 11, 13, 17, 18 and 19, all describe a four facetted Beast.

Sometimes we get lost in the symbology and complicate our understanding of Scripture.

Shalom

---

[1] It is my opinion that God is speaking of the member nations of the Coalition of the willing, lead by the USA President who invaded Iraq/the Land of Babylon to heal the land in their own strength instead of destroying it, in 2003.
[2] It is my view that Jeremaih is speaking of the issues associated with climate change which God is also in control of.

Jay Ross said:

Perhaps what you are doing is not considering a wider compilation of the scriptures to form your understanding. Jeremaih 50 gives us a timeline that is centred during the timeframe that the Israelites begin seeking God. In Jer 50 it speaks of a King from the North, with many other kings', invade the Land of Babylon. Initially it was the Guld War. The Gulf War was a 1990–1991-armed conflict between Iraq and a 42-country coalition led by the United States of America, triggered by Iraq's invasion and annexation of Kuwait on August 2, 1990. Some 12 years later we had the Iraq War. The Iraq War was a protracted armed conflict that lasted from 2003 to 2011. The Iraq invasion was part of the Bush administration's broader war on terror, launched in response to the September 11 attacks. In October 2002, the US Congress passed a bipartisan resolution granting Bush authority to use military force against Iraq. The war began on March 20, 2003, when the US, joined by the UK, Australia, and Poland, initiated a "shock and awe" bombing campaign. Coalition forces launched a ground invasion, defeating Iraqi forces and toppling the Ba'athist regime. Saddam Hussein was captured in 2003 and executed in 2006.

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Jay, Jeremiah 50–51 does NOT say anything about the Gulf War of 1990–91, George W. Bush, September 11, the 2003 invasion of Iraq, or the Coalition of the Willing. Not one of those identifications appears in the text.

You are doing exactly what I have been warning against: reading modern world events and physical wars back into biblical prophecy and then presenting those connections as though Scripture itself established them.

Where does Jeremiah identify the “king from the north” as a modern American president? Where does it identify the invading nations as the Gulf War coalition? Where does Jeremiah give 1990, 2003, or any of your modern timetable?

What a joke. It does NOT! Those connections come from your interpretation of world history, not from Scripture interpreting Scripture.

So telling me that I need a “wider compilation of Scripture” does not solve the problem. A larger collection of verses does not validate an interpretation when the crucial connections are being supplied from modern news and secular history.

That is precisely the kind of private interpretation I reject. Show the connections from Scripture itself, not CNN, history books, and modern warfare. Otherwise, this is speculation dressed up as prophecy.

Jay Ross said:

You have made an assumption that I started with Secular History and then look for Scripture to show that the secular history is also found in the Scritpures.

Actually, I started with Scripture and then reflected on what Secular History fitted that portion of Biblical Prophecy.

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Jay, that distinction does not rescue your interpretation.

Whether you started with secular history and searched Scripture for a match, or started with Scripture and searched secular history for something that “fitted,” you still used secular history to supply identifications that the biblical text itself never gives.

Jeremiah does not say, “Gulf War,” “1990,” “United States,” “George Bush,” or “2003 invasion of Iraq.” YOU supplied those connections.

Finding a historical event that appears to “fit” a prophecy is not the same thing as demonstrating from Scripture that the prophecy refers to that event. Otherwise, anyone could search 2,000 years of history until they find something that seems to fit.

That is my point: show me Scripture interpreting and identifying the prophecy—not secular history completing the interpretation for you. Biblical history!

Jay Ross said:

In Revelation 16:17-21 we are told this: -
Rev 16:19-21: - 19 The great city was split into three parts, (1948 by resolurion of the UN) and the cities of the nations fell, (WW1 conquest of the Otterman Empire) and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.( 1926 when Britian and France established a number of nations in the Middle Easts.) 20 And every island fled away, and no mountains, i.e. religions, were to be found.

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Jay, you just demonstrated my point again.

Revelation 16:19 does NOT say:

“three parts = UN resolution of 1948”
“cities of the nations fell = WWI/Ottoman Empire”
“Babylon remembered = Britain and France in 1926”

Gee-whiz! Those private interpretations in parentheses are your additions to the text, not "{Scripture interpreting Scripture."

Why? Because where does Revelation—or ANY Scripture—identify those symbols with 1948, the United Nations, WWI, the Ottoman Empire, Britain, France, or 1926? Show the biblical cross-references that establish those identifications.

You cannot simply attach modern twentieth-century events to prophetic phrases because you think they “fit” and then call that biblical interpretation.

That is speculation based on secular history, not Scripture interpreting Scripture. You are proving the very point I have been making all along.

I wont response anymore with the rest of your nonsense. Your Eschatology doctrine and interpretation are definitely bad!
And I still see that you STILL have NOT answer the question that I have asked you several times: Why four different beasts in Daniel 7, what do their characteristics signify, and why are the leopard, bear, and lion combined into ONE beast in Revelation 13?

I am NOT impressed with how you handle the Scripture and fail to provide biblical answers honestly! Move on!

Selah!

TribulationSigns said:

Jay, Jeremiah 50–51 does NOT say anything about the Gulf War of 1990–91, George W. Bush, September 11, the 2003 invasion of Iraq, or the Coalition of the Willing. Not one of those identifications appears in the text.

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What is meant by the expression, "having eyes to see and ears to hear?"

In the Sixth Bowl Judgement, I am confident that the 9/11 event can be identified as the three frog spirits going out for all of the world to see and to eventually draw the kings of the earth to assemble at Armageddon. This Sixth bowl Judgement is still unfolding today as the three frog like spirits are going out to the kings of the earth to draw them to assemble at Armageddon to be judged for their part in the final acts of the Little Horn to trample God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts.

It is my understanding that the Kings of the earth will assemble at Armageddon around the year 2044-2045 AD to be judged as Isaiah 24:21-22 foretells.

While I was in Kathmandu in 2001 AD what confirmed for me that I was witnessing the partial fulfilment of Revelation 16:12-16 was that all of the earth witnessed the three frog like spirits doing signs and wonders and that these signs and wonders would draw the kings of the earth to Assemble at Armageddon for one last tilt at destroying the nation of Israel before the end of the Daniel 8:13-14 prophetic timespan of 2,300 years. In Luke 14:31-32 Jesus describes the Judgement of the Kings of the earth and Israel's seeking of God's terms for their repentance so as He/God can begin gathering them to Himself and begin teaching them on the foundational truths that will come down out of heaven during the time of these kings and will become the largest religion on the earth after that time.

This is what the Holy Spirit is revealing to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear what God's prophetic words are telling us today.

Sadly, God's prophetic words do not give us chapter and verse as you would like them to be, by identifying all of the players that will be involved in His end time prophecies.

May the Lord provide you with spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear so that you can see God's plans unfold before you.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

What is meant by the expression, "having eyes to see and ears to hear?"

In the Sixth Bowl Judgement, I am confident that the 9/11 event can be identified as the three frog spirits going out for all of the world to see and to eventually draw the kings of the earth to assemble at Armageddon. This Sixth bowl Judgement is still unfolding today as the three frog like spirits are going out to the kings of the earth to draw them to assemble at Armageddon to be judged for their part in the final acts of the Little Horn to trample God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts.

It is my understanding that the Kings of the earth will assemble at Armageddon around the year 2044-2045 AD to be judged as Isaiah 24:21-22 foretells.

While I was in Kathmandu in 2001 AD what confirmed for me that I was witnessing the partial fulfilment of Revelation 16:12-16 was that all of the earth witnessed the three frog like spirits doing signs and wonders and that these signs and wonders would draw the kings of the earth to Assemble at Armageddon for one last tilt at destroying the nation of Israel before the end of the Daniel 8:13-14 prophetic timespan of 2,300 years. In Luke 14:31-32 Jesus describes the Judgement of the Kings of the earth and Israel's seeking of God's terms for their repentance so as He/God can begin gathering them to Himself and begin teaching them on the foundational truths that will come down out of heaven during the time of these kings and will become the largest religion on the earth after that time.

This is what the Holy Spirit is revealing to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear what God's prophetic words are telling us today.

Sadly, God's prophetic words do not give us chapter and verse as you would like them to be, by identifying all of the players that will be involved in His end time prophecies.

May the Lord provide you with spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear so that you can see God's plans unfold before you.

Shalom

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Wow, more nonsenses. Even @LoveYeshua brought this foolish! This clearly makes the methodological issue even clearer!

Jay, this is becoming a textbook example of the very problem I have been pointing out.

Now you claim that the three unclean spirits like frogs in Revelation 16:13–14 are supposedly the 9/11 attacks?! And Armageddon is supposedly coming around 2044–2045?!

Where does Scripture say ANY of that?!

Revelation itself tells us what those “frogs” are:

“They are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth…” — Revelation 16:14

That is Scripture interpreting its own symbol. But nowhere does John say New York City, September 11, 2001, airplanes, the World Trade Center, Kathmandu, or 2044–2045. Those connections come entirely from YOU with wishful thinking.

And then you dare to say, “This is what the Holy Spirit is revealing to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.”

No, Jay. You are wrong! You cannot establish an interpretation by claiming that the Holy Spirit revealed it to you and then imply that anyone who questions it lacks “eyes to see and ears to hear.” Your interpretation must still be tested by the written Word of God.

You have now connected prophecy with 1926, 1948, the UN, WWI, the Ottoman Empire, Britain, France, the Gulf War, the 2003 Iraq War, 9/11, and finally Armageddon in 2044–2045. Whoa! LOL!

Yet when I repeatedly ask you to demonstrate these identifications from Scripture, you simply cannot.

That isn't Scripture interpreting Scripture. That is world history being fitted into Scripture, followed by an appeal to personal revelation (clearly not from the Holy Spirit) when the biblical connections cannot be demonstrated.

“Eyes to see and ears to hear” does not mean eyes to see CNN headlines inside Revelation.

And you STILL have not answer to the questions about the four beasts of Daniel 7 and beast of Revelation 13. You have stonewalled to answer this directly and attempted to distracted the subject with different prophecies. Grow up!

Selah!

TribulationSigns said:

Wow, more nonsenses. Even @LoveYeshua brought this foolish! This clearly makes the methodological issue even clearer!

Jay, this is becoming a textbook example of the very problem I have been pointing out.

Now you claim that the three unclean spirits like frogs in Revelation 16:13–14 are supposedly the 9/11 attacks?! And Armageddon is supposedly coming around 2044–2045?!

Where does Scripture say ANY of that?!

Revelation itself tells us what those “frogs” are:

“They are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth…” — Revelation 16:14

That is Scripture interpreting its own symbol. But nowhere does John say New York City, September 11, 2001, airplanes, the World Trade Center, Kathmandu, or 2044–2045. Those connections come entirely from YOU with wishful thinking.

And then you dare to say, “This is what the Holy Spirit is revealing to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.”

No, Jay. You are wrong! You cannot establish an interpretation by claiming that the Holy Spirit revealed it to you and then imply that anyone who questions it lacks “eyes to see and ears to hear.” Your interpretation must still be tested by the written Word of God.

You have now connected prophecy with 1926, 1948, the UN, WWI, the Ottoman Empire, Britain, France, the Gulf War, the 2003 Iraq War, 9/11, and finally Armageddon in 2044–2045. Whoa! LOL!

Yet when I repeatedly ask you to demonstrate these identifications from Scripture, you simply cannot.

That isn't Scripture interpreting Scripture. That is world history being fitted into Scripture, followed by an appeal to personal revelation (clearly not from the Holy Spirit) when the biblical connections cannot be demonstrated.

“Eyes to see and ears to hear” does not mean eyes to see CNN headlines inside Revelation.

And you STILL have not answer to the questions about the four beasts of Daniel 7 and beast of Revelation 13. You have stonewalled to answer this directly and attempted to distracted the subject with different prophecies. Grow up!

Selah!

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Really TS, can you show me where God provides all of a prophecy within the Prophecy and provides all of the details to confirm that prophecy.

I have shown where Daniel 7 speaks of a four facetted beast which is an amalgamation of the four beasts in Daniel 7:1-12 but all you want to do is falsely claim that I have not answered your question within the detail level that you want to see.

If you will still be alive around 2044/2045 AD you will be able to confirm whether or not my understanding of the approximate year for the judgement of the kings of the earth at Armageddon is true or not. Until 2046 AD has passed no one is in a position to claim that I am wrong as you are presently doing, without the evidence to back up your claim that I am in error.

In all probability my toes will have curl upwards before that date and as such I will not know whether or not I have made the right prophetic call. Until 2046 AD no one can claim that any of my understandings are wrong with respect to End Time Prophecy.

As of this moment there is no need to continue our conversation any longer.

Goodbye

Jay Ross said:

Really TS, can you show me where God provides all of a prophecy within the Prophecy and provides all of the details to confirm that prophecy.

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I can, but I do not believe you are ready to receive it because you lack spiritual discernment and, more importantly, the proper method of allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture rather than forcing outside events into the text.

Jay Ross said:

I have shown where Daniel 7 speaks of a four facetted beast which is an amalgamation of the four beasts in Daniel 7:1-12 but all you want to do is falsely claim that I have not answered your question within the detail level that you want to see.

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Here is the biblical problem: you have not established from Scripture what the leopard, bear, and lion actually signify in Revelation 13. Instead, you have attempted to force the text into a 21st-century geopolitical framework by assigning these biblical symbols to modern nations in order to make them fit your prophetic system.

That is not allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. That is imposing a modern interpretation upon Scripture. You have not passed the test of Scripture.

Jay Ross said:

If you will still be alive around 2044/2045 AD you will be able to confirm whether or not my understanding of the approximate year for the judgement of the kings of the earth at Armageddon is true or not. Until 2046 AD has passed no one is in a position to claim that I am wrong as you are presently doing, without the evidence to back up your claim that I am in error.

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(Chuckle.) You do not even understand what the battle of Armageddon actually represents. You are expecting a physical war to occur around 2044/2045, when you have not first established that interpretation from Scripture itself.

In fact, from my understanding of Scripture, you do not realize that the spiritual conflict represented by Armageddon is already upon us because you are looking for a future physical event rather than recognizing what Scripture is describing.

And saying that nobody can prove you wrong until 2046 is hardly a defense of your interpretation. The question is whether your interpretation can be demonstrated from Scripture now, not whether everyone must wait twenty years for your prediction to fail.

Jay Ross said:

In all probability my toes will have curl upwards before that date and as such I will not know whether or not I have made the right prophetic call. Until 2046 AD no one can claim that any of my understandings are wrong with respect to End Time Prophecy.

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Don't worry, Jay. I believe you may still be around to trim your toenails, because the Last Day may be much sooner than you think. :-)

But again, your argument amounts to: “You cannot prove me wrong until my predicted date passes.” That is not biblical confirmation of a prophecy. The burden remains on you to demonstrate your interpretation from Scripture.

Jay Ross said:

As of this moment there is no need to continue our conversation any longer.

Goodbye

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Of course. But you still have not adequately explained from Scripture exactly what the four beasts represent, what the lion, bear, and leopard signify, and why their characteristics appear together in the beast of Revelation 13.

Those were the issues under discussion, and simply ending the conversation does not answer them.

So the burden remains with you.

Good riddance.

Earburner said:

I am not going to chase down "the rabbit hole" of your fabrications. Prophetically, the facts of fulfilment of who the Two Witnesses WERE are plain enough in the NT. scriptures.

Surely you do know that no man prior to John the Baptist and Jesus were ever physically born HAVING the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit!! No, not Enoch, Elijah or Moses.

Here is WHY...

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(Yawning...)

Earburner, you are simply repeating the same private interpretation without proving it from Revelation 11. Nowhere does Revelation 11 identify the Two Witnesses as Jesus and John the Baptist, nor does it say that being filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb is the qualification for being one of the Two Witnesses. You created that requirement yourself, not God, and then used it to identify your own candidates.

That is not Scripture interpreting Scripture; that is forcing Scripture to support a conclusion you already hold.

At this point, I see no reason to continue debating the same false doctrine over and over. You are convinced of your flawed interpretation, and I am equally convinced that Scripture does not support it. Definitely!

Selah.

TribulationSigns said:

Here is the biblical problem: you have not established from Scripture what the leopard, bear, and lion actually signify in Revelation 13. Instead, you have attempted to force the text into a 21st-century geopolitical framework by assigning these biblical symbols to modern nations in order to make them fit your prophetic system.

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This claim is not true. I have stated that the beasts are wicked fallen rebelling heavenly hosts, i.e. Angels. I have not linked the beasts so some human manifestation as you want to do. The human manifestations of the four beasts ebb and flow in and out of the influences of the respective beast that they are manifesting at this present time. A 1,000 or so years into the future, this singular beast that rises up out of the sea of humanity cannot be linked to the manifestations of the four heavenly winds that are the respective beasts of today. The four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 join together to form a singular beast after the rise up out of the Bottomless Pit.

TribulationSigns said:

(Chuckle.) You do not even understand what the battle of Armageddon actually represents. You are expecting a physical war to occur around 2044/2045, when you have not first established that interpretation from Scripture itself.

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I have suggested that this battle is described by Christ in Luke 14:31-32 and it is a physical battle that Israel can see happening near them.

Perhaps you may want to provide a different understanding to what Christ taught, or what Paul wrote concerning when all of Israel will be saved.

TribulationSigns said:

And saying that nobody can prove you wrong until 2046 is hardly a defense of your interpretation. The question is whether your interpretation can be demonstrated from Scripture now, not whether everyone must wait twenty years for your prediction to fail.

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You cannot prove my "theory" is wrong until the timeframe I have suggested has pasted. Until then all you can state is that you think that I am wrong in my understanding.

TribulationSigns said:

Of course. But you still have not adequately explained from Scripture exactly what the four beasts represent, what the lion, bear, and leopard signify, and why their characteristics appear together in the beast of Revelation 13.

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I have answered this question. No further explanation is needed simply because you will not recognise the truth of my statements.

TribulationSigns said:

Those were the issues under discussion, and simply ending the conversation does not answer them.

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The burden is on you to disprove what I have posted. Since Rev 13 is still over 1,000 years into the future, your claim that I have not answered your question adequately only tells us that we disagree. The need to solve this conundrum is not an issue that I have to solve as it does not impact my relationship with God at this present time.

A conundrum is a confusing problem, difficult question, or riddle that is very hard to solve.

TribulationSigns said:

Good riddance.

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Your closing remarks reveals more about your character than all of your words of wisdom.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

This claim is not true. I have stated that the beasts are wicked fallen rebelling heavenly hosts, i.e. Angels.

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Angels?! So now the beasts of Daniel and Revelation are literal fallen angelic beings from heaven? Where does Scripture define these beasts as angels, Jay? Chapter and verse, please.

You keep telling me to let Scripture interpret Scripture, so let’s actually do that, student:

Scripture repeatedly uses beast imagery for MEN who are foolish, corrupt, carnal, and without spiritual understanding:

Psalm 73:22 — “So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.”

Psalm 49:20 — “Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.”

Titus 1:12 — wicked men are called “evil beasts.”

2 Peter 2:12 — wicked men are described “as natural brute beasts.”

Jude 10 — corrupt men act “as brute beasts.”

And Paul says:

1 Corinthians 15:32 — “If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus...”

Was Paul physically wrestling with lions, bears, leopards—or, say, fallen angels in Ephesus? Of course not! Scripture itself establishes the principle: wicked men with spirit of Satan represented as beasts!

There is an important spiritual principle here that you are missing. Scripture can identify Satan with a symbol while also applying that imagery to the people through whom his spirit operates. Satan is called the serpent, while wicked men are also called serpents (Matthew 23:33). Likewise, John speaks of “antichrist” and also “many antichrists” (1 John 2:18).

So when I speak of the beast, I am not talking about some zoological animal or a literal angel walking around as a leopard. Scripture shows that the beast as the corporate body of wicked men operating under Satan's spiritual influence. Selah!

That also explains why the imagery concerns the lion, bear, leopard, horns, heads, mouths, etc. These portray characteristics and powers of the beast rather than giving us a geography lesson about modern nation or empire's borders.

And notice 2 Peter 2:11–12 itself distinguishes angels from the men described as brute beasts:

“Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might...”
“But these, as natural brute beasts...”

Yet you simply declare Daniel's beasts to be rebellious angels. Where does Daniel make that identification?

This is exactly why I keep asking you to let Scripture define its own symbolism rather than importing Iraq, America, Britain, France, the UN, 9/11, 1926, 1948, 2003, and now 2044–45, whatever you make up based on world history book into the prophetic text.

My understanding is that Daniel and Revelation portray a spiritual warfare manifested through wicked men under Satan's influence against God's covenant people, starting with Old Testament Israel and then the New Testament Church. Today, the church's final enemy is that terrible beast represents an intensified manifestation of that opposition and deception against the congregation.

Likewise, Armageddon is not something as a future Middle Eastern shootout involving tanks, guns, missiles, and modern nation-states. It is the climactic spiritual warfare involving Satan's forces against God's people. The war of "WORD" coming out of the mouths of the false prophets and christs against the faithful witnesses of God. Selah!

So before giving me another history lesson, answer one simple question:

Where does GOD'S WORD define the four beasts of Daniel 7 as four literal fallen angels?

Not your inference. Not secular history. Not “what was revealed to me.”

Scripture! Chapter and verse! Can you?!

TribulationSigns said:

Angels?! So now the beasts of Daniel and Revelation are literal fallen angelic beings from heaven? Where does Scripture define these beasts as angels, Jay? Chapter and verse, please.

You keep telling me to let Scripture interpret Scripture, so let’s actually do that, student:

Scripture repeatedly uses beast imagery for MEN who are foolish, corrupt, carnal, and without spiritual understanding:

Psalm 73:22 — “So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.”

Psalm 49:20 — “Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.”

Titus 1:12 — wicked men are called “evil beasts.”

2 Peter 2:12 — wicked men are described “as natural brute beasts.”

Jude 10 — corrupt men act “as brute beasts.”

And Paul says:

1 Corinthians 15:32 — “If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus...”

Was Paul physically wrestling with lions, bears, leopards—or, say, fallen angels in Ephesus? Of course not! Scripture itself establishes the principle: wicked men with spirit of Satan represented as beasts!

There is an important spiritual principle here that you are missing. Scripture can identify Satan with a symbol while also applying that imagery to the people through whom his spirit operates. Satan is called the serpent, while wicked men are also called serpents (Matthew 23:33). Likewise, John speaks of “antichrist” and also “many antichrists” (1 John 2:18).

So when I speak of the beast, I am not talking about some zoological animal or a literal angel walking around as a leopard. Scripture shows that the beast as the corporate body of wicked men operating under Satan's spiritual influence. Selah!

That also explains why the imagery concerns the lion, bear, leopard, horns, heads, mouths, etc. These portray characteristics and powers of the beast rather than giving us a geography lesson about modern nation or empire's borders.

And notice 2 Peter 2:11–12 itself distinguishes angels from the men described as brute beasts:

“Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might...”
“But these, as natural brute beasts...”

Yet you simply declare Daniel's beasts to be rebellious angels. Where does Daniel make that identification?

This is exactly why I keep asking you to let Scripture define its own symbolism rather than importing Iraq, America, Britain, France, the UN, 9/11, 1926, 1948, 2003, and now 2044–45, whatever you make up based on world history book into the prophetic text.

My understanding is that Daniel and Revelation portray a spiritual warfare manifested through wicked men under Satan's influence against God's covenant people, starting with Old Testament Israel and then the New Testament Church. Today, the church's final enemy is that terrible beast represents an intensified manifestation of that opposition and deception against the congregation.

Likewise, Armageddon is not something as a future Middle Eastern shootout involving tanks, guns, missiles, and modern nation-states. It is the climactic spiritual warfare involving Satan's forces against God's people. The war of "WORD" coming out of the mouths of the false prophets and christs against the faithful witnesses of God. Selah!

So before giving me another history lesson, answer one simple question:

Where does GOD'S WORD define the four beasts of Daniel 7 as four literal fallen angels?

Not your inference. Not secular history. Not “what was revealed to me.”

Scripture! Chapter and verse! Can you?!

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Ae you good friends with Armour of God. You seem to want to use the same sort of tactic to discredit another member.

This is very sad.

Jay Ross said:

I have suggested that this battle is described by Christ in Luke 14:31-32 and it is a physical battle that Israel can see happening near them.

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Ahh that is a SUGGESTION based on private intepreation, right? You think this is about the physical battle against nation Israel in the Middle East? Is that what you thinking? The Holy Spirit told you this? Sigh.

Okay, why can't you go back to Luke 14 and re-read what verse 25-33 talk about in regarding to the cost of Discipleship. I fail to see how 31-32 have to do anything about physical war against nation Israel?

Wow.

Jay Ross said:

Perhaps you may want to provide a different understanding to what Christ taught, or what Paul wrote concerning when all of Israel will be saved.

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Chapter and verse, please, to make sure before I response. Beside, I bet you may got Romans 11:25-26 misunderstood as well!

Jay Ross said:

You cannot prove my "theory" is wrong until the timeframe I have suggested has pasted.

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Oh yeah, I can! And you are correct that it is your theory. LOL.

Jay Ross said:

Until then all you can state is that you think that I am wrong in my understanding.

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I already did. :-)

Jay Ross said:

I have answered this question. No further explanation is needed simply because you will not recognise the truth of my statements.

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No, you have not—not by the very method you claim to follow: “Scripture interprets Scripture.” What you have offered is far more speculation than biblical demonstration.

You still have not explained the four beasts of Daniel 7 from Scripture. What do the different animals represent? What do the horns signify? Why do the leopard, bear, and lion reappear together as ONE beast in Revelation 13:2—and WHY?

Those are the specific questions I have repeatedly asked, and you still have not answered them from Scripture.

So no, you have not explained these things at all. Try again—this time, let Scripture provide the answers! Not your theories.

Jay Ross said:

The burden is on you to disprove what I have posted.

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Jay Ross said:

Since Rev 13 is still over 1,000 years into the future.

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The prophecies of Revelation 13 is over 1,000 years later. LOL! Clearly you do not understand Revelation 20.

Jay Ross said:

A conundrum is a confusing problem, difficult question, or riddle that is very hard to solve

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Huh?!

I know what “conundrum” means. Defining the word still doesn’t answer the biblical issues I raised. Nice detour, though.

Jay Ross said:

Your closing remarks reveals more about your character than all of your words of wisdom.

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Ha! No, I’m referring to the fact that you said, “As of this moment there is no need to continue our conversation any longer. Goodbye.”

Yet here you are, still replying to me. What happened? Miss me already? Or are you just determined to have the final word? Not happening!

If you’re truly finished with the conversation, then keep your word! Goodbye means goodbye, right?

Shalom!

Jay Ross said:

Ae you good friends with Armour of God. You seem to want to use the same sort of tactic to discredit another member.

This is very sad.

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This has nothing to do with “discrediting another member.” I am challenging your interpretation with Scripture. There is a huge difference. And yes I am "wearing" the Armour of God, Eph 6:11. It is because I believe that:

2Ti 3:16
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"

I am testing your doctrine by the Word of God and will reproof or correct it.

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” — 1 Thessalonians 5:21

If your interpretation is biblical, then Scripture should be able to demonstrate it.

So once again:

Where does GOD’S WORD identify Daniel’s four beasts as four fallen angels?

Chapter and verse, Jay!

That is the question. Please answer it rather than questioning my motives.

Selah!

Earburner said:

The scriptures that I have quoted in this entire thread cannot be argued against, and do reveal the simple facts that the Two Witnesses were John the Baptist and Jesus.

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No one is arguing against the Scriptures you quoted. I am challenging your interpretation of those Scriptures. Quoting biblical passages does not automatically prove that those passages identify John the Baptist and Jesus as the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11.

That is precisely what you have failed to demonstrate. You have made connections and then treated those connections as though Scripture itself explicitly made them. It does not.

Earburner said:

Your attempt to disqualify me as being a reputable, honest and sincere student of God's word, by His Spirit, is not even worthy of my attention.

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I have not questioned whether you are sincere. Sincerity does not determine whether an interpretation is correct. I have challenged your method and conclusions from Scripture. If correction of your interpretation feels personal to you, that does not make the correction a personal attack.

Selah.

Earburner said:

From my view point, it is sad to see you always claiming the requirement of "scripture interpreting scripture",

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Yes, of course! I absolutely insist upon Scripture interpreting Scripture, because the interpretation belongs to God.

Genesis 40:8:
“Do not interpretations belong to God?”

Therefore, when Scripture gives us symbols, figures, and prophetic language, we should search God's Word for how God Himself defines and uses them, rather than assigning meanings to us to figure out based on world news or our own conclusions.

“...but neglecting to endorse it through the personage of the Holy Spirit.”

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I neglect the Holy Spirit? No!

The Holy Spirit inspired the very Scriptures by which our interpretations are tested. First Corinthians 2:12–13 does not mean that whatever interpretation someone believes the Spirit has shown him automatically becomes correct.

You keep saying that you are “comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” Fine—but the comparisons themselves still have to be demonstrated from Scripture.

You cannot simply conclude, “John the Baptist + Jesus = the Two Witnesses,” and then call that the "teaching of the Holy Spirit", and then treat my disagreement as failure to understand spiritual things.

Show that identification from the text. That has been my challenge from the beginning that you have been stonewalled!

Earburner said:

Lol! Since you literally bring nothing to the debate worthy of consideration, to oppose my scriptural presentation by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, I also do agree to discontinue our debating.

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That is your prerogative.

But dismissing my biblical objections as “nothing worthy of consideration” does not answer them. If you choose to discontinue the discussion rather than address the objections and correction being presented, that is your problem.

Earburner said:

My conviction of His Truth lies not with your approval or disapproval, but rather by the Word of God Himself, and by His Holy Spirit within me..

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And neither does my conviction depend upon your approval.

The issue has never been whether you or I "claim the Holy Spirit." The issue is whether our interpretations withstand examination by the Word He inspired. Selah!

The Lord is the Judge, and I am perfectly comfortable leaving that judgment with Him. Meanwhile, our interpretations remain subject to examination by Scripture whether we like it or not.

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” — 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Take care!